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WSJ: Changes In Rules Needed For [A380]  
User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 684 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9838 times:

Official Title is this: Change in Rules Needed for Wake Of Big New Jet

(Doesn't fit into the topic line...)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1132...0803825.html?mod=yahoo_hs&ru=yahoo

This reaffirms the letter by ICAO posted on A.Net earlier.

76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9816 times:

Can you cut and paste the salient points? I don't have a subscription. Thanks.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9761 times:

Interesting is that it noted the study is very "conservative", and hopefully it will be modified next year so it won't have that much of a negative affect on traffic.

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9752 times:

Thanks. Here's another article I found. Seems the press is getting into this. I wonder who's feeding the media trolls?  Wink

Airbus A380 could worsen traffic headache in airports: Report



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9665 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 2):
But if the final air-traffic procedures end up close to ICAO's initial proposal, they could undermine one of Airbus' top selling points for the largest passenger plane ever built: greater efficiency at congested hub airports.

How significant is that ?

Halibut


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9665 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 3):
Interesting is that it noted the study is very "conservative", and hopefully it will be modified next year so it won't have that much of a negative affect on traffic.

Airbus needs to do what it can to speed things along towards a relaxation of the initial guideline. If they can squeeze an extra aircraft out and reschedule a single delivery in order to dedicate an aircraft for wake turbulence testing and research, I think they ought to do it. They should have something to show ICAO and others before entry-into-service next year.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9575 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 6):
Airbus needs to do what it can to speed things along towards a relaxation of the initial guideline.

Amen to that. I've only seen these two articles so far, but if this story gets "legs" in the media, especially if its a slow newsday, then it becomes a public relations nightmare and Airbus will be in the position of defending the aircraft in public. At this point, someone in Congress will completely over react and demand an investigation into the "cover up".  Yeah sure



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9425 times:

The article brings up some good/interesting points.

Can Airbus significantly lessen the wake of the A380 at this point, to match the 747?

Missed approaches are going to be a sore spot, particularly during busy periods/waves.

I can't believe this isn't getting much attention.

I would think to lessen the "footprint" of an a/c of this size, you'd be looking at several noticable physical changes. Thoughts?



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9374 times:

The capability of this becoming entirely political versus a sfety issue is high. The EU has already attacked the FAA for suggesting (how dare they) before the ICAO report was out that it might be prudent to change the spacing even with Airbus's very public promises that the wake would not be worse then the 747. Now that the ICAO report seems to confirm the FAA's initial concerns, I expect the EU to once again attack.

On the other hand, it will become known real quick as a death jet if a plane happens to crash in it's wake which is not extended because of political pressure. That will kill the entire program rather efficently.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1876 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9352 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
Seems the press is getting into this. I wonder who's feeding the media trolls?

Most likely the officials from a certain aerospace company headquartered in Chicago, which shall remain nameles...  Smile  Smile



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineN1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 559 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9309 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 9):
Now that the ICAO report seems to confirm the FAA's initial concerns, I expect the EU to once again attack.

The French press has reported it as "American Press Attacks the A380 Again"

http://fr.biz.yahoo.com/22112005/202...esse-americaine-contre-l-a380.html

To their credit, they talk mostly about the ICAO recommendations but the headline is very misleading.

The French and in general the EU press got this information the same time the NYT did (even I got it last week and published the full text here on a.net) - so MY question is why didn't the EU press publish this story - instead they elected to wait for the NYT to run the story then attack the report as part of some half-baked American anti-A380 conspiracy theory (in the title at least)

- n1786b


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9305 times:

Quoting DIA (Reply 8):
The article brings up some good/interesting points.

Can Airbus significantly lessen the wake of the A380 at this point, to match the 747?

Missed approaches are going to be a sore spot, particularly during busy periods/waves.

I can't believe this isn't getting much attention.

I would think to lessen the "footprint" of an a/c of this size, you'd be looking at several noticable physical changes. Thoughts?

I don't think it's realistic at this point to change the "footprint" of the airplane. It might be possible that all of the pretty tricks Airbus was going to use to minimize the A380s vake vortexes might be coaxed into working, but all of this is surely not good news for a plane that already has two black eyes for being badly over budget and late.


User currently offlineTPEcanuck From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 89 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9164 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 6):
Airbus needs to do what it can to speed things along towards a relaxation of the initial guideline.

N79969, I think this is implied by your comments, but I think what Airbus and the regulators really need to do is make a considered study of the SAFETY and risk of the eventual guidelines. A thorough study may provide direction for the guidelines, whether they need be relaxed, maintained, or even strengthened.

Given that they are conservative now, obviously further study ought to suggest a relaxation. But given the financial pressure for the project to have them relaxed, safety and caution ought to be kept at the forefront of this decision-making process.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Thread starter):
we are still in the Stone Age for modeling" wake turbulence, said Robert Lafontan, the A380's chief engineer

This comment indicates the degree of uncertainty in modeling wake turbulence, thus we must also assume uncertainty in the tests and analysis performed to date. (And this is in NO way a slam on the engineers!) It's simply prudent to be aware of this uncertainty and make cautious choices and adjust standards as the data become more extensive, and by extension, more reliable.


User currently offlineSoylentgreen From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 244 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8528 times:

Quoting N1786b (Reply 11):
The French press has reported it as "American Press Attacks the A380 Again"

How pathetic is this?


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8453 times:

Quoting TPEcanuck (Reply 13):
N79969, I think this is implied by your comments, but I think what Airbus and the regulators really need to do is make a considered study of the SAFETY and risk of the eventual guidelines. A thorough study may provide direction for the guidelines, whether they need be relaxed, maintained, or even strengthened.

It is implied. I do not think it would be wise to raise risk tolerances to accomodate the A380...current levels of safety must be maintained or hopefully improved if possible. However, I do make the assumption that the standard can be relaxed as it was in the case of the B747.


User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

"current levels of safety must be maintained or hopefully improved if possible. However, I do make the assumption that the standard can be relaxed as it was in the case of the B747."

So what do you want, relaxed a bit, or maintained? Wink



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineYULMRS From France, joined Mar 2005, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8328 times:

Quoting N1786b (Reply 11):
The French press has reported it as "American Press Attacks the A380 Again"

The french press ? It's yahoo.fr, the French version of an american website ...

 Wink

[Edited 2005-11-22 18:53:09]


To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8324 times:

Quoting N1786b (Reply 11):
The French press has reported it as "American Press Attacks the A380 Again"

http://fr.biz.yahoo.com/22112005/202...esse-americaine-contre-l-a380.html

To their credit, they talk mostly about the ICAO recommendations but the headline is very misleading.

I am surprised because it was put out by Agency France Presse which is a generally respected wire service. I think the headline they chose reflects a widely felt insecurity.

I think it is indeed a better question to ask why the European press did not report this fairly important piece of news about Europe's industrial crown jewel whereas they report most of everything else about the A380. (Or do they not?)

Anyway an international organization based in Francophone-Canada issued the guidance about A380 separations and not the Wall Street Journal. Maybe the writer should complain about the Canadian attempts to smear their airplane.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8324 times:

Again:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 2):
Airliners may have to fly twice the normal distance behind the new Airbus A380 superjumbo jet to avoid potential hazards from its unusually powerful wake, according to preliminary safety guidelines.

The standards released to the industry by the International Civil Aviation Organization earlier this month are tentative and almost certainly more cautious than the formal rules expected next year
.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8303 times:

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 17):
The french press ? It's yahoo.fr, the French version of an american website ...

Check it again...the source of the story is AFP. Yahoo just picked it up.


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8269 times:

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 14):
How pathetic is this?

It's amazing how they feel this way... The US will have more airports to support the A380 than any other country on this planet. JFK, MIA, LAX, SFO, Memphis... did I miss any others? Spending millions on the infrastructure and all... so why would the FAA want this bird to fail??? A380 is 40% American... creates tons of jobs... Everyone has a vested interest that she flies...

So, YES very pathetic journalism...



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8048 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 21):
The US will have more airports to support the A380 than any other country on this planet. JFK, MIA, LAX, SFO, Memphis... did I miss any others?

ANC.
ORD

[Edited 2005-11-22 19:43:36]

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12450 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8024 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 9):
The capability of this becoming entirely political versus a sfety issue is high.

I hope not - wake turbulence is a serious thing!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7989 times:

I'd like to see them 're-film' the movie "Pushing Tin" using an A380 for those scenes! Try to do that runway stunt now, tough guy... Wink

...not that it was real in the first place....just a fun thought...



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7944 times:

If I remember correctly, the FAA and ICAO implemented almost as conservative wake turbulence separation criteria when the 747 first went into service. It only only after 747's flew in service for a while that the FAA and ICAO reduced this separation criteria because the wake was not as bad as people thought.

That's why I think if Airbus were smart they should fly a modified Dassault Mirage III jet fighter just behind the A380-800 prototype so the Mirage pilot can "feel" the wake turbulence (and he could "punch out" with ejection seats in case the wake turbulence causes the following Mirage III to go out of control). Once we determine the real wake turbulence the FAA and ICAO can issue finalized guidelines for separation from other planes.


25 Tornado82 : Especially in a country with a huge RJ proportion (USA). How would you like to be next in line on a Comair CRJ @ JFK behind one of these things? I ge
26 N79969 : I am no controller but my guess is that they won't even chance it by consecutively sequencing RJs and the A380s onto the same runway.
27 Post contains images TinkerBelle : lol.. There's a guy who started a thread a couple of days ago disputing the issue with A380 wake turbulence. I bet he has already read this thread and
28 PlaneDane : N79969 and TPEcanuck, As I think I understand it, the standard was never really relaxed for the B747. Rather, a far more accurate measurement system
29 N79969 : PlaneDane, I think we may saying the same thing in two different ways. I did not mean to imply the margin of safety was reduced. Rather the allowable
30 Pope : How many airports that will have A380 service will even have an RJ following an A380? I can see the wake issue affecting landing fees as a 1.5 - 2.0
31 Post contains links RedFlyer : Airbus has officially responded to the report. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051122...p/franceairlinesector_051122191340 Humbert seems to suggest that
32 Post contains images N1786b : Bon d'accord gugusse. The article picked up here by Yahoo FR is the Agence France Press (AFP) version - not some American site reproducing some 'Amer
33 Lightsaber : Folks, after the business jet was flipped at SNA due to less conservative rules on the 757, you had better believe that the FAA is going to be conser
34 Wingman : Does that mean that AFP thinks Montreal is a US city and that the ICAO and US government agency? That french news piece is remarkably unfactual, it's
35 Ken777 : If the ICAO is conservative think how the ATCs will be. I believe that Airbus will have to clearly prove that the separation can safely be reduced bef
36 Tornado82 : That's fine and dandy if the planes all arrive on schedule. But when that A380 catches some unfavorable winds on its 12 hour trek and ends up 90 minu
37 Revelation : And it's also possible the seperation times are never reduced, or that they are increased... Crucial? Wow! Talk about putting pressure on Airbus.
38 WhiteHatter : Relevant quote: Provisional, which should be revised with better data. There is nothing wrong with being cautious as caution prevents accidents and de
39 Abba : "another"? It is just quoting the first! Abba
40 BG777300ER : Wasn't he flying up because of the engine thrust, not the wake turbulence?
41 ER757 : In the end, what is the real impact of this? Will airlines operating the A380 have to pay higher landing fees? Will they have to agree to specific arr
42 RedChili : "American press" obviously refers to the Wall Street Journal. AFP never claimed that the ICAO is a part of the American "press." If you read the arti
43 IRelayer : May I remind you of "Freedom Fries". It goes both ways. It is just vitriol being thrown about recklessly. IMO, I think the whole thing with Wake Turb
44 Byrdluvs747 : According to Airbus' CEO, it's because the "numbers" are saying there's an issue. You can't spin safety.
45 Schipholjfk : It's not the american web site... each country site is edited and content filled with numerous local sources. Get your facts straight.
46 UAL747DEN : Obviously just another worthless organization that has no idea what they are doing. They have it all wrong as the American Press is just reporting th
47 MD80fanatic : The Airbus dude who said that they were still in the stone age with turbulence predictions is 100% right....and that is the way it will always be. Eve
48 MD80fanatic : Predictions for future A380 mods? 1) outer gear assembly will be moved further outboard and the center bogies will no longer tilt forward (767 style).
49 AirbusDriver : The B757 also has to follow wake separation as if it was a bigger because of it's very efficient wings (lift=wake) not just size. The B757 make a lot
50 Post contains images Halibut : How American , the A380 gets a face lift ! Something it desperately needs anyway ! Sorry , I couldn't resist . Halibut
51 Post contains images Jwenting : isn't it? Why wait for the next topic?
52 Post contains links Halibut : Forgive me if I'm wrong , but isn't the 757 larger than the 737-900 ! That being the case , it shouldn't be surprising that the 757 generates more wa
53 RedFlyer : May I remind you that "Freedom Fries" was coined by politicians and not the American press. If you read the NTSB reports from the 90's after the SNA
54 Aither : The fact this story is being released during the Dubai Air show is, as usual, pure coincidence... Always amazed to see how Business/Media/Politics can
55 OldAeroGuy : None of the changes you suggest will impact the A380 wake vortex. The primary factors influencing wake vortex are: - Airplane weight - Wing span - Sp
56 N79969 : What is even more amazing is that the European press somehow missed this ICAO report about Europe's industrial "piece de resistance." This is despite
57 Aither : N79969, It is very rare to see technical reports in the general public press, especially when they have a "draft" status - Please refer to the other l
58 FlyAUA : Why do we need a third active thread discussing the same thing over and over again? This is most certainly not any "news".
59 Post contains links N79969 : This technical recommendation is not about some arcane point as you are trying to suggest. The real world implication is that it may increase airport
60 StuckInCA : First there were accusations that an A-net member fabricated the whole thing. Now it's a grand conspiracy between US media and Boeing. I have every c
61 AeroPiggot : Good write up OldAeroGuy, I believe the current 747X (ADV) wake vortex strength might exceed the current 747-400, because of some of the same issues
62 Jascmil : Don't forget about Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly and his boycott of French products. He'll discuss it at length in his next book..."How my boycott
63 Tornado82 : HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Good one Jascmil. I don't even see how an extreme conservative could like Billy O., he's SO freakin arrogant.
64 MD80fanatic : All very nice...and I agree if the A380's problem was with vortex, however it's the turbulence that has been written about.
65 Post contains links Halibut : Jascmil & Tornado82, There is no doubt that Bill O Reilly dislikes the French government . However , he would never say such a thing . Com on guys , g
66 Post contains images BoomBoom : So then why are you whining about it?
67 Galapagapop : Well it may not be news, but it is important as all those benefits of using such a huge airplane at slot restricted airports is almost nill if all slo
68 OldAeroGuy : It's easy to confuse the two since the general term is wake turbulence. The wake vortex is undoubtly the main issue.
69 Post contains links Jascmil : Actually, Halibut, yes, he would. Have you watched his show? His self-absorption and self-aggrandizing is an inseparable part of his TV persona. For
70 Post contains images Lightsaber : Oh Crap... Ok, trying to keep on topic, ways the vortex could be mitigate. (Remember, as pressure driven flow, part of the driver is the higher press
71 Atmx2000 : Maybe because the A380 has started flying around the world in the last month or so, so that the ICAO guidance had to finally be delivered to interest
72 Brilondon : I don't think that this will be that big of an issue considering the number of airlines ordering the A380 would not flood the market with flights as o
73 N79969 : Certain of the world's most congested airports will receive a disproportionate number of A380 flights. They already have problems and the concern is
74 Post contains images MD80fanatic : I guess we will have to wait and see what the Airbus boyz come up with. My predictions are safely etched on the A.net "Flight Data Recorder" (this thr
75 Glacote : Perhaps because there is no hard data nor reputable source? Not so sure. The European press has reported that the FAA took extreme care of not being
76 N1786b : The ICAO letter is not a reputable source and the admission by Airbus executives is NOT good enough? Don't forget the fact that Lagardere (a 15% shar
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