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CO FA Paycuts.....  
User currently onlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4048 posts, RR: 8
Posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4297 times:
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Not a big surprise but an agreement was not reached. A final bargaining session has been scheduled for Dec. 7 and 8 in the offices of the NMB in Washington, D.C. If no agreement is reached on those dates, the NMB has stated that it will consider releasing the parties from mediation into a 30-day cooling off period. At the end of that period, the company would be able to implement needed wage and benefit reductions, and the flight attendants would be able to strike


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

Let them strike. Their whining and crying over possible paycuts since last spring, while the rest of us took cuts, is a disgrace. What's worse, is many of them took out their frustration at someone DARING to ASK them for a paycut on fellow employees. I don't know how many times this past summer I heard f/a's bitch about paycuts they hadn't even taken, and how poor some of their attitudes were this summer over something they hadn't even gone through.

I think a good deal of our f/a's do a very good job; but I'm tired of their crying and bitching. They're not irreplacable, and they should take a cut like the rest of us, or go find a job where they're guaranteed not to every take pay cuts.


User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

Funny if you follow aviation history. I do believe now that everyone else in the business has taken a pay cut, the CO Flight Attendants are now the highest paid. After all the things they had to go through in the 80's and 90's I guess they deserve the money. But it is pretty sad to be the only employee group who does not give up something and that will usually create some tension.


Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-11-18 18:23:32]


Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offlineNyskymasters From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
Let them strike. Their whining and crying over possible paycuts since last spring, while the rest of us took cuts, is a disgrace.

Have you taken the time to ask what it actually is that the flight attendants are resisting in the concessionary contract? Working with these men and women every day I have come to understand WHY they are resisting and it is not just to be a bunch of hard nosed bitching flight attendants. If the same things had been asked of the pilots then we would not have agreed to our agreement.

So before you go around calling people of bunch of names why don't you, apparently as a fellow employee, take a moment and ask them why they don't get onboard with the rest of the employees. You might be surprised what kind of management we are now dealing with.

Oh, and by the way, I don't think anyone has ever mentioned the S word.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3989 times:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 2):
After all the things they had to go through in the 80's and 90's I guess they deserve the money.

Whatever happened in 80s or 90s is irrelevant to how much they should be paid. The relevant part is that United is hiring new flight attendants to pay less than 20K a year and was flooded with applicants.



Stop pop up ads
User currently onlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4048 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3986 times:
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as were we at CO.................


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3956 times:

Hmmmm, so the cooling off period ends Jan 7th or 8th? Thank god... I am flying from HKG back to EWR then to BOS on the 5th. Whew.

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3933 times:

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 3):

They're not onboard because many think they're irreplacable, and can't see the reality of the industry today. They're acting like babies, whining all the time about paycuts they haven't taken.

One way or the another, they will, and I can hardly wait to hear how much they'll bawl over that. They should just stfu, do their job, and remember that someone is always willing to take their job if they don't want it.


User currently offlineCoa764 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 328 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 4):
The relevant part is that United is hiring new flight attendants to pay less than 20K a year and was flooded with applicants.

The IAM should take a long hard look at the volume of applications that UAL received as well as the actions of NWA in lieu of their pending F/A strike. I bet CO has looked at this contingent too and has a back up to hire and keep the fleet running (wouldn't surprise me if they had a replacement pool already trained via a third party that no one knows about yet). Thing is that F/A do not require a certificate to work from the FAA so replacing them is easy.. Pay cut now or no job by Christmas. Tough call on their part for the strike vote but don't look for to much sympathy for your cause from the rest of the employees who have been living with wage and benefit cuts of their own for some time now.

[Edited 2005-11-19 00:26:04]


Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21582 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3856 times:

If replacing the F/As brings a higher level of service to the airline with more enthusiastic workers at a lower price, which the F/A hiring frenzy at UA seems to indicate, then it would be in the best interest of CO to be hardlined on this. If the new F/As would be unreliable, then it wouldn't.

As it stands now, most CO F/As are service oriented. But I am flying them at Thanksgiving and Christmas, and it will be interesting to see if the attitude changes. Depending on how they behave, I'll have one view or another by January on whether they deserve to keep their jobs.

Last thing I would want as a CO elite is for the F/As to have the cuts forced on them and have them take it out on their pax for the next years. Other airlines have had this happen, and elites start to bring their loyalty to the competition.

As the customer, I expect that the employees leave their attitude for their own time, or they should be replaced. The fact that unions help prevent such actions are one of the main reasons I'm not a fan of unions.

Lots of people don't like their jobs, or think they should be paid more, but it doesn't give anyone the right to treat a third party, especially the customer, poorly. People talk of loyalty, but that's a two way street. Nobody should be rewarded for being a loyal jerk.

So we'll see what happens.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineNyskymasters From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
They're not onboard because many think they're irreplacable, and can't see the reality of the industry today. They're acting like babies, whining all the time about paycuts they haven't taken.

I always thought you were more educated than you appear to be here. Once again, it appears you haven't found the reason as to why they are balking. I am not sure what you do for CO but everybody that has taken cuts has complained about it. This is natural. But I am happy to say that very few spout such nastiness.

Once again, before you stoop to such a low level as to call people names why don't you just get all available facts.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13522 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3754 times:
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Thought: If DL and CO have a strike at the same time...

Unlikely. But a thought.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3753 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
They're not irreplacable....or go find a job where they're guaranteed not to every take pay cuts

We all know (pilots, f/a's, rampers, CSR, management) that we aren't irreplaceable (you know, Google offers a free spell checker on their toolbar). No employer guarantees a "pay-cut" free environment.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
They should just stfu, do their job, and remember that someone is always willing to take their job if they don't want it.

Maybe you should take some of your own advice. Worry about yourself and let "mom" and "dad" take care of us.

No doubt there are thousands lining up to take the job, but after 6 months, 1 or 2 years on the job, how many are left? What is the turnover rate? Anyone able to answer that? The funny part is how "easy" the job seems, until you actually start to live it. As a matter of fact, why don't you come on-board the f/a bandwagon? It's got to be easier than what you are doing now. You probably could have a career as a f/a and do something on the side.


User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
Thought: If DL and CO have a strike at the same time...

Unlikely. But a thought.

Are we talking about flight attendants? If so, then it isn't unlikely. It's impossible, seeing that DL flight attendants do not have a union.

AAndrew


User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

The position of the Continental flight attendants puzzles me.

The vast majority of them started their careers "Post-Lorenzo" and have been treated very well throughout their career. They make really good money today.

The company needs these cuts. I'm surprised they are being so difficult. Of course, nobody likes paycuts. They need to do their share to help the company through these extremely challenging times.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineGilligan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 14):
The company needs these cuts. I'm surprised they are being so difficult. Of course, nobody likes paycuts. They need to do their share to help the company through these extremely challenging times.

My understanding is that it's not the company, it's f/a's own union that is the problem. The union wants to take control of the f/a's pension plan which is an extremely bad idea. But on the other hand, it's been 7 months and I haven't heard a whisper about the fa's trying to throw the union under the bus either. So imo both the union and the f/a's are to blame for the continuing situation. As such, when I'm in the lot, I exact my small amount of revenge. If the f/a can't lift his/her own bag on the bus, oh well, pack it lighter next time.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21582 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3652 times:

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 15):
My understanding is that it's not the company, it's f/a's own union that is the problem. The union wants to take control of the f/a's pension plan which is an extremely bad idea

This is ALWAYS what the unions really want. ALWAYS. It's been that way since before Hoffa went missing.

Controlling a pension fund is very, very, very, very lucrative, and because the Union bosses are money grubbing crooks, it is all they care about. If union members realized this, they would either dump the union or take it back with new leadership to actually represent them.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3582 times:

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 10):
always thought you were more educated than you appear to be here.

Oh, please, give me a break. I'm tired of their whining, like they're the most put-upon group in the world of aviation. Have them talk to their compadres at other carriers, who have had cut after cut after cut-and they have the nerve to cry before they even get a cut. Spare me the lecture.

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 10):
I am not sure what you do for CO but everybody that has taken cuts has complained about it.

Gee, no kidding. No one likes it, but many f/a's obviously feel they're better than everyone else, and shouldn't have to do their fair share during tough times. It's really pathetic.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 12):
As a matter of fact, why don't you come on-board the f/a bandwagon?

Why don't you keep such nonsense to yourself? I don't want to be a part of a union; I don't want to hang out with a bunch of whiners, who feel they're better than everyone else at the company; I don't want to associate with people who let their bitterness affect their job.

I worked gates this summer, and I was appalled at the constant complaining so many of them have-and they had no shame, complaning about what they hadn't taken-a paycut-and knowing full well we had.

Join that bandwagon? Sorry, not in this lifetime.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25691 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3568 times:
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Quoting Aa757first (Reply 13):
DL flight attendants do not have a union.

Do workers need a union to go on strike? Can;t they just - go on strike?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
If union members realized this, they would either dump the union or take it back with new leadership to actually represent them.

I am extremely happy with the pension I get from the WGAW. Most writers are.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Why don't you keep such nonsense to yourself? I don't want to be a part of a union; I don't want to hang out with a bunch of whiners, who feel they're better than everyone else at the company; I don't want to associate with people who let their bitterness affect their job.

I see, your just going to share your bitterness and whining here on the board. If you think we are currently letting this affect our job, you've not seen anything yet. You obviously weren't here in the Lorenzo days.


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3447 times:

Let them strike. Their whining and crying over possible paycuts since last spring, while the rest of us took cuts, is a disgrace.
*****

The part that really sucks in all this is that IAH Fa's voted yes on the original deal, CLE only missed by 4 votes, but EWR killed it with a completely one-sided NO vote.

I have yet to ever hear any of the FA's talk of striking, and I do not know any that are against having a paycut either, I just hear that they are wanting to structure it a little differently.

The biggest issue is that the deal affects the junior FA's a lot worse than the senior ones if the original deal passes, and if they structure in such a way that it is good for the juniors, then it becomes bad for the seniors. This is why EWR voted so heavily against the original deal.

I can't help but feel that some out there that are not FA's want them to strike, hence putting that wording in the press releases, but to this day, I have not once heard any FA say anything, or even hint at striking.

J


User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 19):
If you think we are currently letting this affect our job, you've not seen anything yet. You obviously weren't here in the Lorenzo days.

I hope you don't mean taking your frustrations out on our customers.

We as mechanics group complain all the time about taking the pay cut. But we still took it and I hope it works out in the long run. What Falcon seems to be missing is that the F/A's and all the work groups at CO enjoy "bitching" about the company when they get together. Big grin

I hope this situation gets resolved soon and that our F/A's don't lose to much money.



Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
User currently offlineTurnit56N From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3385 times:

I'm going to stand far away from this debate, except for one point. As someone that appreciates the value of a good FA, I have to say that they're really not so easily replaced. Some of the insulting comparisons on this board to waitressing, etc. are simply not true. For this good reason:

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 12):
No doubt there are thousands lining up to take the job, but after 6 months, 1 or 2 years on the job, how many are left? What is the turnover rate?

It is very easy to find thousands who would like to be a FA, as the applications to UA and CO demonstrate. The problem is that many of these are people who think the job sounds fun and will let them travel. They don't fully grasp that the job completely changes their lifestyle. As much as the recruiters try to shock them into realizing what the lifestyle is like, the turnover rate remains very high. There may be a lot of people out there capable of performing the actions of a FA, but there aren't that many people out there willing to live the lifestyle of one. The realities of commuting, living on the road, paying for a crashpad, being tired most of the time, 5:30 am shows, putting up with passengers yelling over delays after a 12 hour day, working weekends and holidays, and not having much control over your schedule turn a lot of people off. That's why CO has been hiring for so long now. A recruiter told me that they needed to go through 300 applications to find one candidate to hire, and that nearly half the time that person would be gone in three months.

So no, it's not going to be easy for an airline to just go out and find thousands of dedicated people to replace their FAs.


User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3244 times:

So many of you just type "STUPID" all the time and have no idea what you are saying. Just for the record. Do you really think that all the resumes United has received for the job are qualified candidates? Remember, all airline personnel must complete a 10 year F.B.I. background check for starters. You'd be surprised how the number will drop just from that. And even though so many of you think F/A's are just unskilled workers, how many would flunk out of training? Sure, the United numbers are high and a lot of people want the job. But, do they qualify at the end of the day?

Safe Flying  Smile



Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
Do workers need a union to go on strike? Can;t they just - go on strike?

With all due respect. I usually always give your posts credit. However, under U.S. Law you must have a union to strike. (Brain fart, perhaps?)

Safe Flying  Smile



Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
25 Coa764 : I bet not even you can answer that but here is another thing to think about while your stapling your cardboard CHAOS sign to the picket. The only req
26 PAS810 : Not knowing, could you elaborate since you seem to be in the know?
27 Falcon84 : This is an aviation board, is it not? So I'll share my point of view as a front-line employee. And yes, I think many are letting it affect their job.
28 Incitatus : The arguments make sense, but if United was concerned there wes not enough applicants, they would've kept it open. But they stopped and they are in t
29 Gilligan : Considering some of the F/A's I've seen on many different airlines, if they are breathing, yes they do. That's obviously overstating it but seriously
30 Sebring : That's as opposed to having an airline go to a bankruptcy judge and have their pension plan terminated? I'd rather allow the union to run it than tod
31 Ikramerica : the entertainment unions work in a closed shop environment, but even then, their recalcitrant nature has led to the production fleeing the US to othe
32 COFreqFlyer : Falcon84, Ikramerica, welcome to my RR list.
33 Post contains images FlyGuyClt : You wonder why the quality is not there with the pay you say Flight Attendants are worth ? DUH ! Safe Flying
34 Post contains images FlyGuyClt : Who said anything about a P.H.D.? Do you have one? You seem to be an expert on EVERYTHING ! I am just stating simple facts. Contact any H.R. Departme
35 Mariner : The cut backs in writing staff are largely due to the advent of reality shows. Most of my producer friends, who used to do a lot of drama, now can't
36 Post contains images FlyGuyClt : Not if they don't have enough staff to go through all of them at once. Safe Flying
37 Letsgetwet : True , but that is 3-5 days for every type of plane they fly. So, if you hurry up and train a bunch of people on just one type, you had better hire t
38 Post contains images FlyGuyClt : To the above poster. THANK YOU. You give me hope for intelligence on Anet. Safe Flying
39 CO767FA : Bingo! We have another "Bingo"!
40 CO767FA : Most people do their jobs "well" and still bitch about it! Stop spouting your Pollyanna dribble.
41 Post contains images FlyGuyClt : Who is complaining? This is an open forum. Not the airplane. We can say what we like. No one is on company time. And you sure aren't the customer at t
42 HunUtazo : ...if the flight attendants pass on the next/last negoiation in december ...the company absolutely will impose a new, much less desirable contract, on
43 Letsgetwet : Nothing new,this has been done for years.
44 HunUtazo : Nothing new, you're restating the obvious...
45 Gilligan : Maybe the pay is what they are worth, ever stop to look at it that way? Or look at it this way. Do shop at the same grocery store even when you know
46 Post contains images FlyGuyClt : Show me some text where I said it was about me ? Unlike you, I don't try to rule the world from my highchair! If you want to talk about me. Well, let
47 Post contains images MX757 : The bottom line is that they are going to take a paycut. They can bitch about it all they want. I prefer they bitch in front of you instead of our cu
48 Turnit56N : I had an interesting conversation with a group of CO EWR FAs the other night on a layover. Interestingly enough, they all said they were willing to ta
49 Falcon84 : I think that's a line of crap they fed you. Junior f/a's don't make a whole lot of money to beging with and saying it would have been 8 grand is nons
50 Turnit56N : They may not make that much, but junior CO FAs make several thousand a year more than first year Express pilots. I was with a couple of Express crews
51 IAirAllie : CO fa's are not the highest paid. Current highest initial pay is NWA followed by World Airways.
52 Slider : Falcon- Usually you and I agree on most labor/union issues, but I have to disagree with you on this one. I believe the general thoughts from the FAs
53 Post contains images AirplaneBoy : Hi Allie! I'll second what you said, only that NWA probably wont be paying any new hires their pre-2001 new hire pay, especially with all of their co
54 Post contains images CO767FA : Hmmmmm.... Hmmmmm........while it is a small error, your seniority changes depending on the mood. If you expect us to trust the credibility of your s
55 Falcon84 : Calling me a liar, friend? Email me, if you work with CO. I'll give you my name and my employee number, and you can verify it for yourself. If you do
56 Randy4920 : Does anyone know whether all of the new hired flight attendants are being hired as replacements, or can they strike as well?
57 TACAA320 : I tend to agree with most of your arguments. Nevertheless, "complain" is a right. And CO767FA has that right, regardless his right or wrong.
58 Post contains images CO767FA : I'm sure my words will come back to bite me, but for now here are yours and I think they apply toward your call for me to "close that yap"! Your rage
59 Post contains images Falcon84 : Then go and work for freaking Ben and Jerry's if you feel that way. When you take a paycut, then maybe you have the right to say that. You have the f
60 Post contains images CO767FA : Ok, we did take cuts, shortly after 9/11, our staffing on the aircraft was cut, we've lost the on-time bonus (as have you), we no longer receive repl
61 Falcon84 : I got the distinct impression you didn't believe I'd been with CO 18 years. I'm offering you a chance to find out the truth.
62 CO767FA : Nope, but I do find it interesting how we all use the seniority number like a peacock shows it's feathers for peahens; we want to stand out among the
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