Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 26 Posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3421 times:
The last week has seen considerable fog-condition in the nothern part of France,Belgium and western Germany.Numerous flights had to be re-routed to sometimes very remote airports (Beauvais rerouted to Hahn -600 Km busride..).
Some of the airports used by Ryanair don't have ILS Cat 3 b,which basiacelly allows bad weather landings with minima-ceiling requirements.
This is not a post to dis-credit Ryanair-pilots,their safety records or anything else that could question the pilot's-capabilities.But the choosing of secondary airports with not alwyas up-to-date ILS infrastructure can cause some serious credibility issue with passengers,stranded in the middle of nowhere and facing a lengthy bus-rides through fog and slippy roads.
Again-Ryanair has an outstanding safety record and never had any major safety issues- but if I consider HHN as major base with some weeks per year of fog without ILS 3b infrastructure - I see potential problems ahead...
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 26 Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3369 times:
Update from the Ryanair-web-site :
Urgent Information - Last Updated: 21 Nov 05 12:57
Due to low visibility (fog) Frankfurt Hahn, Brussels Charleoi, Paris Beauvais airports our below legal operating limits, aircraft are currently unable to land. All flights operating this morning to Frankfurt Hann, Brussels Charleoi, Paris Beauvais have been forced to divert to alternate airports. While this is outside our control we will endeavour to minimise disruption to schedule. Any passenger effected by a flight cancellation make call our dedicated reservation line at 00353 1 249 7700
HT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6473 posts, RR: 27 Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3350 times:
Maybe FR will put some pressure on Fraport to install a ILS Cat 3b instrumentation ? Or is this already foreseen for the expanded (lengthened) runway ?
Not only FR will benefit from this but also those cargo operators using HHN ...
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 26 Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3329 times:
FR will divert to the cheapest airport within range,taking into consideration the rotation of aircraft bach to home-base.
HHN has ILS Cat.3b for one runway-direction,but the Ryanair Boeing 737-800 seem to be fitted with Cat3 a .
So there is a miss-match between infrastructure on some airports ,aircraft and pilot's qualification ( at least some ). Charleroi has only ILS Cat 1 ...
HT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6473 posts, RR: 27 Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3228 times:
Quoting RedChili (Reply 6): Quoting HT (Reply 2):
why does FR divert to CGN and not to FRA ?
Maybe because FRA doesn't have any slots available on a 15 minute notice...?
Well, I was thinking of the diversions listed in thread Today CGN Got 7 FR Flights (by TheSonntag Nov 21 2005 in Civil Aviation) which landed at 0000 - 0030h, but seeing that FR is not a "regular" visitor to FRA they might have trouble getting permission to land that late ("slots" shoul dnot be a problem at midnight ... )
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 26 Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3107 times:
Absolutely dreadful scenery at HHN this evening- hundreds of passengers stranded without any news,transport or available booking-counter (only two counters for the whole airport..)
ILS is out in HHN due to runway-extension- most planes had to be diverted and buss-loads of passengers arrive to HHN to find out they can't continue..
Not a good publicity for Ryanair !!
A350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1098 posts, RR: 23 Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3001 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 3): HHN has ILS Cat.3b for one runway-direction,but the Ryanair Boeing 737-800 seem to be fitted with Cat3 a .
So there is a miss-match between infrastructure on some airports ,aircraft and pilot's qualification ( a
Could someone be so kind to enlighten me what the difference between ILS Cat3a and Cat3b is and why where is no standard? Thanks a lot
At least I know that the train that brings me to the southwest of Germany for christmas operates perfectly at fog
A350
Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
Avro85 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 236 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2892 times:
@DRP
The values you've written should be in ft
Quoting A350 (Reply 10): Could someone be so kind to enlighten me what the difference between ILS Cat3a and Cat3b is and why where is no standard
The ICAO defines three categories of visibility for landing civil aircraft with the aid of an instrument landing system.
CATI: DH>200ft, RVR>= 2600ft
CATII: DH>100ft, RVR>= 1200ft
CATIIIa: DH <100ft, RVR >=700ft
CATIIIb: DH < 50ft, RVR>= 150ft
CATIIIc: No limits for DH and RVR
DH is the decison height which is the height above the runway at which the landing must be aborted if the runway is not in sight. And RVR is the Runway visual range which is the visibility at the runway surface.
The airport equipment and the airborne avionics and crew must also meet requirements to conduct such landings:
CATI: ILS and marker beacons, one pilot
CATII: Dual ILS receiver, radar altimeter, A/P coupler or dual flight director, 2 pilots, missed approach attitude guidance (go-around)
CATIIIa: Fail-passive (dual) autopilot or Head-up display (HUD)
CATIIIb: Fail-operational (triple) auotpilot, automatic rollout
CATIIIc: I don't know the additional requirements for this category
DrP From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2840 times:
Much better explanation from Avro85 - thanks
Modern airliners can land themselves automatically, but ILS systems are not always 100% accurate, so it's always best to check you're landing on a runway and not a motorway in next to zero visibility
Olympicbis From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2837 times:
Solution to this issue : fly a "real" airline, operating from fully equipped airports and having planes and pilots rated for operating properly under such fog conditions which are very common at this time of the year. Yes, your ticket will cost you something more but you will fly, and not find yourself stranded in the middle of a fogged out nowhere.
DrP From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2808 times:
Pretty much all LCC pilot's are trained in LVP's (Low Visibility Procedures), I know that all U2 and FR pilots are (a/c permitting). Diverts can happen to anyone when the weather is below limits, not just LCC's. It's just unfortunate they had to go 600 miles to an alternative!
Avro85 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 236 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2795 times:
Quoting DrP (Reply 16): Diverts can happen to anyone when the weather is below limits, not just LCC's
Indeed, diversions can happen to anyone. And it even happens to full frills airlines from time to time. I agree that the chance is higher to get a diversion if you fly to smaller airports which are not always well equipped. When you fly FR you know the conditions and you know that in case of bad weather or technical problems you won't get any customer service. But what can you ask more you only paid a few cents. You know the rules before you fly.
Quoting DrP (Reply 14): Much better explanation from Avro85 - thanks
Olympicbis From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2753 times:
Quoting DrP (Reply 16): Pretty much all LCC pilot's are trained in LVP's (Low Visibility Procedures)
Far from putting any blame on the pilots here. They do what they can with what they have. Such fog is common occurence in this season of the year. Airports like CRL spent more money trying to grease Ryanair than upgrading their hardware in order to face such conditions. Brussels Zaventem , 45 kms away, had no disruptions at all in the meantime. Again, you get what you pay for...
Adriaticflight From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 493 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2494 times:
Interesting post. Last week my friend was flying FR from Stansted to Bydgoszcz in Poland and the aircraft was diverted to Gdansk due to fog. The poor girl had to make her way home from Gdansk it was not fun for her. But i am a FR fan, so i forgive them
ACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7598 posts, RR: 40 Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2413 times:
We almost had to divert to XRY on my flight from HHN to GRO last year. We left an hour late out of HHN after being told that the whole Costa Brava was fogged in. Once we were in the air, the FO informed us that they were going to give GRO a shot and if it didn't work out we'd divert to XRY where (believe it or not) FR had a bus waiting for us to drive us up to Barcelona City Center. We did a go around after the first attempt but we made it on our second after about 30 minutes of circling. Unfortunately, the flight from STN who was also in the holding pattern, ended up diverting. Here are a couple of shots that I took, sorry about the bad quality, they were taken before my digital camera and I have a real crap scanner ....
Final approach into Girona
Just after our first attempt and circling the airport waiting for our second try.
Having said that, I really don't think that this would dampen FR's expansion in the least. They seem to be doing very well in dealing with it. Yes, sometimes you have luck and they will take care of you and yes, I'm sure that there will be some incidents where they may not. But for my money, there's no question to me and I'll risk it.
ACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7598 posts, RR: 40 Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2370 times:
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 22): Jerez to Gerona... jeez... thats hundreds of kms and hours in a coach.
12 hours about. I wouldn't have complained because that was my first trip to Spain and I could have seen more of the country. If I were on a business trip, I wouldn't have been upset because I would have not chosen FR and used an airline that can get me directly into BCN. Buyer beware, it's that simple.
Don't like it? Don't fly it. That's why there are different airlines serving different markets. There's a little bit of everything for everyone ...
TheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1047 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2366 times:
Quoting HT (Reply 7): FR is not a "regular" visitor to FRA they might have trouble getting permission to land that late ("slots" shoul dnot be a problem at midnight ... )
Yes but getting a slot to take-off again would have been a problem. I assume that the slots at FRA cost a lot more than at CGN.
The Sorcerer
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
26 Drinkstrolley: I was thinking the same sort of thing about Flybe yesterday, they had cancellations left, right and centre due to bad vis but is this due to the ILS c
27 BestWestern: Flying Distance HHN -> GRO = 627 Miles Flying Distance XRY -> GRO = 539 Miles Couldn't FR find a closer alternate, like Bergamo - 465 miles
28 TheSonntag: I would love to be diverted to CGN, it's only 5 minutes from the place where I live. But FR really had a lot of flights diverted, and they cancelled e
29 HT: The Great Circle Mapper lists XRY-GRO as 591 mi. Seeing that the pictures were taken in daylight, we would not have to think about nightly curfews. L
30 LTBEWR: This seems to be a persistant problem for FR and one that causes havoc for the airline as well as it's passangers. It may be cheaper for all parties t
31 ACDC8: It's all in placement of the aircraft. Funny thing that you mentioned BGY though, because we flew there a few days later on our trip. The whole coast
32 MD11Engineer: HHN is sited on top of a hill, which frequently fogs in (actually 500 meters away from the airport fence everything is clear again). Last week the ILS
33 A350: Why didn't FR just ride HHN -> GRO with a bus instead of an aircraft A350
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