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Open Skies Between Europe And US...at Last!  
User currently offlineSQ773 From Spain, joined Apr 2005, 209 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7202 times:

Hi,

I have just read this article.

How will it change the airline scenario over the atlantic ?

cheers !

Accord Reached on 'Open Skies'
======================================================================
The U.S. and European Union tentatively agreed Friday to end
restrictions on where airlines can fly to boost competition in the
transatlantic aviation market.
The accord was reached in Washington after two years of talks. The
agreement may take effect as early as October 2006 if all 25 European
transport ministers approve, the U.S. and EU said in a joint
statement. The agreement would let European carriers such as Air
France-KLM Group fly to the U.S. from any European city, and would
remove limits on the number of carriers that can fly between the U.S.
and London's Heathrow Airport, the world's third-busiest. It also
would end restrictions on the types of aircraft that carriers can use
and the prices they can charge

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7185 times:

Well, this certainly is good news, so long as "all 25 European transport ministers approve" of it.

User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7077 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 1):
Well, this certainly is good news, so long as "all 25 European transport ministers approve" of it.

Highly unlikely that they won't. The EU negotiating team works on behalf of the 25 member States, so they would be highly unlikely to agree a deal that couldn't be ratified.


User currently offlineDallasnewark From Estonia, joined Nov 2005, 495 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7070 times:

This agreement is a lot better in theory than in reality.
Wii we see flights such as LHR-JFK-ATL for example by BA or LHR-EWR-IAH by Virging? Likely not. But it sounds great in theory



B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6942 times:

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 3):
This agreement is a lot better in theory than in reality.
Wii we see flights such as LHR-JFK-ATL for example by BA or LHR-EWR-IAH by Virging? Likely not. But it sounds great in theory

That is possible right now. BA runs IAH-ORD-LHR in addition to their other 2 Gatwick flights from IAH.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineMonkeyboi From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 457 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6889 times:

But BA can not carry domestic traffic IAH-ORD-IAH, only thru traffic originating at LHR or IAH and continuing thru to the final destination.

User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6830 times:

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 3):
Wii we see flights such as LHR-JFK-ATL for example by BA or LHR-EWR-IAH by Virging? Likely not. But it sounds great in theory

No, because I think you've misunderstood the agreement. My understanding is that US airlines will be allowed 5th freedom rights beyond (not within) the 25 EU countries and EU airlines will be allowed 5th freedom rights beyond (not within) the USA.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6815 times:

This will be the biggest thing to hit the airlines since deregulation. It will result in more competition to more cities using smaller planes.

User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 6704 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 7):
This will be the biggest thing to hit the airlines since deregulation. It will result in more competition to more cities using smaller planes.

Will it? Give three examples of airlines that will take advantage of this, and on what routes.


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 6700 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 7):
This will be the biggest thing to hit the airlines since deregulation

Actually I don't think so. US carriers have many 5th freedom rights (i.e. from all 15 countries that already are open skies) and I don't think any are used by US carriers with their own 'metal'. 5th freedoms for the EU carriers? To where? IB shut down their MIA hub, because they couldn't make use of the rights that they had.

Does anyone actually think that any EU airline will begin flights from congested W. European hubs (outside their own country) to the US? Well, only on a code-share basis - maybe. Maybe FR and EZ, they seem to be the only EU carriers who have moved beyond their countries borders.

It seems to me that the EU negotiators have given up the 'crown jewels' of unlimited access to Heathrow for ... What? Fifth freedom rights, which are unusable? Relaxation of US 'Control' (not ownership) rules? Big deal!

IMHO - this is not a done deal, and the EC may find that there is considerable push-back, because there is nothing in it for EU airlines


User currently offlineAhdharia From United States of America, joined May 2004, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 6602 times:
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Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
It also
would end restrictions on the types of aircraft that carriers can use
and the prices they can charge

What do they mean by restrictions on types of aircraft? I didnt realize there were restrictions and what kind were there?


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 6468 times:

Hope we will see CO at LHR soon  Smile

User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 6397 times:

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 10):
What do they mean by restrictions on types of aircraft?

Some old (i.e. ancient) air services agreements set out the frequency and aircraft types the airlines were permitted to operate. For example, in the 1980s Canadian Pacific was allowed (under the terms of the Canada - Australia ASA) to operate 3 weekly DC8s to Australia. When they wanted to upgrade the equipment to B747 - they were allowed to, but couldn't sell any more seats than on their DC8s.

I would doubt that many ASAs, and in particular any signed in the last 20 years, have any of these restrictions. But some of the older ones that haven't been updated probably still do.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4977 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 6385 times:
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Quoting ANother (Reply 9):
Does anyone actually think that any EU airline will begin flights from congested W. European hubs (outside their own country) to the US? Well, only on a code-share basis - maybe. Maybe FR and EZ, they seem to be the only EU carriers who have moved beyond their countries borders.

This agreement to treat the entire EU area as one "Zone" or "Country" will help speed up consolidation in the EU airline industry. BA could conceivably buy IB and not have to worry about losing IB's rights to the US from MAD/BCN, etc. For existing airline groups such as AF-KL and LH-LX, it will mean more efficient operations as an AF a/c can easily fly from AMS to the U.S. and a KL a/c from CDG, thereby allowing better utilization of aircraft....


User currently offlineCV747 From Iceland, joined Jan 2000, 170 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 6102 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 13):
This agreement to treat the entire EU area as one "Zone" or "Country" will help speed up consolidation in the EU airline industry. BA could conceivably buy IB and not have to worry about losing IB's rights to the US from MAD/BCN, etc. For existing airline groups such as AF-KL and LH-LX, it will mean more efficient operations as an AF a/c can easily fly from AMS to the U.S. and a KL a/c from CDG, thereby allowing better utilization of aircraft....

Little correction: LH-LX -> Switzerland is not part of the European Union. Therefor is LX, ZRH, BSL or BVA not part of this agreement.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4977 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 6021 times:
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Quoting CV747 (Reply 14):
Little correction: LH-LX -> Switzerland is not part of the European Union. Therefor is LX, ZRH, BSL or BVA not part of this agreement.

Oops, my bad; and I SHOULD know...am sitting here in ZRH now... ashamed 


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 5852 times:

Expect the loudest screams to come from Richard Branson. He's vehemently opposed it for years, and any opening up of LHR will be like a red rag to his bull.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 11):
Hope we will see CO at LHR soon

Why?

Their policy is to intercept travellers outside of LHR. CO may want LHR-EWR but nothing much beyond a few flights. Certainly no major move away from their existing operations at regionals and LGW. The atlantic is already saturated and they are grabbing connecting passengers at point of origin rather than on feeders.


User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3633 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 5637 times:

As i mentioned earlier, LHR will be big . . . but the biggest result of this change will probably be the death of smaller European carriers over the Atlantic. For Alitalia, SAS, Swiss, Olympic, SN (or whatever is flying to Brussels now) this is very, very bad.

This has the potential to catapult BA, AF/KLM, VS, and LH as the only European carriers across the Atlantic. I never believed predictions that Europe would have only three large airlines . . . now i do!

PJ


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 5589 times:

Switzerland is not part of the EU. So the agreement doesn't include them. But Switzerland has completely adopted the EU single sky policy. Aviatiowise they are part of the EU. So I beliefe that they will adopt the EU/US open sky policy when it comes into effect next year.

User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 5532 times:

It could mean some of the following:

BMI Baby flights with Tiny fares to the US from LHR
UA Flights to Dubai via London
BA flights to Mexico City via JFK
Virgin Flights to Hawaii and Tahiti from London
AF Flights from AMS to SEA
NW from DFW to LHR
LH corporate jet from BRU / LCY to Washington Reagan
DL from ATL to Baghdad via Paphos

Dublin to Bangor, ME to Nassau with Ryanair

or finally...

Hollywood to Bollywood via EuroDisney with SWA.




Maybe now Bermuda 2 is history the rules governing UK flights to Bermuda will be reviewed



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 5314 times:

LHR is the prefered Airport for Americans to Connect..Beyond Worldwide British Citizens like LGW for Parking / Roads ect..You are Right WhiteHatter Just 2 Flights would do one from EWR and IAH to Connect Biz Pax ect.. LGW will stay..as well as the rest of the UK/ Ireland "regional airports"

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7566 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 5134 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 9):
Actually I don't think so. US carriers have many 5th freedom rights (i.e. from all 15 countries that already are open skies) and I don't think any are used by US carriers with their own 'metal'.

You mean like NW and UA at NRT with their own metal, NW i know takes full advantage of those 5th freedom rights.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 19):
BMI Baby flights with Tiny fares to the US from LHR
UA Flights to Dubai via London
BA flights to Mexico City via JFK
Virgin Flights to Hawaii and Tahiti from London
AF Flights from AMS to SEA
NW from DFW to LHR
LH corporate jet from BRU / LCY to Washington Reagan
DL from ATL to Baghdad via Paphos

Dublin to Bangor, ME to Nassau with Ryanair

You mean NW from DTW and not Dallas/Ft. Worth
NW already runs AMS-SEA
DL to ORBS, doubtful, but NW has announced it will serve baghdad when things settle down, albeit DTW-AMS-ORBS



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

Does this resolve the AA and BA partnership issues for flights across the pond?

User currently offlineUAL777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1566 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4980 times:

Remember this is stil subject to approval. UA, AA, BA, VS, CO, DL, and NW are going to scream bloody murder, as will their pilots and FAs. I doubt that Congress will pass it. Furthermore, its not fair that CO, DL, and NW should be able to serve LHR. IF they do get those rights(and slots at times other than 2:45am), the government should reimburse UA and AA for what they paid for their LHR slots adjusted for inflation.


It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 23):
the government should reimburse UA and AA for what they paid for their LHR slots adjusted for inflation.

How do you figure that? When you buy a car and the next day its in the paper with rebates--you can't go back and get some money after the deal is done.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
25 Cadet57 : Actually I beleive you can. Friend of mine, purchased a new chevy one week, next monday, tv ad had 5k rebates on chevy's, went to dealer, got differe
26 ANother : This won't go to Congress. The administrative branch (i.e. DOT and State) have the authority to reach ASAs. As well Congress has supported DOTs effor
27 AirFrnt : Branson is in a difficult place. He has limited slots at LHR, big big planes to fill (esp after the A380 arrives) and he is about to get slammed by a
28 Patroni : DL operates with their own aircraft from Paris to India, so does NW ex AMS. In the past, these fifth freedom rights were also heavily used by PA and
29 Dhefty : This could be subject of a whole new thread. VS is an interesting company with it's entire future based on long-haul, but without much feeder traffic
30 LawnDart : Just like you won't see flights by AA from LHR to GLA...it's not allowed. You will, however, see VS fly to IAH via EWR on CO codeshare, and AA fly LH
31 Joost : Well, the Heathrow access was a crown jewel for the UK government, not for the EU negotiators. Also the European Commission considered Bermuda II to
32 Coa747 : Virgin is the Pan Am of the 21st century. Lack of any substantial domestic network is what did in Pan Am and could also be Virgin's demise. Not saying
33 Joost : For Virgin and BMI, the best solution would probably be to merge both companies, BMI for it's European feeder network, Virgin for it's long-haul netwo
34 ANother : Answer - the simple answer is no, but the airport at Mulhouse and Freiburg would be. In any case it is irrelevant since Switzerland has an open sky a
35 CXA330300 : SN actually doesn't do Transatlantic.......
36 ZRH : Switzerland is not member of the EU but in aviation they have an agreement with the EU that Switzerland is treated like an EU country and furthermore
37 Joost : Well, even if they do not consider the EU as a domestic market, by making the deal the way that US carriers only have 5th freedom rights beyond the E
38 BG777300ER : I don't know if that's good or bad....
39 LHMARK : This sets the stage for LH to grow into a longhaul monster. Watch for them to move into Poland, Austria, and the Czech Republic, offering US longhauls
40 Wdleiser : What exactly is cabotage? What is the definition of 5th freedom rights and 8th freedom rights? Sorry to be an ignoramous. Also, I don't think it reall
41 STT757 : A few years ago during one of the other open skies meetings CO officially stated they wanted 10 LHR flights, 6 from EWR, 3 from IAH and one from CLE.
42 Joost : For the sake of completion, there are a total of 8 "freedom rights." 1st. The right to overfly a country. 2nd. The right to make a non-economical (te
43 Blrsea : Joost, thanks. That was very informative!!
44 Kiwiandrew : or USA to Cuba via Mexico or one of the Caribbean islands - cannot be sold as a single ticket - pax must buy two separate tickets to get around the r
45 Post contains images OPNLguy : Ssssh! This wasn't supposed to be released yet....
46 ANother : Joost, I'm not so sure. From Beirly's remarks US carriers get full 5ths within the EU, not just beyond. He commented that since the EU has 25 seats a
47 Wdleiser : Thanks Joost, now I understand all the freedoms now
48 Post contains links Joost : Hmm, strange, as the article I read about it clearly indicated that it was only 5th freedom beyond EU: http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-11-1
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