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Take Off From Taxiway - Again  
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14090 times:

Is this a common occurence? Twice in four years two Heavy Jets have departed from ANC using Taxiway Y rather than the adjacent RWY 32.

China Airlines did it four years ago. And apparently, on Nov 5, Eva Air had an MD-11 do the same thing.

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7207886p-7119617c.html

Gotta laugh at the Newspaper describing the difference between a runway and a taxiway . . .

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13901 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Gotta laugh at the Newspaper describing the difference between a runway and a taxiway . . .

Made for a good laugh, but it's probably the best way to describe it to the flying public.
Too bad the article doesn't mention what the weather conditions were. Not gonna defend the pilot's decision to depart, but there must have been a reason he and his FO mistook a taxiways for a runway.


User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13750 times:

Maybe it's time for ANC to adjust some signs and light systems....


Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
User currently offlineZakHH From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13721 times:

Hmm... if you take a look at this northward "approach" to ANC... I can understand you can confuse the east taxiway with a runway (it looks rather suitable for takeoffs / landings  Wink ). But imagining a passenger a/c taking off from the west taxiway...  hypnotized 

Btw, here is the "visual approach" (a bit steep maybe  Wink ) for Seattle, heading south - I am not a pilot, but you could mistake the west taxiway for a runway at first glance, could you?


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13629 times:

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 2):
Maybe it's time for ANC to adjust some signs and light systems....

I might have thought so too - except that was done this summer. In preparation for FedEx and UPS and the A380, the Taxiway Y got a complete once over, and 32/14 was resurfaced, remarked and relighted . . . .

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 3):
Hmm... if you take a look at this northward "approach" to ANC...

This picture is 2 years out of date . . . Taxiway Y - to the right of RWY 32 is wider now. And there is a new Taxiway to the left of RWY 32, which can be seen under constrution in the photo you're showing.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13598 times:

Actually, planes are Big Bear City airport in Big Bear Lake, California currently take off from the parallel taxiway as the main runway has been undergoing reconstruction. It is not the same thing as what happened at ANC, but is funny.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13594 times:

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7207886p-7119617c.html

Yes, I have to say I noticed that very interesting description of a runway. Maybe the best place for it is in the EVA/CAL manuals.

At least the MD11 has better takeoff performance than the A340!


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13539 times:

"Runways are the broad concrete expanses where aircraft take off and land. Taxiways are the narrower access roads used by jets and planes to reach the runways for takeoff, or move to the terminal after landing."

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

I almost fell out of my chair reading that one.


User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13444 times:

I wonder why
  • this wasn't detected by ground radar and
  • a/c don't have advanced satellite navigation and electronic airport maps detailed enough to see even at bad weather where you are. Is the big ground navigation screen at the A380 really something found on no other airplane?

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13434 times:

You know, for the intended readers of that article, that's really not that bad of a description. While I may have reconsidered the use of the word 'roads', I think the author did a fine job explaining to the non-flyers what the difference is.

However, this comment: "At least eight times since 1999, aircraft have mistaken a certain taxiway for a runway. Three aircraft actually landed, the Times said, while five changed their flight paths at the last minute" referring to landing gaffes at SEA, speaks to the complacency of the pilots. Whether or not you are flying in IMC or visually, there are many visual and navigational clues to alert you if you're lined up on the wrong stretch of pavement. There's no excuse for ignoring or failing to notice an offset localiser. (Knock on wood that I don't do the same thing in future...)



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1915 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13423 times:

Maybe ANC should widen the taxiway to improve safety  Smile

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4037 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13399 times:

I also agree that for the average newspaper reader, that description was very good and to the point.

User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 666 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13119 times:

Not really funny at all. Remember the Singapore 747 that took off
on a closed runway in TPE a couple years ago?


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13066 times:

Couple of questions about this. First of all, did this happen at night or at day? What were the WX conditions like? VMC or IMC?

I would assume that something like this could only happen during daytime IMC conditions. At night, you have 2 very different lighting systems (white for runways and blue for taxiways), so I couldn't imagine getting those mixed up, even in IMC conditions. The pavement markings are also very different and normally unmistakable, but in IMC conditions, it may have been possible to not see the markings clearly.

Anyone who could let us know what the WX conditions were like, that would be great.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12971 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
. Taxiway Y - to the right of RWY 32 is wider now. And there is a new Taxiway to the left of RWY 32, which can be seen under constrution in the photo you're showing.

That's taxiway "R" on the east side of rwy 32. Taxiway "Y" is the newly constructed taxiway on the west side of 32. I'm afraid it doesn't look like a rwy; it has a big yellow stripe down the middle and for the night flyers lots of blue lights.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12938 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 6):
At least the MD11 has better takeoff performance than the A340!


This has been discussed to death and is just wrong. The 342/343 just climb a bit slower, which is not anymore the case with the 345/346.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12931 times:

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 13):
Not really funny at all. Remember the Singapore 747 that took off
on a closed runway in TPE a couple years ago?

Spot on.

Somebody needs to get fired.

Taxiways and runways have different coloured lights dont they? I dont care what anyone says about an honest mistake - thats not acceptable. If stuff that blindingly obvious is going awry, then who can tell about the harder stuff to spot?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineXJRamper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2460 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12891 times:

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 12):
Not really funny at all. Remember the Singapore 747 that took off
on a closed runway in TPE a couple years ago?

No one is laughing about the incident, they are laughing at the article's description of the difference of the runway/taxiway description.

XJR



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 33
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12694 times:

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 2):
Maybe it's time for ANC to adjust some signs and light systems....

ANC's signage and lighting systems are regulated (just like every other US FAA-certificated airport) by the FAA and its Federal Air Regulations, in this case FAR Part 139. FAA also issues various compliance guidance through its Advisory Circulars. Signage and lighting are both covered in various Advisory Circulars.

I would say pilot familiarity, or in this case the lack thereof, would be the issue here, not signage, and unless it was not functioning at the time, neither is lighting.

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently offlineSkySurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12631 times:

IIRC, when Fargo's main runway was being reworked last year aircraft routinely used the taxiway to land/take off from. Granted, it was extended slightly and there was no ILS available, but they still did it. The viewing enclosure was closed for ages due to safety distances etc, buggers!

Cheers



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineArgonaut From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 2004, 422 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12560 times:

Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 19):
when Fargo's main runway was being reworked last year aircraft routinely used the taxiway to land/take off from

Same thing happens at LGW when maintenance/construction works takes place on the (one and only) main runway. The main taxiway was purposely widened and strengthened to make it possible. I never feel comfortable about it, though--it places the main terminal building more or less right on the extended centre-line.



'the rank is but the guinea stamp'
User currently offlineLoisencroach From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 373 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12422 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 13):
Couple of questions about this. First of all, did this happen at night or at day? What were the WX conditions like? VMC or IMC?

Weather was clear - RVR was runway length and better. It happened at night. The tower is pushing the investigation. Airport 10 was in the vicinity of the "incident", but didn't see anything strange. There is no way to prove it with the CCTV's limited nighttime range.


User currently offlinePilot21 From Ireland, joined Oct 1999, 1384 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 11738 times:

Quoting Argonaut (Reply 20):
Same thing happens at LGW when maintenance/construction works takes place on the (one and only) main runway. The main taxiway was purposely widened and strengthened to make it possible. I never feel comfortable about it, though--it places the main terminal building more or less right on the extended centre-line.

I remember an incident at LGW when they were working on the main runway as well, it must have been about 10yrs ago now, but an Air Malta plane landed on the inner taxiway (the taxiway for the main taxiway/backup runway), it was night time and the pilots got confused with the lights, so it has happened in quite a few places. The question has to be how seriously airports/carriers are taking this type of incident compared to runway incursions? Unfortunately it may take a collision between an aircraft on a legitimate taxiway and one that has mistakenly lined up with the wrong strip before it's dealt with seriously??



Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
User currently offlineCsturdiv From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1449 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 11505 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
Is this a common occurence? Twice in four years two Heavy Jets have departed from ANC using Taxiway Y rather than the adjacent RWY 32.

I know it is not commercial and it is under different circumstances, but several years ago when the idiot mayor of Chicago closed down Meigs in the middle of the night, he had bulldozers and other equipment destroy the runway. In doing this, he stranded numerous airplanes that were parked at Meigs, and they took off from the taxiway.

Craig



Posting from somewhere between KORD and KRFD
User currently offlineQxeguy From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 10765 times:

I like "...used by jets and planes..."
Yup, we got BOTH KINDS up here!



I fly boxes. Boxes don't bitch. Boxes don't barf. Boxes don't get drunk and do a number 2 on the beverage cart.
25 L-188 : Actually China Air tried to use the "K" taxiway from the 32 extension for T/O. Y was still under construction back then so China Air couldn't head no
26 Post contains links HAL : Yep, China Air took off to the west, starting from nearly half way down the taxiway - that's why they clipped their gear on the way out. This new one
27 Scotland1979 : Laughing about that.... how about paint the whole runways neon yellow or orange? help Captains to know the correct ones. $$$ LOL!
28 Post contains images HAWK21M : Don't the Runways have Markings . How was the Weather at the time. regds MEL
29 ACDC8 : Strange how one would not notice the different lighting colors in a situation like this. I'll be very interested to find out the results of the inves
30 EGTESkyGod : In addition, Runway markings are white, taxiway markings are yellow. Even if it was night, and they couldn't tell the difference between green lights
31 ZakHH : Usually, I would say that being a pilot means that you are not allowed to make any mistakes. Never ever. They have to have the highest possible aware
32 Post contains images Csturdiv : The Blues Brother's Bob's Country Bunker of aviation. Craig
33 CosmicCruiser : Sorry but there really isn't any excuse for this. As they say "that's why you get the big bucks" You don't make mistakes like this. Situational aware
34 Goaliemn : Alot of the stranded planes had to get special waivers from their insurance companies to do this, plus the FAA had to issue some waiver as well. insu
35 Gritzngravee : FCO is similar also, RWY's 17R/35L, 17C/35C and 17L/35R, between 17C/35C and 17L/35R there is a taxi way that runs parallel between both sets of runwa
36 Post contains images Haj96 : Can anyone explain me the difference between a jet and a plane? I always thought that´s the same . Well, you learn something new every day . regards
37 Socalfive : AND, there were TWO pilots simultaneously making the same mistake. So much for Redundancy. As mentioned in previous posts, China Air, EVA Air, Twice
38 Okie : I have been to SEA several times as a passenger and I have always wondered why the heck they put taxiway "T" out on the west boundary of the airport.
39 Bobnwa : If you were writing an article for a newspaper about this incident, how would you describe the difference between a runway and a taxiway.
40 Post contains images MD80fanatic : I can see it now....speed bumps for all taxiways.
41 Arrow : The average A.netter would write this in such convoluted aviation jargon that no one without a pilot's license would know what the hell he/she was ta
42 Jush : Well you may get confused with taxi-/runway on a photo taken from above or whatever but if you're actually on it it shouldn't be a problem to determin
43 Nudelhirsch : One thing is the approach. You have the charts and (if visible) the lights, but you know exactly what you go into. SEA supposedly has in ILS system an
44 Loisencroach : They denied it immediately after departure.
45 Post contains images Boeingfanyyz : I'd love to see the A380 try to pull a quick one like the EVA MD-11!!! Cheers, Boeingfanyyz
46 Asqx : Taxiway Tango was built as part of the 3rd runway expansion at Sea-Tac. Eventually there will be an 8,500ft runway to the west of the taxiway. Since
47 L-188 : I am going to get in trouble with this, but I have my doubt about how effective CRM concepts have been integrated into Asian carriers, particlarly th
48 Loisencroach : I took CRM last semester. You're absolutely right....Asian carriers have a higher "cockpit gradient" because of their culture, which makes the concept
49 GQfluffy : The Good Ol' Blues Brothers...Boys...Airlines...
50 Trex8 : at least it wasn't a 773 or 772LR then! From AWSTs annual source book 2005, FAA field lengths- feet type gross wt-lb TO landing A343 609K 10450 6432
51 Ariis : Excuse me, but what is so funny? I don't quite get it. FAO
52 Crjflyer35 : I understand the necessity to "dumb it down" for the general public, but did anyone else think ramp or apron when he described the runway as a broad
53 Pipo777 : Relax, if the investigation finds that the aircraft actually took-off from the taxiway...most likely the pilots will get their license taken away and
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