Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Ryanair And Fog- Threat To Expansion?  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

The last week has seen considerable fog-condition in the nothern part of France,Belgium and western Germany.Numerous flights had to be re-routed to sometimes very remote airports (Beauvais rerouted to Hahn -600 Km busride..).
Some of the airports used by Ryanair don't have ILS Cat 3 b,which basiacelly allows bad weather landings with minima-ceiling requirements.
This is not a post to dis-credit Ryanair-pilots,their safety records or anything else that could question the pilot's-capabilities.But the choosing of secondary airports with not alwyas up-to-date ILS infrastructure can cause some serious credibility issue with passengers,stranded in the middle of nowhere and facing a lengthy bus-rides through fog and slippy roads.
Again-Ryanair has an outstanding safety record and never had any major safety issues- but if I consider HHN as major base with some weeks per year of fog without ILS 3b infrastructure - I see potential problems ahead...


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4877 times:

Update from the Ryanair-web-site :

Urgent Information - Last Updated: 21 Nov 05 12:57
Due to low visibility (fog) Frankfurt Hahn, Brussels Charleoi, Paris Beauvais airports our below legal operating limits, aircraft are currently unable to land. All flights operating this morning to Frankfurt Hann, Brussels Charleoi, Paris Beauvais have been forced to divert to alternate airports. While this is outside our control we will endeavour to minimise disruption to schedule. Any passenger effected by a flight cancellation make call our dedicated reservation line at 00353 1 249 7700



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4858 times:

Maybe FR will put some pressure on Fraport to install a ILS Cat 3b instrumentation ? Or is this already foreseen for the expanded (lengthened) runway ?

Not only FR will benefit from this but also those cargo operators using HHN ...

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Beauvais rerouted to Hahn -600 Km busride..).

Would this be a legal enroute-alternate? Or was this new destination HHN already known before the flight plan was submitted?

BTW, in case HHN becomes fogged in, why does FR divert to CGN and not to FRA ?

-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4837 times:

FR will divert to the cheapest airport within range,taking into consideration the rotation of aircraft bach to home-base.
HHN has ILS Cat.3b for one runway-direction,but the Ryanair Boeing 737-800 seem to be fitted with Cat3 a .
So there is a miss-match between infrastructure on some airports ,aircraft and pilot's qualification ( at least some ). Charleroi has only ILS Cat 1 ...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4835 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
While this is outside our control we will endeavour to minimise disruption to schedule.

Well, choosing appropriate airports would be inside their control...

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
Any passenger effected by a flight cancellation make call our dedicated reservation line at 00353 1 249 7700

They'll love their telephone bill some weeks later...  hot 


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7265 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

Cat3a and Low cost airports do not work together in terms of the price Ryanair wants to pay for airport facilities.


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2302 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Quoting HT (Reply 2):
why does FR divert to CGN and not to FRA ?

Maybe because FRA doesn't have any slots available on a 15 minute notice...?



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 6):
Quoting HT (Reply 2):
why does FR divert to CGN and not to FRA ?

Maybe because FRA doesn't have any slots available on a 15 minute notice...?

Well, I was thinking of the diversions listed in thread Today CGN Got 7 FR Flights (by TheSonntag Nov 21 2005 in Civil Aviation) which landed at 0000 - 0030h, but seeing that FR is not a "regular" visitor to FRA they might have trouble getting permission to land that late ("slots" shoul dnot be a problem at midnight ... )
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4615 times:

Absolutely dreadful scenery at HHN this evening- hundreds of passengers stranded without any news,transport or available booking-counter (only two counters for the whole airport..)
ILS is out in HHN due to runway-extension- most planes had to be diverted and buss-loads of passengers arrive to HHN to find out they can't continue..
Not a good publicity for Ryanair !!



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4277 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4563 times:

Also FR flights to EIN were re-routed to RTM due to heavy fog over the weekend...

Rgds
Eric



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4509 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 3):
HHN has ILS Cat.3b for one runway-direction,but the Ryanair Boeing 737-800 seem to be fitted with Cat3 a .
So there is a miss-match between infrastructure on some airports ,aircraft and pilot's qualification ( a

Could someone be so kind to enlighten me what the difference between ILS Cat3a and Cat3b is and why where is no standard? Thanks a lot  santahat 

At least I know that the train that brings me to the southwest of Germany for christmas operates perfectly at fog  stirthepot 

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineDrP From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 280 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4413 times:

Cat IIIa capability allows autolandings in visibility of 700m or greater, wheras Cat IIIb is 150m or greater  Smile


My pony plays the mamba . .
User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4401 times:

Quoting DrP (Reply 11):
Cat IIIa capability allows autolandings in visibility of 700m or greater, wheras Cat IIIb is 150m or greater

Thanks, but there, I have a dumb question: can't modern airliners land completely automatically, appropriate ILS provided?

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineAvro85 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 236 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4400 times:

@DRP
The values you've written should be in ft  Wink

Quoting A350 (Reply 10):
Could someone be so kind to enlighten me what the difference between ILS Cat3a and Cat3b is and why where is no standard

The ICAO defines three categories of visibility for landing civil aircraft with the aid of an instrument landing system.

CATI: DH>200ft, RVR>= 2600ft
CATII: DH>100ft, RVR>= 1200ft
CATIIIa: DH <100ft, RVR >=700ft
CATIIIb: DH < 50ft, RVR>= 150ft
CATIIIc: No limits for DH and RVR

DH is the decison height which is the height above the runway at which the landing must be aborted if the runway is not in sight. And RVR is the Runway visual range which is the visibility at the runway surface.

The airport equipment and the airborne avionics and crew must also meet requirements to conduct such landings:

CATI: ILS and marker beacons, one pilot
CATII: Dual ILS receiver, radar altimeter, A/P coupler or dual flight director, 2 pilots, missed approach attitude guidance (go-around)
CATIIIa: Fail-passive (dual) autopilot or Head-up display (HUD)
CATIIIb: Fail-operational (triple) auotpilot, automatic rollout
CATIIIc: I don't know the additional requirements for this category

I hope this helps

Cheers
Chris
 wave 


User currently offlineDrP From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 280 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

Much better explanation from Avro85 - thanks Big grin

Modern airliners can land themselves automatically, but ILS systems are not always 100% accurate, so it's always best to check you're landing on a runway and not a motorway in next to zero visibility  Wink



My pony plays the mamba . .
User currently offlineOlympicbis From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4345 times:

Solution to this issue : fly a "real" airline, operating from fully equipped airports and having planes and pilots rated for operating properly under such fog conditions which are very common at this time of the year. Yes, your ticket will cost you something more but you will fly, and not find yourself stranded in the middle of a fogged out nowhere.

User currently offlineDrP From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 280 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4316 times:

Pretty much all LCC pilot's are trained in LVP's (Low Visibility Procedures), I know that all U2 and FR pilots are (a/c permitting). Diverts can happen to anyone when the weather is below limits, not just LCC's. It's just unfortunate they had to go 600 miles to an alternative!  Sad


My pony plays the mamba . .
User currently offlineAvro85 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 236 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

Quoting DrP (Reply 16):
Diverts can happen to anyone when the weather is below limits, not just LCC's

Indeed, diversions can happen to anyone. And it even happens to full frills airlines from time to time. I agree that the chance is higher to get a diversion if you fly to smaller airports which are not always well equipped. When you fly FR you know the conditions and you know that in case of bad weather or technical problems you won't get any customer service. But what can you ask more you only paid a few cents. You know the rules before you fly.

Quoting DrP (Reply 14):
Much better explanation from Avro85 - thanks

You're welcome  Wink

Chris


User currently offlineOlympicbis From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4261 times:

Quoting DrP (Reply 16):
Pretty much all LCC pilot's are trained in LVP's (Low Visibility Procedures)

Far from putting any blame on the pilots here. They do what they can with what they have. Such fog is common occurence in this season of the year. Airports like CRL spent more money trying to grease Ryanair than upgrading their hardware in order to face such conditions. Brussels Zaventem , 45 kms away, had no disruptions at all in the meantime. Again, you get what you pay for...


User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

@Avro85: Thanks a lot!  idea 

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineAdriaticflight From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 523 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4002 times:

Interesting post. Last week my friend was flying FR from Stansted to Bydgoszcz in Poland and the aircraft was diverted to Gdansk due to fog. The poor girl had to make her way home from Gdansk it was not fun for her. But i am a FR fan, so i forgive them  Smile

User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

We almost had to divert to XRY on my flight from HHN to GRO last year. We left an hour late out of HHN after being told that the whole Costa Brava was fogged in. Once we were in the air, the FO informed us that they were going to give GRO a shot and if it didn't work out we'd divert to XRY where (believe it or not) FR had a bus waiting for us to drive us up to Barcelona City Center. We did a go around after the first attempt but we made it on our second after about 30 minutes of circling. Unfortunately, the flight from STN who was also in the holding pattern, ended up diverting. Here are a couple of shots that I took, sorry about the bad quality, they were taken before my digital camera and I have a real crap scanner ....

Final approach into Girona
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/alizee340/Scan10009.jpg

Just after our first attempt and circling the airport waiting for our second try.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/alizee340/Scan10012.jpg

Having said that, I really don't think that this would dampen FR's expansion in the least. They seem to be doing very well in dealing with it. Yes, sometimes you have luck and they will take care of you and yes, I'm sure that there will be some incidents where they may not. But for my money, there's no question to me and I'll risk it.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7265 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 18):
Again, you get what you pay for...

Ryanair get what they pay for...

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 21):
it didn't work out we'd divert to XRY

Jerez to Gerona... jeez... thats hundreds of kms and hours in a coach.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 22):
Jerez to Gerona... jeez... thats hundreds of kms and hours in a coach.

12 hours about. I wouldn't have complained because that was my first trip to Spain and I could have seen more of the country. If I were on a business trip, I wouldn't have been upset because I would have not chosen FR and used an airline that can get me directly into BCN. Buyer beware, it's that simple.

Don't like it? Don't fly it. That's why there are different airlines serving different markets. There's a little bit of everything for everyone ...  Smile



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3874 times:

Quoting HT (Reply 7):
FR is not a "regular" visitor to FRA they might have trouble getting permission to land that late ("slots" shoul dnot be a problem at midnight ... )

Yes but getting a slot to take-off again would have been a problem. I assume that the slots at FRA cost a lot more than at CGN.  Smile

The Sorcerer



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
25 BestWestern : I dont.
26 Drinkstrolley : I was thinking the same sort of thing about Flybe yesterday, they had cancellations left, right and centre due to bad vis but is this due to the ILS c
27 BestWestern : Flying Distance HHN -> GRO = 627 Miles Flying Distance XRY -> GRO = 539 Miles Couldn't FR find a closer alternate, like Bergamo - 465 miles
28 Post contains links TheSonntag : I would love to be diverted to CGN, it's only 5 minutes from the place where I live. But FR really had a lot of flights diverted, and they cancelled e
29 HT : The Great Circle Mapper lists XRY-GRO as 591 mi. Seeing that the pictures were taken in daylight, we would not have to think about nightly curfews. L
30 LTBEWR : This seems to be a persistant problem for FR and one that causes havoc for the airline as well as it's passangers. It may be cheaper for all parties t
31 ACDC8 : It's all in placement of the aircraft. Funny thing that you mentioned BGY though, because we flew there a few days later on our trip. The whole coast
32 MD11Engineer : HHN is sited on top of a hill, which frequently fogs in (actually 500 meters away from the airport fence everything is clear again). Last week the ILS
33 Post contains images A350 : Why didn't FR just ride HHN -> GRO with a bus instead of an aircraft A350
34 Post contains images ACDC8 : STAU aur der A3 ...
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Ryanair And Fog posted Fri Dec 2 2005 00:15:19 by IFACN
Ryanair And There Treatment To Staff... posted Sun Sep 5 2004 10:59:34 by Gilesdavies
748 Poses Threat To A380F And A387 posted Tue Nov 29 2005 00:24:33 by BoomBoom
LH And 4U Need To Increase Pressure On Ryanair posted Tue Aug 12 2003 01:16:30 by DoorsToManual
Amtrak Acela Express Trains &#8211; Threat To US And DL? posted Sun Aug 19 2001 20:21:42 by Ua815
Ryanair And Marrakesh posted Mon Nov 20 2006 07:30:47 by Madairdrie
AirAsia And Adam Air To Place Further Orders posted Fri Nov 10 2006 07:38:34 by PanAm_DC10
Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation? posted Mon Oct 23 2006 03:17:01 by CF188A
Ryanair And Tornado: Dangerous Close Encounter posted Fri Oct 20 2006 19:08:40 by Boeing777/747
DL, KE And Rumored DL Asia Expansion posted Sat Sep 30 2006 21:51:24 by Flydl2atl