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Largest "Market" In US  
User currently offlineLetsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6588 times:

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but after reading some heated discussion on another thread, I would like to know what US city metropolis has the largest O/D market.

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11208 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6572 times:

If it's not NYC, I'll eat my hat. (Actually, I won't.)


Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4364 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6549 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

NYC is the largest O&D market in the U.S.


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6542 times:

I think it goes in the same order as the top three cities...

NYC
LA
Chicago

-IR


User currently offlinePetazulu From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6501 times:

no doubt NYC. I can't believe that would not be obvious to most anyone. Largest metro area by a mile, busines capital, tourist capital, international gateway, etc...

User currently offlineLetsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6476 times:

Thank you, everyone, for confirming what I thought.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32603 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6466 times:

Quoting Petazulu (Reply 4):
no doubt NYC. I can't believe that would not be obvious to most anyone. Largest metro area by a mile, busines capital, tourist capital, international gateway, etc...

One could easily argue it is Los Angeles. Firstly, two of NYC's largest O&D markets, Boston and Washington, get just as much rail travel as they do airplane travel, that right there cuts into the numbers. Considering that NYC is in a much more dense region than LA, and closer to many other large markets, like Philadelphia, Boston, etc., air travel might not be as crucial a need. I'm not saying NYC isn't the largest, it probably is, but it wouldn't shock me if it was LA.

[Edited 2005-11-16 06:37:53]


a.
User currently offlineTsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 628 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6315 times:

NYC metro area (LI, Northern NJ, Ct.,Westchester,Rockland etc.) has approx 21 million people...I can't see it not being NYC...

User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6785 posts, RR: 34
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6243 times:

NYC by a lot, actually.

The catchment geographically is about as large as LA, but the population density is far more.

Also, from an airline planning standpoint, please bear in mind that MARKET SIZE is not synonymous with city/MSA size or population.


User currently offlineDartland From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6189 times:
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Exactly. NYC by far, but I wouldn't be surprised if places like MCO and LAS were very high on the O&D list even though they have much smaller populations (compared to places like ORD and ATL, which have such high transfer volume, but may have lower O&D traffic).

Anyone know?


User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6128 times:

Los Angeles Markets:

Burbank
Inyokern
LAX
Long Beach
Ontario
Orange County

New York City Markets:

JFK
La Guardia
Newark

Washington D.C. Markets:

Baltimore
Dulles
National

It can near easily be found that Los Angeles is the largest "market" in the United States. New York is close, yet the number from the Los Angeles area airports are greater than those of the New York area airports. One thing to take into consideration are the throngs of flights from Asia which rely near solely on LAX O/D traffic. Part of the Los Angeles regions huge numbers are due to Southwest Airlines Focus City at LAX, and sizeable operations at Orange County, Burbank, and Ontario. From which all Southwest Airlines LA area airports operate 3-4 hourly flights on a North-South California corridor, and East-West Las Vegas/Phoenix corridor.

Please review the following link if you have any questions as to why New York City isnt even on the map!

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2005/bts052_05/html/bts052_05.html

Scroll to nearly the bottom and review the following:

-Table 4: Top 10 Airports Ranked by January-August 2005 Domestic Enplanements.
-Table 7: Top 10 Airports Ranked by August 2005 Domestic Enplanements.


KAHALA777

[Edited 2005-11-16 17:57:19]

User currently offlineCOfaninBOS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6110 times:

Funny how you choose every airport possible for your LA coverage area but leave out quite a few for the greater NYC area...

Where is Islip on Long Island?
Where is Atlantic City?
Where is New Haven?
Where is Westchester County?


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6094 times:

Kahala777, you keep saying NYC isn't the largest Metro Market. It is.

Read:

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab03.pdf

It's metro area, people-wise, is 5 million larger than that for L.A. And that's from the Census Bureau, dude.


User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6094 times:

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 11):
Where is Islip on Long Island?
Where is Atlantic City?
Where is New Haven?
Where is Westchester County?

Read the FAA statistics....

Islip, ask anyone and they will say that Islip is a gateway to Long Island, not New York City. Southwest Airlines has never once advertised Islip as a New York gateway. If you included all the airports within an hour and a half from Los Angeles, Los Angeles would be on top of New York with ease.

Atlantic City, is not even near NYC, it is closer to Philadelphia than New York. In addition Atlantic City has and never will be associated as a gateway to New York City.

New Haven, is it even worth it to add the near zero number of passenger movements?

Westchester, well you could add Westchester, then again it has embarassing numbers when compared with the Los Angeles region!

KAHALA777


User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6078 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
Kahala777, you keep saying NYC isn't the largest Metro Market

We are talking about aviation arent we?  sarcastic 

Read the "aviation" statistics:

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2005/bts052_05/html/bts052_05.html

Doesnt a discussion on "population" belong in a non-aviation forum?  yes 


KAHALA777


User currently offlineCOfaninBOS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6069 times:

Dude, you stretch the truth to fit your argument more than any other poster on here.

I don't care if Southwest doesn't market Islip as a "gateway" to Manhattan, it is an airport that serves people who live in Metropolitan New York City! get back to me when you think the people who live in Garden City, Hempstead, Amityville, Babylon, Massapequa, etc... think they live in a metro other than New York.

Funny too how you suggest that normal folks would fly into Orange County as a gateway to Los Angeles but someone from Queens or Brooklyn might not make the trek out to Islip to fly WN down to Florida.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9490 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6063 times:

Quoting Petazulu (Reply 4):
no doubt NYC. I can't believe that would not be obvious to most anyone. Largest metro area by a mile, busines capital, tourist capital, international gateway, etc...

Here are the top 15 largest metro areas as of the 2000 census for reference:

Rank Metropolitan Area April 1, 2000
1 New York--N. NJ--Long Island, NY--NJ--CT--PA CMSA 21,199,865
2 Los Angeles--Riverside--Orange County, CA CMSA 16,373,645
3 Chicago--Gary--Kenosha, IL--IN--WI CMSA 9,157,540
4 Washington--Baltimore, DC--MD--VA--WV CMSA 7,608,070
5 San Francisco--Oakland--San Jose, CA CMSA 7,039,362
6 Philadelphia--Wilmington--Atlantic City, PA--NJ--DE--MD CMSA 6,188,463
7 Boston--Worcester--Lawrence, MA--NH--ME--CT CMSA 5,819,100
8 Detroit--Ann Arbor--Flint, MI CMSA 5,456,428
9 Dallas--Fort Worth, TX CMSA 5,221,801
10 Houston--Galveston--Brazoria, TX CMSA 4,669,571
11 Atlanta, GA MSA 4,112,198
12 Miami--Fort Lauderdale, FL CMSA 3,876,380
13 Seattle--Tacoma--Bremerton, WA CMSA 3,554,760
14 Phoenix--Mesa, AZ MSA 3,251,876
15 Minneapolis--St. Paul, MN--WI MSA 2,968,806



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently onlineAloha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2354 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6046 times:

Overall NYC is a bigger market with all of its airports, but I am pretty sure that LAX is the #1 O&D airport.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6026 times:

Quoting Aloha73g (Reply 17):
but I am pretty sure that LAX is the #1 O&D airport

It is Los Angeles....


KAHALA777


User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6008 times:

Quoting Letsgetwet (Thread starter):
I would like to know what US city metropolis has the largest O/D market.

Dude... The thread starter... Dude

The question was O/D... Not Census!... Dude

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 15):
Dude, you stretch the truth to fit your argument more than any other poster on here

Dude.... Read the thread starter... Dude...

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 15):
Funny too how you suggest that normal folks would fly into Orange County as a gateway to Los Angeles but someone from Queens or Brooklyn might not make the trek out to Islip to fly WN down to Florida.

Orange Coutny has and always will be a gateway to the Los Angeles region. Orange County, if you dont recall, is neighboring to Long Beach, of which Jet Blue has its Los Angeles area base. In addition you forget Orange County is the gateway to some of the Los Angeles regions most affluent areas - Laguna Niguel, Laguna Beach, Newport Beach, and Costa Mesa. You may want to tell the people at Jet Blue that they dont fly to the Los Angeles region. They may want to rethink their marketing...  sarcastic 

You may actually want to visit New York City, for once in your life. Your remark shows at how you have a severe lack of knowledge about New York City and the airports in its buroughs. La Guardia, is in Northern Queens. JFK, is on lower Queens, bordering on Kings County (Brooklyn). No I do not know one person that would drive past La Guardia, or JFK on their way to get to Islip...  sarcastic 

KAHALA777


User currently offlineCOfaninBOS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6003 times:

Kahala-

Your own statistics work against you.

Here are the passenger numbers for 2004.

37,518,143 JFK
31,947,266 EWR
24,435,661 LGA

93,901,070 three airport total

60,688,609 LAX
9,272,394 SNA
6,837,337 ONT
4,916,800 BUR
2,926,873 LGB
1,367,804 PSP (I'll even give you Palm Springs)

86,109,817 for LA area airports.


User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 5976 times:

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 20):
Here are the passenger numbers for 2004.

37,518,143 JFK
31,947,266 EWR
24,435,661 LGA

93,901,070 three airport total

60,688,609 LAX
9,272,394 SNA
6,837,337 ONT
4,916,800 BUR
2,926,873 LGB
1,367,804 PSP (I'll even give you Palm Springs)

86,109,817 for LA area airports.

You gave 2004, not 2005....


The year 2005 has brought Jet Blue at Long Beach to double its operation.

The year 2005 has brought Jet Blue to Burbank.

The year 2005 has brought additional American Airlines operations at LAX.

The year 2005 has brought additional Continental Airlines operations at LAX.

The year 2005 has brought additional Delta/Song operations at LAX.

The year 2005 has brought additional Delta operations at BUR.

The year 2005 has brought additional Southwest operations at LAX.

2005 from what has been said, is a banner year for the Los Angeles region, without the advent of Palm Springs.

KAHALA777


User currently offlineCOfaninBOS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5975 times:

Kahala-

You are wrong. The numbers simply don't lie. Thanks for playing.

Additionally, you might want to wake up to reality. If you think people who live in Laguna Beach are more connected to downtown Los Angeles than the people in Suburban Long Island are to Manhattan, then you need more help than I could even imagine.

Do you know that Queens and Brooklyn are located ON LONG ISLAND? There's no body of water that seperates the boroughs from the suburbs. They are physically adjacent and the communities are connected via the Long Island Expressway as well as via commuter rail.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6785 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5974 times:

Game, set, match for NYC.

Again, I'll remind everyone that market size is not predicated on population.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4000 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5955 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 19):
The question was O/D... Not Census!... Dude

That's right, O&D. Not the connection inflated numbers that appear on airport statistics. The tables on the BTS website are good for nothing in this case.
I suspect not only NY is the largest, but when it comes to travel dollars, it beats by a very large amount L.A. because of much greater premium traffic.


25 Timz : The questioner asked about O&D passengers, and nobody has quoted him any O&D numbers yet. As I recall has them somewhere, but I forget where. If anyon
26 Post contains links MAH4546 : The US Census totally redesigned metro definitions. They are now: 1) NYC - 18.6M 2) LA - 12.7M 3) Chicago - 9.2M 4) Philadelphia - 5.7M 5) Dallas - 5
27 COfaninBOS : Kahala- Are you 12? There were nearly EIGHT MILLION more passengers at JFK, EWR, and LGA in 2004 than the 6 largest LA area airports combined. Additio
28 Kahala777 : Los Angeles is and has been one of the top O/D in the U.S. for a number of years. Los Angeles is not a "connecting" airport like Newark or JFK for Con
29 Post contains links Timz : Looks like LAS is the largest O&D airport, if I'm reading this right (1st quarter 2005): http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/domfares/tab7051.txt (Looks
30 SRT75 : With all due respect to Kahala777 and all the Kahala777-bashers, nobody has actually answered the question -- largest O/D market. I am familiar with L
31 727EMflyer : Lets move this away from NY and LA. How about Las Vegas and Orlando? Look at the statistics Kahala quoted. The statistics are for enplanements.... whi
32 N770WD : O&D Passengers, YE 1Q 2005, DOT Report. Figures are per day, origin and destination only, non-directional. New York area: LGA 121,092 daily passengers
33 Kahala777 : N770WD, Great information, where did you find it? I would be very interested to see what other figures they have as well! 727EMFLYER, It has been said
34 COfaninBOS : If you do the math, then the 3 major NYC airports handle 4,506,420 more O & D passengers a year than the top five LA area airports.
35 Kahala777 : To my error, you have made your point. Very understandable. However, it is amazing that LAX handles the numbers of Newark and La Guardia combined and
36 COfaninBOS : Because Southwest offers really cheap fares. Additionally, on WN's own website, you'll find that the airline does market Islip as a way to NYC. There'
37 Kahala777 : What you are saying makes perfect sense. However, Angelinos, fondly refer to Orange County as the most relaxed of Los Angeles areas. Hotel companies
38 MAH4546 : Thanks for the info. Do you have a link? If your gonna include MHT and PVD for BOS, though, then adding ISP and HPN for NYC and PBI in for Miami woul
39 Post contains links N770WD : I use Seabury APGdat, an airline planning tool. APGdat automates access to route and network information, sorting and presenting data for schedules,
40 Dartland : Actually, MHT and PVD are considered part of the Boston-Metropolitan area by the US Census, and definitely draw people from Boston as alternative airp
41 Lemurs : I know there is no scheduled service out of TEB, but the amount of private charter traffic that goes out of there is scary. I know VNY has almost twic
42 Letsgetwet : Thank You for settling this argument N770WD ! Nice job.
43 Blackhawk144 : IAD is a solid 1 hr. 30 mins. to 2 hours from Washington DC, I suppose you wouldn't count that? Anthony
44 Post contains images Kahala777 : What mode of transport do you have? A Ford? KAHALA777
45 MAH4546 : Correct, it doesn't draw much from MIA. However, it draws a lot from FLL and visa-versa, probably in the same range that PVD draws from BOS.
46 STT757 : Not to start another argument but last February I wanted to visit the new Air and Space annex at IAD, I left my home in Central New Jersey at about 9
47 N1120A : If you are going to include IYK in those totals, you have to add in OXR, SBA, BFL and others. The main Los Angeles area airports are LAX, BUR, LGB, O
48 AA777 : It took me 35 minutes to get from IAD- to Washington DC today....... its 1.5 hours if you're in a traffic jam. Take it from a washingtonian who drive
49 DarthRandall : Tupac and Biggie are dead, people! Give it a rest already.
50 SkyHigh777 : IAD is not 1.5 hrs from Washington, DC. As stated, it takes about 35 minutes...but traffic can really get horrendous on the beltway. I live in Potomac
51 Post contains images Vegasplanes : Table 7: Top 10 Airports Ranked by August 2005 Domestic Enplanements Excel | CSV Aug 2005 Rank Airport Name Aug 2005 Passengers Aug 2004 Rank Aug 200
52 Post contains images Rampart : I've been a LA metro resident (North Hollywood) and NY metro resident (Essex and Morris Counties in NJ), so I'm familiar with what might be considered
53 BigB : depends where ya at in CT. Where I'm at, PVD or BDL are my main airports.
54 PlanesNTrains : Very nice. It was amazing how the "tone" changed as soon as you posted the numbers. Thank you! -Dave
55 Travelin man : I am surprised the Bay Area (SFO, OAK, SJC) is not up there.
56 Timz : Those O&D counts in reply 32-- they're international and domestic, total? Total of both ways, arriving plus departing? Daily average for the year ende
57 N770WD : It should have been -- my apologies. No wonder Dulles looked high compared to the rest -- it's after SFO/SJC/OAK. SFO 89,444 OAK 69,974 SJC 51,509 To
58 ModernArt : The numbers from post 32 seem inflated. (NYC) 311,127 x 365 = 113.5 million posted elsewhere that NYC handles approx 94 mil/pax per year. What's the d
59 Vega : O&D ORIGIN 1Q2005 (10% DOT Sample) Domestic Only "ATL","Atlanta, GA: Hartsfield-Jackson",648286 "BOS","Boston, MA: Logan International",486857 "BUR","
60 Timz : So you multiply those figures by ten to get the domestic origin-or-destination total for the 90-day period?
61 Vega : I think the DOT is even confused about these numbers. My suggestion is to use them only as a "relative" relationship between airports/cities. For exa
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