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WN Planning DAL-MCI & DAL-STL For Feb '06  
User currently offlineSWALoveField From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 179 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

I don't post topics like this without a source or link, but in this case and considering the source I got it from, I decided it was OK.

WN is planning on direct flights to MCI and STL to begin February 6, 2005.

With Missouri's exclusion from Wright just about a done deal, other states like TN and AZ may use this as fuel to get exclusion from the Wright Amendment.

With AA meeting with DAL administrators, US Senate hearings on Wright, Republicans (Rep. Joe Barton, Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison - all Wright supporters) losing some power in Congress and in some states and with MO impending exclusion from the Wright amendment, you can almost physically "hear" the dismantling of this law which promotes unfair competition and creates higher prices for air travel for North Texans.

Any discussion on these direct flights from DAL to Missouri? It is a drop in a bucket, but a potentially significant drop. What effects will these flights have?

Robb
Dallas, TX

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

If that doesn't make AA officials met Jack Daniels, I don't know what will.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineGilligan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

So who now has become the 800 pound gorillia?

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 2):
So who now has become the 800 pound gorillia?

If you're implying WN, I'd like to know how two additional routes suddenly make Southwest the "800 lb gorilla." The fact remains:

WN daily departures: 117 (DAL)
AA daily departures: 900 (DFW)  Wow!

Moderate non-Doomsday estimates of a full W.A repeal are approx:

WN daily departures: 150 (DAL)
AA daily departures: 100 (DAL), 700-800 (DFW)

Everything from collapse of an "economic engine," loss of DFW connecting traffic, loss of AA customer base, AA hub-dismantling, WN H.Q. moving, and DFW/DAL mid-air collisions have been thrown around. I don't understand why so many people expect the world to collapse or a flyers-Utopia to flourish just because the W.A. dies.

The politics between AA, WN, and DFW are understandable, but why so many bystanders consider this an "issue"... I'm at a loss.


User currently onlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2241 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 2):
So who now has become the 800 pound gorillia?

What are you actually asking? Or is this a rhetorical question? Which gorilla in which cage?

I think Chimp Air, a new African LCC, has gorillas on their vertical stabilizers.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3058 times:

Quoting SWALoveField (Thread starter):
you can almost physically "hear" the dismantling of this law which promotes unfair competition and creates higher prices for air travel for North Texans.

The W.A. doesn't "promote unfair competition". Southwest can compete from DFW ANY TIME.

One could say it's the other way around. Dismantling W.A. will promote unfair competition because DAL has limited facilities. The incumbent, Southwest in this case, will take as much real estate as possible to prevent other airlines from offering service there. Just like they are doing at Chicago Midway.


User currently offlineStl1326 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3011 times:

I wonder how many daily flights they will offer from both STL and MCI. Does anybody have any ideas? I'm thinking 4 to MCI and 5-6 to STL.

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2994 times:

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 2):
So who now has become the 800 pound gorillia?

In what context? In what arena?

If it's as in the same kind of 850 flight-per-day AA gorilla that stomps on other airlines (like 39-2 AirTran flights over at DFW), no, SWA is not the proverbial gorilla.

If it's as in using its low-cost structure to set low fares (and make a profit at it), yes, SWA is a gorilla in that context.

Which is better for the air travel consumer. the "evil" gorilla" or the "good" gorilla?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
Everything from collapse of an "economic engine," loss of DFW connecting traffic, loss of AA customer base, AA hub-dismantling, WN H.Q. moving, and DFW/DAL mid-air collisions have been thrown around. I don't understand why so many people expect the world to collapse or a flyers-Utopia to flourish just because the W.A. dies.

From a biz article in the 11/19 DMN:

D/FW officials say that losing even a half-dozen flights to Love Field – or hundreds more with full repeal of the Wright amendment – would hurt the larger airport.

North Texas and D/FW "will feel the economic repercussions of degrading the hub," said Kevin Cox, the airport's chief operating officer.


So, a mere 6 flights moving from DFW to Love would "hurt" DFW? Oh, the horror, the absolute horror of it all...  Yeah sure It's statements like those that undermine Cox's credibility to the point where it's expressed in negative numbers.

Another view of the situation, from the same article:

Mr. Boyd, president of the Boyd Group in Evergreen, Colo., said American shouldn't be worried about fighting Southwest from an inferior airport.

Even with a full repeal, American would be force to match some fares, but it already offers low-fare service from D/FW to three-fourths of Southwest's markets

"Nobody thinks they'll destroy a multibillion-dollar hub," Mr. Boyd said of American. "It doesn't make a lick of sense."


AA has three gates a Love, and the MCI/STL stuff aside, I think that with full repeal they'd be nuts to have any more than 40-50 flights a day out of Love (if that many), so all their talking of moving a "hub" to Love is purely sAAbre-rattling in an attempt to scare the snot out of the Love neighbors.

Anybody notice the latest DFW (www.keepdfwstrong) update that expresses "concern" over the effect of the increased Love traffic on Latino neighborhoods etc. etc.? Now, if AA decides to run some Love flights, I guess they too would be affecting these same Latino neighborhoods, but then it strangely is no longer a "concern."

More non-issues and red herrings...


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):
The W.A. doesn't "promote unfair competition". Southwest can compete from DFW ANY TIME.

Don't crap on my plate and call it cake.

1. The W.A. was written all but naming WN as the target with timing that reeks of corrupt dealings. WN had been flying from DAL for 8 years when the W.A. was passed; DFW had been open for 5 years. Then a rapid series of events: commercial aviation is deregulated, AA moves their HQ to the district of Jim Wright, and Jim Wright paper-clips the W.A. to a transportation bill all in the span of one year. Interesting, if not suspicious.

2. Prohibiting WN from long-haul routes allowed AA, DL, and Braniff to occupy DFW in a vacuum free of outside competition. As Braniff and DL collapsed from their own affairs, no counterweight against AA existed. AA grew and grew, unabated, to nine-hundred daily departures, the single largest hub in the world.

No one is stupid enough to trot into this market anymore. B6 side-stepped DFW for AUS, stating it would be some time before they considered DFW. FL gave it a shot, but after heavy AA saturation, halted growth and recently pulled many flights.

Under the banner of fair competition, you honestly suggest WN should to move to DFW? The smartest airline in the world isn't about to hari-kari their 8th largest station any more than AA is going to admit they are an anti-competitive force in the region.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):

One could say it's the other way around. Dismantling W.A. will promote unfair competition because DAL has limited facilities.

No you couldn't. DAL is not a magical oasis with money growing on trees. It only allows WN two things that are of mixed value to other carriers:

1. WN has heavy maintenance facilities and a corporate HQ are at DAL. If they moved to DFW, they would have to go about the expensive process of moving these (something DFW didn't offer in their incentive package) or create a huge overhead in ferrying aircraft/personnel between DFW and DAL.

AA does maintenance at AFW and TUS, their HQ is in Fort Worth. What do they care about associated DAL property?

2. DAL allows shorter taxi time than DFW. This is only of consequence if an airline schedules in a way to take advantage of this.

AA would be at no competitive disadvantage flying from DFW. They have way more modern facilities and more space. AA has optimized their operations to work very efficiently from DFW. AA would simply have to readjust certain fares to compensate for WN's:

- AA would not lose "premium, loyal" customers as WN has no premium product.
- AA would have a larger base of connecting, international, and regional traffic.
- AA is not a geographical disadvantage because DFW is square in the middle of the entire metroplex, DAL is only about 15-30 minutes closer for a portion of the metroplex.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):
One could say it's the other way around. Dismantling W.A. will promote unfair competition because DAL has limited facilities.

Limited facilities both AA and WN agreed to in 2001.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):
The incumbent, Southwest in this case, will take as much real estate as possible to prevent other airlines from offering service there

The 2001 Master Plan limits WN to 20 of 32 gates at DAL. How does a 62.5% share of DAL traffic compare to AA's 84% of DFW traffic?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):
Just like they are doing at Chicago Midway

WN circumvented or sabotaged no one. They were the highest bidder. That's how economics work, buddy.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

If you read post 8, all that info about AA is irrelevant to the topic. The point is Southwest will start carrying some of AA customers between Dallas and KC and Dallas and St. Louis. That's how I see this.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 9):
If you read post 8, all that info about AA is irrelevant to the topic

AA is entirely relevant to any discussion of competition in the DFW market...


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):
Southwest in this case, will take as much real estate as possible to prevent other airlines from offering service there. Just like they are doing at Chicago Midway.

Like AA is sitting on unused gates at Love?
Result: Keeping out competition.

As for Midway, if this real estate WN has now is not currently being utilized, you can bank on it being used very soon in the future.



Delete this User
User currently offlineSwatpamike From United States of America, joined May 2004, 581 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

Hello all

Funny how a DAL to STL/MCI thread turned into a Wright or Wrong thread so quickly. Next someone will make it a B vs A or Peter Max thread.  stirthepot 

Cheers

swatpamike


User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2070 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Well, I guess you can count on AA starting DAL-STL/MCI the same days as well.

User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
- AA would not lose "premium, loyal" customers as WN has no premium product.

That has never been a point of contention! Also when was the last time that American Airlines had so many "Premium, Loyal" clients that they needed to send an aicraft out without a Economay Class section. Dont forget why American Airlines took a digger on the ORD-NGO flight!  sarcastic 

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
- AA would have a larger base of connecting, international, and regional traffic.

Please explain this one! The idea of transferring airports in Dallas of all places appeals to zero audience.

KAHALA777


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 14):

That has never been a point of contention!

It certainly has. Perhaps not living in Dallas you haven't been exposed to the 6-8 years of saber rattling, but the "premium passenger" excuse was made by AA as a reason they would be forced to return to DAL if the W.A. were to vanish. Logic being, DAL is closer to a large percentage of AA's premium frequent-flyers live in the Dallas/Highland Park area.

It's fallen out of vogue in recent months, but I brought it up for the W.A. veterans who endured it through the Legend saga.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 14):
Also when was the last time that American Airlines had so many "Premium, Loyal" clients that they needed to send an aicraft out without a Economay Class section.

December 2, 2000. But who’s counting?  wave 


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Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 14):
Please explain this one! The idea of transferring airports in Dallas of all places appeals to zero audience.

Who said anything about transferring airports? I listed a slew of reasons why AA should stay at DFW and the non-incentive to starting DAL operations. Among these, the modern terminal features that allow AA to efficiently handle connecting, international, and regional traffic.

How did you interpret that people should somehow change airports in all of this?


User currently offlineThegooddoctor From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2316 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
If it's as in the same kind of 850 flight-per-day AA gorilla that stomps on other airlines (like 39-2 AirTran flights over at DFW), no, SWA is not the proverbial gorilla.

LOL! A gorilla is the wrong mammal to represent Southwest anyways - WN is more like a monkey. A monkey is too quick for the gorrilla to stomp on - and he usually doesn't take the food in the gorrilla's hand (instead he steals the food overflowing from the gorrilla's plate!)

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
The politics between AA, WN, and DFW are understandable, but why so many bystanders consider this an "issue"... I'm at a loss.

Much respect DfwRev - I don't know how many AA execs spend their free time posting on this board, but otherwise I fail to see why people are so passionate about this issue.

It seems to me that the WA should be repealed (it's a questionable law to begin with), but moreover it appears likely that once repealed it will make little difference to anyone BUT WN. WN will initiate flights from Love to markets that have an overflow of O/D passengers (LAX, SAN, PHX, LAS, STL, MDW, BWI, FLL come to mind) - and these markets, for the most part, already have the presence of LCC's at DFW.

For AA, there may be some issues because they will feel the need to start competing service out of DAL - logistical complications longer in term and larger in scope than the Legend Airlines fiasco. But in reality the two airlines appeal to a different customer base to begin with. AA's bread and butter is found in it's base of business travellers. Just because WN initiates service to LAX does not mean it is likely that the massive number of AAdvantage members are going to flock to WN. Business travellers like a lot of things about flying a single carrier - things like consolidated frequent flier miles, elite status, first class upgrades, assigned seats, etc. Though the "Southwest Effect" may or may not be an exageration of the economic impact of WN on a market, there is no doubt that Southwest will likely attract more leisure travellers (or business travellers who would not have travelled on a higher fare).

That's my $0.02 -



The GoodDoctor
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