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Will AA,CO,DL Ever Buy The 747?  
User currently offlineGarri767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7275 times:

they are the few majors that i know dont have a 747 in their fleet, i know co used to after purchasing people express, but have retired it, any hope out there?

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7264 times:

Will they purchase the 747 again would be a the right title?

With the 747-8 it would be kewl to have 20 orders from AA!


User currently offlineB741 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 716 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7255 times:

They have operated them in the past but now they don't. I would have to say a big no on this one.


Being Bilingual, I Speak English And Aviation
User currently offlineFA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7252 times:

AA used to have 747s ..


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User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7246 times:

No.

They are way too big for the networks of American, Continental, and/or Delta.

While all these airlines could probably fill 747s profitably here and there, on some routes, some days, some seasons, none could consistently fill enough flights year-round to justify the huge costs associated with introducing a new type so foreign to any of their fleets.


User currently offlineJay767 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7238 times:

all three operated them at one time,unless something changes in air travel not one of those three will ever operate the 747 again.


User currently offlineGarri767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7230 times:

Quoting Jay767 (Reply 5):
all three operated them at one time

i never knew delta operated 747s.....

Garri767 Big grin


User currently offlineGarri767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7200 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
They are way too big for the networks of American, Continental, and/or Delta.

what about for the trans-atlantic routes? they all operate them one way or another..


User currently offlineLetsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7183 times:

CO has come to the conclusion that bigger is not better, and I think they are on to something.

User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7183 times:

NW still has some 747's, mostly freighters.
Yes, AA operated 747's (and DC-10's) for a number of years in International as well as Domestic USA transcon and Hawaii services. Over the years, the 767's and 777's replaced them as to international and long haul USA services.
CO had 747's for a few years from their buyout in 1987(?) of PeopleExpress when they failed.


User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3303 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7173 times:

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 6):
i never knew delta operated 747s.....


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"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5274 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7157 times:

Bob Crandall decided years ago that AA would not buy any airplanes that had 4 engines. That incresed the cost of maintenance.

So that precludes both the 747 and the A340.


User currently offlineGarri767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7138 times:

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 11):
747 and the A340.

so apparently the avro, is off their list too?  Wink lol

Garri767 Big grin


User currently offlineMHTMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7129 times:

CO was an original operator of the 747. Used them mainly to HNL. Somwhere in my collection of emphera is a Venture magazine with an ad intoducing the service...artwork by Peter Max... First Class lounge was the Diamond Head Room, Coach lounge was the Polynesian Pub

User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7128 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
NW still has some 747's, mostly freighters.
Yes, AA operated 747's (and DC-10's) for a number of years in International as well as Domestic USA transcon and Hawaii services. Over the years, the 767's and 777's replaced them as to international and long haul USA services.
CO had 747's for a few years from their buyout in 1987(?) of PeopleExpress when they failed.

NW has been phasing out the 742's for quite some time now. They still fly a fair number of 744's, though I'm not 100% sure of the numbers.

AA had a small fleet of 747's back in the 70's. Bob Crandall, however, was notorious for his hatred for the aircraft because of its high operating costs. I believe at one time he called the 767 the "747 killer."

CO first aquired 747's in the early 70's in hopes the Nixon Administration would grant them rights to fly to the South Pacific. Despite heavy lobbying by Continental, the routes were awarded to American. CO was then stuck with these big white elephants that they flew on their US-Hawaii routes for a brief period before they got too expensive and were removed from service. CO boasted that their 747 only had something like 280 seats on them which would have driven the cost per seat-mile through the roof. The later ones I believe were inherited from People Express when they merged.

Back then, the prestige of flying these beamoths sometimes outweighed their practicality. Other airlines who flew them besides DL were National, and Eastern (EA's aircraft were leased from Pan Am.)

Addendum: I'm speculating here, but my guess why the big airlines (particularly in the US) haven't gone for the A-380 in huge numbers is they remember their experiences with the 747. It's a totally different industry these days, and is so competitive they can't afford to be capricious with costs the way they once were.

Charles, SJ

[Edited 2005-11-17 05:26:39]


The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7128 times:

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 7):
what about for the trans-atlantic routes?

What about them? AA, CO and DL all do quite well with just a mix of 757s, 767s, and 777s. No 747s needed.

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 7):
they all operate them one way or another..

???  Smile


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7122 times:

All three AA, CO, and DL don't have the routes that require a B747 size aircraft. The B787 seem to be a much better fit.

User currently offlineGarri767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7101 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
???

i meant they all operate transatlantic routes one way or another


User currently offlineAirEMS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7099 times:

IMO I think that all three carriers are happy with their 777 fleets I don't know if Delta is in a position to order new a/c while in chapter 11 and I think no matter what shape the A.net forum says CO or AA are in I would venture to say they don't want to make big splashes is a pool that could be growing shallow quickly....... again IMO

Fly Safe
-Carl



If Your Dying Were Flying
User currently offlineJay767 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7085 times:

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 6):

i never knew delta operated 747s.....

Now you know they did Big grin



User currently offlineGarri767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7077 times:

Quoting Jay767 (Reply 19):
Now you know they did

lol sorry my memories a bit dazed since 1976 :P


User currently offlineJay767 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7061 times:

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 20):
lol sorry my memories a bit dazed since 1976 :P

Well I was born in 1973,so I can't remember even that far back,who am I kidding I can't remember last week  Yeah sure



User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6991 times:

I would hate to be throwing some negative thinking around, but I don't think that really the 747 will be with many US carriers in the future. UA and NW are the only US carriers operating 747s now. UA uses them on their high density routes to Europe and Asia but otherwise they go 777. NW didn't get ETOPS until they started operating the A330, if I am wrong, please correct me. But since they did Trans-pac and transatlantic, the DC10 and 747 did the job well for them.

For the longest time these two were the only U.S. carriers with significant operations to Asia (kind of still are). So they needed large planes to meet the demand. They also have coveted 5th freedom to Japan which was needed as planes could not make many flights past that mark. The 777 made it possible for frequency and one could bi-pass NRT, but still the 747 was needed for the longer routes like ORD-HKG. Next we have the 787 which will allow frequency with a smaller plane and more destination possiblities without needs for tech-stops or 5th freedom rights. This could allow airlines like DL, AA and CO to compete with UA and NW on point to point routes. As a result of this, the 747 becomes over kill and could be too much of a plane for the frequencies.

You could see NW actually get rid of their 747s and replace all of their routes with frequency using 787s. DTW-NRT could go to triple daily with 787s. MSP-NRT could maintain doubles with 787s. DTW-NGO/KIX could go to Doubles with 787s. Then NW takes massive advantage of their 5th freedom. They could also just start flying over NRT making the 747 unneccessary. Right now NW is using 757s and A330s on their thinner NRT-Asia routes. The 747s are only doing the super heavy. But with 787s these could be North America direct or frequency.

Now the only thing that could make the 747 viable in the future with any U.S. Carrier would be the North America-Australia routes which are not as yet able to get ETOPS. But as UA is the only U.S. Carrier with non-stop US-NZ/OZ flights they will need to keep the 747 in sights. Once twins get ETOPS on the North America-OZ/NZ, airlines will choose to fly those planes to save on fuel and maintenance costs.

The only other thing that could keep the 747 viable in my opinion is slot restriction or extreme demand that an airline MUST use a plane larger than a 777.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6965 times:

Quoting Garri767 (Reply 7):
what about for the trans-atlantic routes? they all operate them one way or another..

Nope...twin jets with ETOPS make the most sense on these routes. CO and AA even run 757s.

Quoting MHTMDW (Reply 13):
CO was an original operator of the 747. Used them mainly to HNL

Also SEA-NRT, and MEL-AKL and AKL-SYD in the late 80's. Burnt meatball across the pond!


User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6935 times:

All three carriers have operated the 747.

If they could be operated profitably, they would still be in the fleet.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
25 COSPN : Been there done that..for CO ..2 Engines burn less than 4...there are very few routes that it can do...only EWR-TLV would make sense and EWR-NRT mabe?
26 Lemurs : It seems to me that if any of them were seriously considering or in need of a 744 or 748, they'd already have ordered or be considering the 773ER. The
27 United Airline : NW's B 747 fleet is quite large and they operate both the B 747-200 and 400. Also to Australia Doubt it. Many of NW's routes need the capacity of the
28 Tsaord : i thought nw would one day faze out boeing and be an all airbus fleet....?
29 Garri767 : not in a while thanks to their massive DC-10 fleet. but i too can see them phasing out the 747 .
30 Kkfla737 : America West actually acquired some 747 IRC for possible flights to Asia which never took off in mass. I believe HP may have flown the 747s to Hawaii
31 Drerx7 : Only U.S. carriers with sizeable ops in Asia really need 744s i.e. NW and UA. The next carrier up would be Continental--but they will focus on the 787
32 Copter808 : All this discussion about 747 operating costs seems to be looking back at the present series of aircraft, not the 747-8. We don't know what the operat
33 Tjwgrr : I flew on two of them back in April of 1982: LAX-HNL, and HNL-DFW. I do remember our LAX-HNL flight was AA flt 1. Route was JFK-LAX-HNL. We hooked up
34 N276AASTT : With the new 777LR coming on line, these airlines can pretty much get to where they want with two engines vs four. It would be more practical to order
35 Post contains links and images Nosedive : Don't go into the photo database much, do ya Garri View Large View MediumPhoto © Frank C. Duarte Jr. AA acquired these birds after they bought A
36 CHRISBA777ER : Its a case of customer driven operational strategies. The US Majors favour frequencies over size because thats what (they perceive) the US customer wa
37 Drerx7 : Well--DL only has a couple because of contract issues if I recall. However, you are right--the 787 is what I'd bet the future DL would base its long
38 BigOrange : Definitely! The production line at Woodford was closed after 9/11, and is now used for rework on the Nimrods (another 4 engine airplane designed on t
39 Post contains links and images Iluv747400 : If the 777 can do EWR-HKG (which it does for CO), then it can do ORD-HKG. UA flew the 777 already on LAX-AKL before withdrawing from the route entire
40 Da man : CO could possibly get the 747-8 if LHR was opened up from the Bermuda II restrictions. EWR-LHR and IAH-LHR, plus EWR-TLV and possibly EWR-NRT.
41 Post contains images JFKLGANYC : I can never understand why many European carriers make the 747 work over the Atlantic while US carriers can not. Granted, even European carriers are s
42 PHLBOS : The speculative answer for that is probably due to the frequency of flights. As a whole, do the North American carriers fly their trans-Atlantic rout
43 DC10rules : KFLLCFII, Very cool pic of the DL 747. I know DL has flown widebodies between ATL and Florida for awhile. Did they ever use the 747 for these routes?
44 N62NA : They flew them into JAX of all places!
45 BoomBoom : They ordered the 787, so they intend to operate a mixed fleet.
46 AirxLiban : IIRC the route was never a success with the 772. Something to do with the lower MTOW on those birds, could someone clarify?
47 Garri767 : i said for them buying it from now on
48 HAWAIIAN932 : Delta used to fly the 747 ATL-LAX. Back in the early 70's, CO's 747's had a "pub" in coach where you get snacks and popcorn etc. CO also used 747's on
49 WesternA318 : Back in 1990, I got a chance to fly the HP 747-200's. Once from Phoenix to Honolulu via LAS and then on PHX-IAD for an equipment substitution
50 Post contains images RogerThat : Don't forget the SP. AA got 2 old TWA 747 SP for DFW - NRT service. After the MD-11's showed up, the SP's did JFK to Europe duty. How I miss the stubb
51 United Airline : I strongly doubt they will ever order the A 380 or the B 747-8. But again only time can tell.
52 2travel2know : If one of AA, CO, DL would get the dormant 5th rights for Brazil-Southafrica flights that UA once got from Pan Am and never have used it; then they su
53 BAW716 : In a word? NO. The 747 now or the 747 as it will be is too large an aircraft for all of the aforementioned airlines, with the possible exception of NW
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