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A350 From A330 Bad, 744-748 Good?  
User currently offlineWdleiser From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 962 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7088 times:

Why does it seem that all the Airbus bashers thought the A350 was/is going to suck balls because it is not a new developement, but rather a new version of an older model with new engines and fuselage structure?

Yet, now we have the 748 and the Airbus haters are talking about how much less the 748 is in developement cost, and how it is going to be such a great plane.

Yet, the 748 is in the exact same boat as the A350 is. They both come from previous models.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the 747, it's the first plane I got to fly Jumpseat in, it is what I want to fly some day. Now, this A vs. B war... seems like Republican vs. Democrats here in the states. You just dislike the other sides aircraft just for the sake it is not made by your "side".

I mean, does it take a 17 year old Highschool student to point out how immature A.netters are? I mean, I am positive most of you are older than me and have more experience with "real life" than I have.... yet when it comes to A vs. B you are all children.

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8977 posts, RR: 39
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7065 times:

It's not "bad."

The b787 is 100% new design, the A350 is not. The B748 does not really have any competitor in it's class to worry about. If Airbus came out with a 100% new design (a la B787) to compete with the new 747, then the B748 would be in serious trouble.

Cheers

Edit: Airbus says the A350 is a 100% new design, but it uses materials that are a bit heavier than the B787, though it MAY offer a few advantages (cost/maintenance?) over the 787s materials - we'll have to wait and see.

[Edited 2005-11-16 23:47:32]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7030 times:

This is what Airbus had to say about the 747-800

Quote:
Airbus officials say they're unimpressed by the new 747 jetliner, noting that the only launch customers are air-freight companies. "It's not a surprise that Boeing is going forth with a counter to our product, but it's very clear to Airbus that our customers are looking for far more than a warmed-over '60s design," says Airbus spokeswoman MaryAnne Greczyn. "What is putting the A380 so much in demand is its economy, technology, comfort, and flexibility. Adding a few rows to an old airplane isn't gonna be a big draw."

http://businessweek.com/innovate/content/nov2005/id20051116_370967.htm

The more things change the more things stay the same...


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6964 times:

The 748 isn't Boeing's answer to the A380. They aren't that stupid...this is nothing more than a stop-gap until Boeing decides what they want to do for the VLA market. OTOH, Airbus has given every sign that the A350 IS their answer to the 787. So, in short, I'd say you're topic was correct.

Airbus A350'd the A330 to compete with a brand-new, revolutionary product.

Boeing A350'd the 744 to keep in hopes of making a few sales to current 744 customers while further research is done on the market.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6945 times:

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
Why does it seem that all the Airbus bashers thought the A350 was/is going to suck balls because it is not a new developement, but rather a new version of an older model with new engines and fuselage structure?

Suck balls aren't exactly the words I would use...

The criticism of the A350 is that it does not match the high degree of technology in the 787. Airbus has opted for an Al-li fuselage rather than composite, bleed-air versus electric systems, basically derrivitve versus all-new. It's debateable if this was a good long-term decision. In 2018, perhaps not going all-composite on the A350 will seem like the A340 quad-configuration in hindsight.

The 747-8 and A380 are not quite in the same position. The A388 will remain much more advanced than the 747, but technology isn't a slam dunk here. Because the A380 is optimized for a larger A389, the A388 isn't the most efficent it could be. This opens the door for the 747-Adv. Airbus set efficency targets to cream the 747-400, but with modest improvement, Boeing can close this gap:

1. Studies show the 747 is most structurally efficent with a modest stretch, the 747-8 takes advantage of this. The 450-seat 747-8 will weigh almost 100,000 lbs less than the 550-seat A388.

2. While the GP7000 and T900 are modern engines, the GEnx features some crucial improvements. This will give Boeing an edge in SFC.

As you know, stretching an aircraft improves opperating economics. Combine with new engines and minor aerodynamic improvements, and Boeing hopes to replicate A380 economics (or better) in a smaller package.

On the other hand, the 787 and A350 is a case of (roughly) same-sized aircraft trying to edge out the other.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6907 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 2):
but it's very clear to Airbus that our customers are looking for far more than a warmed-over '60s design

LOL! My, isn't that language familiar. Referring to a '60s design is dumb anyway. It's an '80s design since it is based far more on the 744.

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
Yet, the 748 is in the exact same boat as the A350 is. They both come from previous models.

Yeah, it's funny isn't it. I don't think the fact that the A350 was a "warmed over A330" was the cause of the scepticism. It was how that warming over was going to improve performance compared to what Boeing was offering in the 787 (except among the rabid dogs). If Boeing weren't going way out there with CFRP fuselage and used some more conventional advanced materials, then the situation would be analogised to the A320 vs 737NG situation.

The A320 was a conventional aircraft (and don't give me crap about FBW; it's not that big a deal) of a conventional size, so applying new technology to warm over an old design, the 737, would be competitive. The A380 is a conventional aircraft of unconventional size so applying new technology to warm over an old design, the 747, can also be competitive. The 787 is an unconventional aircraft (except among those whose knowledge of aircraft amounts to identifying tail fins) of conventional size, so applying new technology to an old aircraft, the A330, was not necessarily going to offer the same competitiveness.

When you have a conventional aircraft, an evolution of older work, then evolving an existing design offers more prospects. An unconventional aircraft, a revolution, makes things more difficult for existing designs to be evolved to be competitiveness.

That being said, since Airbus increased the temperature of the warming over and moved it into a slightly different market, it allows it to compete well in a different way.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6852 times:
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Even if using a "warmed over A330" as the basis for the A350, is it not somewhat correct to note that the A350 serves somewhat the same role for Airbus as the 747-8 serves for Boeing?

The A330 is the better plane then the 767. That and Boeing's complacency cost them a number of orders and customers, who went with the A330 over the 763 and 764.

The 787 is the better plane then the A330. If Airbus was complacent to just do nothing, then they would risk seeing A330 sales dry up as customers and orders went to the 787.

Boeing "warmed-over" the 747 with a few versions to try and keep some customers in the family. Airbus did the same thing with the first few versions of the A350. Neither one resonated with their customers.

So Airbus went back and with the latest, really tweaked the A350 design. Boeing did much the same with their latest - the 747-8. Neither is as "gee-whizz" as the leader (the 787 and the A388), however they do offer benefits over their previous models and an incentive to current customers of those models to move forward "in the family". Not most of them, to be sure. Maybe not many of them, but enough to justify the R&D expense and keep the lines open for another decade or more.


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6829 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
The 748 isn't Boeing's answer to the A380. They aren't that stupid...this is nothing more than a stop-gap until Boeing decides what they want to do for the VLA market. OTOH, Airbus has given every sign that the A350 IS their answer to the 787. So, in short, I'd say you're topic was correct.

Airbus A350'd the A330 to compete with a brand-new, revolutionary product.

Boeing A350'd the 744 to keep in hopes of making a few sales to current 744 customers while further research is done on the market.

I dont agree. The 748 is boeings answer to the 380.


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6816 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 7):
I dont agree. The 748 is boeings answer to the 380.

Not necessarily. If someone wants a 500 seater, Boeing knows they will go to the A380 and they know they have nothing to offer to combat that.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6784 times:
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Quoting EI321 (Reply 7):
I dont agree. The 748 is boeings answer to the 380.

It's "Boeing's answer to the A388" in that is the largest plane Boeing has to offer customers. But for those customers who need 470+ passenger capacity, Boeing understands that the A388 is the only game in town. I honestly do not expect Boeing to believe the 747-8I will make a critical dent in the A388's momentum either in the immediate or mid-term (5-10 year) future. Long-term, if VLA proves to be a four-figure niche, then Boeing will scale up Y3 (or launch a specialized Y4) to go head-to-head with the A389 and whatever other A380-based models Airbus develops to maintain their position.


User currently offlineAbba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6701 times:

There are people here on A.net who - and they have written it specifically - are considering the industry as a football match where they are supporting the one team over against the other. This I find plain stupid. Not only do they not have any basis for serious discussion. I also fail to see (unless you are a major share holder or an employee) how it can be in our interest who of the two "wins" (whatever that means).

As citizens of the world it will have a huge impact how this industry develops as it plays a key role (in unison with other industries such as the communication and freight/shipping industry) in promoting the globalization process that is so transforming societies all over the world. The old theme being played ever since the Concord/747: better luxury for the few or cheaper travel for the many still is very important. Which of the two manufactures who at this point in time is promoting either of the two trends (they have changed roles before) is much less significant as to the question: in which direction is the world moving. The sports fanatics simply looses out of this blinded as they are by their narow minded way of looking at things.


Abba


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6701 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
So Airbus went back and with the latest, really tweaked the A350 design. Boeing did much the same with their latest - the 747-8. Neither is as "gee-whizz" as the leader (the 787 and the A388),

I strongly disagree. The amount of vocal members on airliners.net that have a prefference for the 787, have made this the top legend of the site. You can keep repeating the same wisdom, but that does not make it true. Both, the 787 and 350 are yet to fly, untill then and untill the correct data are accumulated, it remains to be seen wether one airplane has an advantage over the other. The same logic applies to the A380 vs the 748.

Again, an al composite aircraft saves a total of 3% fuel costs. The Airbus exist for 60% of these materials, reducing the fuel savings to 1,2%. The rest of the other 40% will be improved materials as compared to todays 767. Reducing the 1,2% even more. The large windows in the 787 will add weight, as compared to normal sized windows. In the end, the A350 has as much change as the 787 to be the better plane.



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User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6672 times:

The differences are the new JumboJet costs a lot less to develop than the A350 and the new JumboJet is aimed squarely between the A340-600 and the WhaleJet while the A350 is aimed directly at the B787/B777-200ER. In other words, the A350 is competing with some of Boeing's best, while the JumboJet is going after a market where Airbus has no competitor.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6633 times:
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Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
Both, the 787 and 350 are yet to fly, untill then and untill the correct data are accumulated, it remains to be seen wether one airplane has an advantage over the other. The same logic applies to the A380 vs the 748.

Fine. But customers believed that the 787 would do what Boeing said it would do, and ordered the plane by the score, while they did not believe the A350 would do what Airbus said it would do, which required Airbus to consistently revise the A350 until "the numbers" were "believable" enough that customers started placing serious orders.

So yes, the A350 may end up being the better plane because Airbus had a solid base to build on, just as Boeing may not be blowing smoke when they say the 747-8 will have lower trip costs and CASM then the A380 because they've spent 30 years with it. But airlines have ordered scores of passenger A388s and have been lukewarm (at best) on New Generation 747s.

And I doubt they've been so dazzled by Boeing and Airbus PowerPoint presentations that they have taken leave of their senses and ordered 787s and A380s because the models of them look cool on their desk.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6595 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
But customers believed that the 787 would do what Boeing said it would do, and ordered the plane by the score,

For a while the 787 was the only aircraft available.
80 aircraft can be unaccounted for (NH and JL) as they never even considered Airbus, due to Japans large investment in the 787, add another 10 ordered by Gordon 'Boeing' Bethune.
The 787 is earlier available than the A350, for those in need of aircraft in the not so distant furure, very important, the Chinese carriers come to mind.



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User currently offlineThorny From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6570 times:

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
Yet, the 748 is in the exact same boat as the A350 is. They both come from previous models.

One difference is that Airbus is trying to play down that their new aircraft is a derivative by giving it a new designation (A350 instead of A330-800 or something) while Boeing is being upfront and giving its latest derivative a 747 model number.


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6549 times:

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
I mean, does it take a 17 year old Highschool student to point out how immature A.netters are? I mean, I am positive most of you are older than me and have more experience with "real life" than I have.... yet when it comes to A vs. B you are all children.

Wdleiser, to experience the truly infantile you need to listen to A and B management and PR people. Compared to them, we are positively adult!


User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6399 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
Again, an al composite aircraft saves a total of 3% fuel costs. The Airbus exist for 60% of these materials, reducing the fuel savings to 1,2%. The rest of the other 40% will be improved materials as compared to todays 767. Reducing the 1,2% even more. The large windows in the 787 will add weight, as compared to normal sized windows. In the end, the A350 has as much change as the 787 to be the better plane.

Manni, where in the world do you get this stuff?! Please, provide your sources for this "information" you have provided.

Quoting Manni (Reply 14):
For a while the 787 was the only aircraft available.
80 aircraft can be unaccounted for (NH and JL) as they never even considered Airbus, due to Japans large investment in the 787, add another 10 ordered by Gordon 'Boeing' Bethune.

So, in order to be fair, we should "unaccount for" any A350 orders from Qatar or Emirates because we know that the 787 was never really seriously considered by them either?


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21589 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6367 times:

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
Why does it seem that all the Airbus bashers thought the A350 was/is going to suck balls because it is not a new developement, but rather a new version of an older model with new engines and fuselage structure?

Why does it seem that all one-sided cheerleaders get all upset and try to equate different situations to make themselves feel better? (it's a both sided phenomenon, but just happens to be an Airbus issue this time around)

The 748 is a derivative meant to grab some more orders for a proven airframe. It's not called the 797 or anything silly like that, and there are no delusions of grandeur that it's somehow breaking new ground in world aviation, since Boeing freely admits it is using 787 and 777LR technology and applying it to the reliable 747 airframe.

The A330 is a great plane. The A350 will be a great plane. Some of us just don't think it is an "all new" plane when it is the same size, shape and basic capacity as the model it replaces.

It is really an A338/9, A330-800/900. A330NG. Whatever you want to call it.

The 737NG doesn't "suck balls" and the A320NG won't either (though if it is the same size and shape as the current A320 and called the A360 anyway, it'll cause the same uproar).

Some just get a little perturbed when a derivative is bandied about as an all new MODEL by PR fools when it clearly ISN'T an all new model. When you claim to be something you are not, you upset people.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6337 times:
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First, I must agree, the A vs. B childishness on A.net gets old fast.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 1):
The B748 does not really have any competitor in it's class to worry about. If Airbus came out with a 100% new design (a la B787) to compete with the new 747, then the B748 would be in serious trouble.

True. The *big* advantage the 748 has is its ability to carry cargo long haul. The An-124 is a gas hog; its simply not cost effective unless its the only thing that will carry the load. While the A380 is going to be great for package delivery companies, its no good to any freighter that has a load that's too tall (or wide) for the A380. With the huge growth of long haul freight... A left open a niche with no offering to unseat the Queen of the skies in freight.

As to the A350, it has a tough game changer competitor to go against. I feel the criticizem its received has been entirely too harsh. Note: the original "warmed over" A330 proposal deserved to be trashed. While I think the A330 is a great plane, by 2010 it will be too out of date to keep in production. (Just as the 757 is a great plane but it was time to shut down the line.)

Lightsaber

ps: Great thread idea, bummer it will grow to 200+ messages that will be more emotion than thought.



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6332 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
But airlines have ordered scores of passenger A388s and have been lukewarm (at best) on New Generation 747s.

Uh, hello! The B747-8 has only been available for 3 days.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21589 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6320 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 20):
Uh, hello! The B747-8 has only been available for 3 days.

And it is meant as a long term cargo platform that is 'also available in a pax version', at least that's how most rational people seem to see it.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAbba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6304 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 17):
Manni, where in the world do you get this stuff?! Please, provide your sources for this "information" you have provided

Most of it is widely published:

"According to Walt Gillette, about eight percent of the twenty percent of the fuel economy is due to the new engines, whose fan diameter is larger relative to the core than on the previous generation of engines. A further three percent improvement is contributed by each of the following features: the advanced aerodynamics, the more efficient systems with less weight, the lower overall structural weight and the optimal sizing, that is, the made-to-measure basic design which, in the case of the 7E7, began with a clean sheet of paper."

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRHeft04/FRH0408/FR0408c.htm

Remember that this is all compared to the 767. The second item - Gillette has later admitted - did not provide the savings anticipated. To compensate, the savings had to be found in other places (I don't know whether this has been achieved by now or not). Also, the article gives reason to doubt that the last item will yield its thee percent. Gillette makes points out that the dimensions of the 787 are as much defined by the airlines' whims (and one might suspect) rather than optimal design considerations.

What is still very interesting is that such radical new design as the 787 introduces only yields a 3 percent fuel saving! Also, that it is the engines that provide most of the savings.

Abba


User currently offlineGrantcv From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6275 times:

If the 747-8 is a warmed over '60s design based on the original 747, then why isn't the A350 a warmed over early '70s design as it is, however remotely, based on the A300?

User currently offlineRJ777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6206 times:

I hate to point out the obvious, but the 350 is meant to be a new airplane, where as 748 is only supposed to be a derivitive. Am I missing something here?
RJ


25 Grantcv : The A350 is promoted as a new plane while the 748 isn't. But both are derivative aircraft.
26 PlaneDane : Yes, Abba, but what you have provided here disproves what Manni was trying to make us believe.
27 StuckInCA : Wow. My eyes tend to glaze over and I get really bored when people start the who sold more games, but this takes it to an entirely new level of absur
28 Post contains images Manni : -Advanced aerodynamics, will be onboard the A350, if not better. -Optimal sizing, the A350 will be smaller in width than the 787, but future a wider
29 Centrair : I remember somewhere someone said that the 747 was originally suppose to be for freight as it would be replaced by supersonics. Well we don't have sup
30 Killjoy : While I agree with some of your points, we don't know anything about the aerodynamics and what Airbus had to compromise on due to it being an A330 de
31 Dhefty : Well, perhaps they do. In the next twenty years, however, there very well may be an equal market for a 450-seat passenger quad with excellent cargo c
32 Astuteman : Absolutely. FWIW I think the 74-8 will be getting orders that the 744F would have gained anyway, due to the innate quality of the original concept. (
33 AirbusA6 : Isn't there a difference, in that the 748 is based on a plane (which in passenger form) is effectively dead - when was the last passenger order for th
34 KLMCedric : I'm in the same camp as the people who believe the A-380 and 747-800 compete in the same league.
35 SparkingWave : Differences worth noting: #1 Airbus claimed that the A350 was a "new design, new plane, etc.", not a derivative of the A330 (although we know better)
36 Abba : Interresting post! Would you say that Air France, British Airways , Lufthansa et al should go all Airbus? How come that a Boeing deal with Fuji Heavy
37 Sebolino : The war of words between the 2 manufacturers is understandable: they try to earn the maximum market shares. When it's between so called aviation enth
38 Post contains images FlyAUA : It's called being biased (on a.net aka cheerleading/bashing) Almost... How much of the B748 will be advanced materials? Emirates told Boeing they wer
39 Post contains images BoogyJay : Well, looking at the money spent on the A350 ($5Bn) vs the B747-8 ($1.5Bn) and even the the B787 ($8Bn), it's not far fetched to say "the A350 is an
40 Post contains images Stitch : I should have been clearer when I said "Next Gen 747" - I am referring also to the 745 and 746 from 1996 and the 74G/74X from 2000. And Bush just hon
41 Wiggidy : ENOUGH with the 7478 doesnt compete with the A380 arguments. Even Mullaly stated publicly that it IS a competitor. Despite size difference and what th
42 Astuteman : Except the 747-8 is nearer $4Bn, perhaps?
43 N79969 : Negative. This is not Coke versus Pepsi rather it is Betamax versus VHS. The A380 and 748 are head-on competitors. Boeing's message is not "buy our V
44 Post contains images Francoflier : Well, what can we say... You guys' got yourselves a hell of a great diplomat...    Now about the A350 not being a brand new design, I think it's as
45 Icarus75 : I've only one thing to say : GREAT POST!!!
46 BoomBoom : Don't planes compete on at least two levels. 1. Pax capicity 2. Range The 787 can compete with the A380 in range. An airline could deploy two 787s on
47 N79969 : I meant to say that they are "not" head-on competitors.
48 FaroeFlyer : I, for one, love airplanes. I just love them. All of them. From the ultra-lights to the heavies. I admire all the manufacturers. I can't believe my ey
49 Post contains images Amy : well said. Boeing and Airbus have both stated that the 747-8 freighter and the A380 freighter will do battle. Whilst the A380 may be larger and have
50 Post contains images Stitch : People do need to look beyond the flag on this site and forum. It's not quite so cut and dry that one can make blanket generalizations. Not all Ameri
51 Post contains images Slider : Great post, Ikramerica... True, but it might for some when you consider the advantages of having a known A/C that doesn't require airport re-engineer
52 FaroeFlyer : Because we are not having a logical discussion here, Amy. No matter what Boeing does, some Boeing lovers are gonna praise it. And that goes for some
53 BestWestern : Thank you - its really great to see that a high school student can see this, whilst so many more cannot... These childish discussions have to stop. B
54 BestWestern : And you show your maturity by launching a personal attack! Dont you think that your arguement is strong enough to not need a personal attack at the e
55 Shenzhen : Its not a personal attack, its a term used all the time to state that had he been around in the aviation world 5 years ago (his youth), then he would
56 DAYflyer : I think both the A-350 and the 747-8 suck wind. Airbus and Boeing should have developed all new aircraft in both cases.
57 UairFokker : Aircraft are great. All of them. I think the A380 is beautiful, and I love it. The 747, well, it is incredible, it is a 747. The same happens with the
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