CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (8 years 1 month 14 hours ago) and read 2921 times:
Just reading now the weekly portuguese newspaper EXPRESSO and the news is ( I'm trying to make the best translation possible from portuguese...
- In 2005, the passengers for european routes of TAP increased 8,2%, highlights are Amsterdam, Italy, Scandinavia and Germany ( taking advantage of beeing member of Star Alliance. TAP wants to widen their european flight network for 2006, generators of income ( touristic traffic ). In Brazil, the increase is 11,3% and the average occupation of Rio and S. Paulo flights is 90%!!!
I personally think these two markets are giving TAP a great income ( Europe and Brazil ), if we take on that the regular figures of Africa, USA and domestic TAP is just ending another wonderfull year!!! Comments will be greatly welcome!
BoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1595 posts, RR: 18 Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 10 hours ago) and read 2767 times:
Joining the Star Alliance and having a code share agreement with UA... I just wonder what TP's upcoming strategy for North America... I mean, no matter what people think... N. Americans have a lot of disposable income and w/ good marketing (tourism, and LIS connections to EU and Africa) it could very well support Multiple routes for TP/UA and possibly AC to LIS. I personally think its time to think outside of a Newark connection, which UA has a very small presence.
So what do you all think is going to happen in N. America?
Also, what is the status of LIS airport? and possible the new airport? I think this is very imperative to the future of TP. You need good infrastructure to support growth and the passangers needs.
RicardoFG From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 10 hours ago) and read 2757 times:
I am very happy to see TP doing well, however I think they have to have a stronger presence in North America and not just in EWR. I hear airliners talk over and over again about how YYZ should stick to charter, etc etc etc...but there needs to be a scheduled carrier going to Portugal out of Canada, plus with TP great connections to South Africa and other points in Africa, the demand would be there! I just find it ridiculous that if I want to go to Portugal sked, I have to fly to LHR, FRA, or AMS when there is hundreds or thousands of Portuguese in Ontario and Quebec...so for anyone who keeps saying there isnt demand for a 3x a week flight, thats bogus!
Brasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11 Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 8 hours ago) and read 2671 times:
Thanks for the figures. TAP chairman in Brazil released some numbers here. Besides that TAP is planing and checking out the market for launching two or three new destinations in Brazil, they said 20% of their pax are Brazilian, 25% Portuguese and 50% European from other countries. As they are facing aircraft shortage, I think they're still going to remain with some A310, as some A332 arrive, what sounds really good.
Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 2): I have trouble understanding why European/Rest of the World airlines can make money consistantly and yet US carriers are nothing but losers...
There are more seats offered in the US market than pax demanding them. It's still usual seeing flights departing almost empty in the US. Load factor in US domestic is still other weak point — too much competition. In addition, European carriers can rely in connections. KLM is a great example, that carries more pax than the poppulation of the Netherlands.
Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 3): Joining the Star Alliance and having a code share agreement with UA... I just wonder what TP's upcoming strategy for North America... I mean, no matter what people think... N. Americans have a lot of disposable income and w/ good marketing (tourism, and LIS connections to EU and Africa) it could very well support Multiple routes for TP/UA and possibly AC to LIS.
Are TP and CO the only airlines flying between the US and Portugal?
TAP used to fly fly to EWR with A343, but downgraded on behalf of increasing GIG. I believe both JNB and the US will see increase from TP in two or three years.
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 2630 times:
First of all I must say that for me ( just my humble opinion... ) the secret why TAP is doing so well is the fact that TAP got deep in the Brasil and South American business because brazilian airlines like VARIG, Transbrasil and VASP started to slide down. Also airlines from Europe like SAS and SWISS or stopped or are flying less. And if we look to TAP network in Brazil they fly a lot of destinations there. I can certainly understand 50% of the traffic are european, they will get anywhere from Europe to Lisbon and then fly direct to one of those destinations..... that's also why the european traffic increased almost the same has Brazil!
Regarding USA strategy seriously in my opinion TAP will keep the daily flight to Newark and will not explore other destinations, if TAP does that they will lose a lot of money competing with big airlines like BA, AF, LH! So I think TAP will be wise to keep that good flight, mainly for portuguese and portuguese community amd portuguese emigrants ( don't forget that TAP get a good feeding from African ex: colonies like Cape Verde, Angola, Mozambique that fly to USA too via LIS ). Maybe TAP will increase in the future to two flights to USA, but other destinations I don't think so!
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 2606 times:
That would be awesome to UA in LIS. I think that would "wake up" both TP and CO! I know that when TW was the "lone rider" in LIS AA almost started a flight from JFK to LIS, but that never happened!
Dirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 2556 times:
Isn't this TAP story all but a ridiculous bluff?
"TAP is just ending another wonderfull year!!! Comments will be greatly welcome!"
"the secret why TAP is doing so well"
Where is the profit - zero? Where is the privatization- none? Where are the new planes - postponed or old A330? Where is labor justice (with a new flight attendant earning 2x what a typical engineer earns)? What about 8500 employees for 35 aircraft - continue there? What about serving the huge portugueses community in JNB with a weekly flight that stops in Maputo - no change until SAA flies to LIS? Why only 3x week to Luanda where demand is much high - to charge $1500 on a return flight? What about a report on customer satisfaction (everyone I talk to say that TAP has the world's most careless F/A around) - continues to be like that? What about an A350 order to be delivered in 2014 (lol) - maybe in 2020 when they start going to the desert?
I believe it's time for everyone to open their eyes and see that what this brazilian CEO is doing is just image: having good relations with unions (which makes things seem to be really good) and having 1 or 2 million Euro/year profits just to say there is a profit (by selling the handling, 20% in Air Macau, etc, etc) which is like being unprofitable for a company of this dimension.
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 51 Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2326 times:
Quoting CV990 (Thread starter): I personally think these two markets are giving TAP a great income ( Europe and Brazil ),
One market: BRAZIL.
Most of TP's growth in Europe is due to the connecting traffic Brazil-LIS-Europe (pax traveling from/to Brazil to/from Europe via LIS!)
Quoting CV990 (Reply 6): the secret why TAP is doing so well is the fact that TAP got deep in the Brasil and South American business because brazilian airlines like VARIG, Transbrasil and VASP started to slide down
Well, again, only Brazil (not South America).
Apart from Brazil, with 50 weekly flights, TP only serves CCS 2 or 3 x week.
Also, TAP is successful in Brazil not because of the demise of VP or TR, TAM and GOL are very strong and profitable, but mainly because of TP's CEO Fernando Pinto (former CEO of RG, and with deep knowledge of Brazilian aviation market) who established TP's Brazilian Northeast market niche.
Before the "Pinto era" TP would only fly to GRU and less than daily to GIG; TP was unprofitable and almost closing down.
TP's growth is closely associate and correlated to its flights to Brazil and the Pinto administration. TP relies on the Brazilian market, so while demand for Brazil remains strong, TP will continue doing well.
Quoting FCKC (Reply 10): Could you tell us which is the route where TAP carries the bigger pax number a year.Not especially the more profitable.
Probably GIG or GRU.
Currently LIS-GIG is TP's most profitable route worldwide; while LIS-GRU (2nd most profitable) has greatest number of pax because TP codeshares with RG (so it sells tickets on two daily flights).
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2291 times:
First of all and answering to Dirkou: I really don't know how to answer to all that bad feeling you have, by your words I assume either two things; first - you really hate TAP and try to find out any clues to say that but there's none! second; you don't read most of the topics we put here and you don't collect information about TAP!
If for the first line I can only accept and I'm not going to argue against you, only to tell you that most of us that talk about TAP live here and know things are going, on the second issue it looks that you don't know much information and you don't know what are you talking about, you say that someone said, you come with some silly information regarding TAP fleet, etc. etc. Please save us from all that frustration you have! Have you ever flew TAP before? Do you know a bit about TAP past and the history they have? TAP is one of the best airlines in the world, they were pioneers in many ways and if you know fly safely and use a lot of benefits of navigation etc. etc let me tell you that TAP gave their help to this too. TAP used to fly Lisboa to Maputo in 6 days using C-47's, one of the longest routes in the world in 1946! TAP was one of the first airlines in the world to personalise the cockpits, that came when they ordered the Caravelle. TAP pilots were one of the first ones to use the so called "attitued flying", something that came in the 50's when the airline pilots were flying over turbulence. TAP was the first airline in the world with an all jet fleet. TAP was considered in 1979 the safest airline in the world. TAP was the 2nd. airline in Europe to operate the Boeing 727 back in 1965. What do you want more? Give me a break! Respect TAP and next time before you talk about some issue that you don't know get information first! What you said about TAP reveals that you don't know nothing about TAP, Portugal and us portuguese!!!
Now answering to Hardiwv - although Brazil is indeed big, I have to consider that this country is infact the most developed, and the economic engine of South America. So TAP get's a lot of their traffic also from other countries around Brazil to fly to Europe. Compared with the rest of South America, flights, traffic, passengers, airlines...... Brazil is miles ahead from the rest of those countries, so for me, indirectely TAP get's a lot of income from those places too!!! And let me say, that's understandable, if we get 90% ocupation there's no way portuguese or brazilians fill TAP planes ( Portugal is just 10 million!!! ) so I'm sure that a good slice of those will be latin americans, europeans and from the rest of the world. I also think that TAP doesn't need to get any other flights to any other places in South America, if TAP get the honor of beeing "the pipeline" from that continent to Europe I'm happy! Now if we want to compare with any other airline in Europe TAP got the biggest slice and that's one of the reasons too TAP is expecting to increase their fleet in the end of 2015 with addicional 4 long-haul A350's!!!
Five weekly flights. Caracas has always been a very important market for TAP. Even though it is only five weekly flights, Caracas has non-stops not only to Lisbon (3x weekly), but also Porto and Funchal, something Brazil does not.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11324 posts, RR: 60 Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2196 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14): Currently LIS-GIG is TP's most profitable route worldwide; while LIS-GRU (2nd most profitable) has greatest number of pax because TP codeshares with RG (so it sells tickets on two daily flights).
Right. TP also keep some very important cargo contracts on GIG. Also Rio keep the biggest portuguese community in Brazil and Americas.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14): Most of TP's growth in Europe is due to the connecting traffic Brazil-LIS-Europe (pax traveling from/to Brazil to/from Europe via LIS!)
Agree. TP offers to brazilian northeast the best way to reach Spain, UK, Italy, Germany, Netherlands and others. Looking to this Tam has just begin a weekly service REC-LIS and it's president announced to American Chamber of Commerce in Recife that they keep under studies a weekly REC-JFK. The TP decision to start a strong operation to/from Northeast were just perfect. If you visit nowadays a resort in the region, a good number of people will be from Europe as Tap opens a new frontier. I expect to see TAP with 2 or 3 more routes to Brazil (2 from LIS 1 from OPO non stop).
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
Airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7492 posts, RR: 11 Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2148 times:
The single most important factor for TAP's turnaround took place when Mr. Pinto came in and TAP started selling through fares between Brazil and Europe. It was baffling for most of us to see just a few years ago, that TAP had such a strong position in the Brazilian market but did not sell it to the rest of Europe. If you wanted to buy a ticket on TAP between AMS and GIG, you had to buy 2 seperate tickets: AMS-LIS, LIS-GIG. And the connections didn't always work.
Dirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2100 times:
CV990: thanks for your answer but it is a little bit strange: bad feeling me?
Come on...this is not a soccer club, this is aviation, a business...no bad feelings. Ok I know that is difficult to understand in Portugal but no problem.
About not knowing TAP: for your information I've flown with TAP more than 100 times.
Anyway the most important is that you didn't answer any of my questions. Maybe you don't have arguments but here they go again in case you missed them:
1- Where is TAP's profit? How much?
2- Where is the privatization (the reason why Mr Pinto is there now)?
3- Where are the new planes - old A330, ex-Edelweiss or ex-Swiss?
4- Where is labor justice (with a new flight attendant earning 2x what a typical engineer earns)? Do you think this is Ok for a comapny that has never given a profit? BTW what do you think about pilot union concessions at UAL, AAL, DAL...shouldn't that also happen at TAP? Why not?
5- What about 8500 employees for 35 aircraft - continue there?
6- What about serving the huge portugueses community in JNB with a weekly flight that stops in Maputo - no change until SAA flies to LIS?
7- Why only 3x week to Luanda where demand is much high - to charge $1500 on a return flight?
8- What about a report on customer satisfaction (everyone I talk to say that TAP has the world's most careless F/A around) - continues to be like that?
9- What about an A350 order to be delivered in 2014?
10- Why is the sale of a participation in Air Macau included in the final finantial results to give a profit? Same for handling. Who knows will be the next.
Pls don't send another emotive message with good/bad, like/don't like and answer my questions directly to see what your real understand of the company is. Let's be simple here.
Dirkou From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 571 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2056 times:
Finally I've started to receive some answers regarding the above and we are starting to discussall this in an inteliggent way (answers on my email).
Here they go:
Some of your comments aren't completly right:
>- "Where is TAP's profit? How much?": 2003 - 19.8 million €; 2005 - 8.9 million €;
Ok. That is great to hear. Anyway were the participations sold in handling and Air Macau included here? What if they were not included?
>- Where is the privatization (the reason why Mr Pinto is there now)?: the current goverment program states 2007, Mr Pinto has always said that TAP needs to be privatized. The previous portuguese goverment lead by Mr. Santana Lopes took a very corageous move by sacking it's representant in TAP's Board, ence give full autonomy to Mr. Pinto team to keep working without governemt interfirence;
Ok I understand and agree. I don't think the problem is with Mr Pinto which BTW in my opinon is doing a wonderful job. The problem is with the general situation: no privatization in the future...still.
>- Where are the new planes - old A330, ex-Edelweiss or ex-Swiss?: TAP will receive 3 A332 in the benning of next year to enable their expantion to brasil (2nd daily fligths to GRU and GIG, and opening new routes to BSB and BEL). Tomorow TAP will annouce in Dubai their acqusition of 11 new A333 and 14 A350. The first A333 will arrive in 2007 and allowing the return of the 3 leased A332;
That is great too. Anyway are the A330 new? Will they replace the A310 or added to the fleet? I also think a flight to BSB would be really interesting.
Thanks again for the person that sent this email. Still waiting for more news so we can discuss this more.
My opinion is that is not "growing steady" like the subject says. It is growing...like any other major european airline in the 5% to 10% range per year - and that itself is not growing but only staying within the market.
Anyway I don't see the basic problems of the airline being solved and that is my point. I see a little profit compared with huge losses before but the main problems are there: too many employees, bad customer service (although turning better with more young crews being hired), flight crews overpaid and most of all resulting from all this and inneficient state-owned carrier.
Waiting for your replies and hope we can have an intelligent discussion here.
AirPortugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3329 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2037 times:
Quoting Dirkou (Reply 21): My opinion is that is not "growing steady" like the subject says. It is growing...like any other major european airline in the 5% to 10% range per year - and that itself is not growing but only staying within the market.
If that is industry standard, then you are right that the title may be a little incorrect.
For an airline that within the past years was concentrating primarily on its Europe routes and some Brazil, this is pretty fast expansion on their part.
Ordering a new aircraft type (A330) and even soon to order A350's (a plane that hasnt even been built yet), this is truly a great move.
On a side note, their was a picture on here the other day that showed an A330 being towed in Germany somewhere that I believe was one that was going to TP...looked pretty worn out from just sitting around!
CV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2035 times:
Sorry Dirkou, because you've flown more than 100 times ( has you said ) that doesn't mean that you know about TAP and TAP reality! Can you give me your logs about those 100 flights??? Now I'm going to answer to your questions and after my answers you'll probably feel unconfortable with them because they will show your lack about TAP real acknowledgement, here they go:
1 - TAP had a profit of around € 40 million in 2003 and around € 15 million 2004
2 - The privatisation is on his way, TAP first had to consolidated some deep strategies like beeing part of a major alliance, fleet renovation and social peace in TAP itself. Don't worry TAP will be privatised and I hope at that time you'll be around to give your feedback about this issue!!!
3 - If you really paid attention to the topics we came about since late September - when one of our portuguese friends came with the news that TAP was going to make decision between Airbus and Boeing until October - the decision was in favour of Airbus! No one doow here gave dates regarding that, just some ideas that TAP would lease first A330's then evolute to A350! Now maybe you are very anxiuous regading that, maybe you think that we can step over A330's every day but that question you asked reaveals that you don't pay attention in what's going on, and above that you confuse a lot about dates, maybe a weakness on your own!
4 - I don't have any idea what you are talking about that! Do you have numbers, salaries that we can compare? Or you just got that from someone that is in TAP and is not happy down there? Please give me your numbers and I'll try to find out with my sources, but please don't "throw thing in the air"!
5 - That's getting better in the 70's/80's/90's TAP had the same number of airplanes and between 10.000 to 12.000, do you think the scale down is not good???
6 - TAP don't have enough planes to serve in a better way, that's why TAP is getting more planes in the future, but south Africa at this moment is not a big money making for TAP, and I respect that! At least TAP is flying there!!! Things chance since the revolution in 1974 you know that don't you???
7 - I think Luanda is well served considering TAP fleet, also TAAG is flying there, and $ 1.500 for a return flight is not true..... let's say $ 1.000! but why don't you compare that with all the destinations in Africa? all the airlines that fly to Africa charge mostly the same amount, you should complain also with the other airlines not only TAP. I have a friend that is from Kenya and he said BA charged him a fortune too! That's a very deep issue and I'll be willing to discuss that with you but TAP is no different that other airlines!
8 - Whe was the last of your "100 flights" you did? I flew TAP last year from LIS/GIG/LIS and I was very happy the way the airline served me, I had everything like the other airlines had. I flew from LIS to KIX with KL and there was no difference between both airlines, so I'm sorry but you are wrong, maybe again one of your friends that had a bad experience once a lifetime! TAP is so good has any other good airline!
9 - Again, you don't pay attention to the topics here! Tomorrow TAP will sign a contract with Airbus for the A350/A330 at Toulouse! Where were you???
10 - I really don't understand what is your point on that!
Tomorrow I'll bring you news about A350 contract, I hope you are around and read what I say about that and don't come maybe another week latter saying that you still don't know about that!