RootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4179 posts, RR: 45 Posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2136 times:
In my opinion, KLM seems to have a pretty good policy regarding aircraft orders.
They ordered the DC10, A310 and MD 11 before they first flew. As you know both DC 10's(arrived in 1972 in KLM) and MD 11(arrived in 1993) had many problems in their first years and the MD 11 proved not to be as performant as MD had said.....did this explain their new policy.?..
The 767-300 ER arrived in 1995, 9 years after it started flying, the 777 in 2003, 8 years after starting to fly, and the A332 in 2005, 8 years after it started flying....
I guess this gave KLM enough time to evaluate the A/c, make sure of its performance and be sure no bad surprises will occur. Seeing so many airlines order the A380, 787, A350, etc before they were even made(and sometimes even launched) I wonder if they don't take big risks..... in this sense KLM's policy seems to be excellent and could save them several millions of dollars and delays..
what's your opinion
[Edited 2005-11-23 16:13:18]
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
IMatAMS From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2007 times:
I agree with you to some extend, however that policy does have it's drawbacks: In general newer aircraft are more fuel-effecient, more comfortable and cheaper to operate than older ones, so postponing new aircraft does mean that, although you avoid nasty surprises and teething problems, you do end up with aircraft that are potentially more expensive to operate and less appealing than the competition. Good example is the 767. By only buying 777's and 332's this late they did end up now operating 767's that are kind of old, tired and interior-wise not up-to-date (although thats their own fault too, they could have done more to keep them in better shape)
Lamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 23 Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1970 times:
KLM has made it its explicit policy not to buy newly developed aircraft anymore. I've heard CEO Peter Hartman say words to this extent. The reason is like RootsAir says, it's better to have other airlines try out the new models and buy only proven ones.
So now they're buying more B737's and trying to get more F100's. Very nice!
MauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2477 posts, RR: 28 Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1897 times:
same goes for A350 and 787.... the reason KLM will keep its MD-11 atleast untill 2012 , is that they want to eveluate both planes on a fare base, wich can only been done good when they have both flown...
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 21 Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1775 times:
Bit of a shame really. KLM used to be an innovator.
They were among the launch customers for a long line of aircraft all the way from the 1920s.
In some cases they were the only operators (like the Fokker F-VIII), or all but (like the DC-5, yes it existed)
Lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1675 times:
Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5): In some cases they were the only operators (like the Fokker F-VIII), or all but (like the DC-5, yes it existed)
I'm sensing more reasons for their conservative policy.
Remember Eastern once upon a time had this same policy. And look what happened to them when they were the last major to have jets! Ok, while I do not think such a technological leap is about to happen just now, it does limit their competitiveness. For instance, if EK pulls off their current expansion... KLM will fall a little behind.
In my humble opinion, the best strategy for an airline is to be a launch customer, but not for year one or two. From my experience, the first 18 months are the toughest time for the launch customers. IIRC these airframes have the worst resale too. (E.g., imagine the poor resale on B6's E190's if they hadn't bought the AR and that turned out to be the version everyone wanted...)
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1631 times:
KLM was launch customer for the CF6 on the 747, an early 744 customer and recently launched the Boeing EFB and some 777 overhead cabin mods becoming standard since then. Also early/launch customer for F70/100, 744ERF, 739.
Aircraft manufacturers like to have majors as launch customers because they can have an active contribution in maturing aircraft more rapidly.
That said KLM is in general conservative on innovations, so if innovations are introduced they make sure there are fall back scenarios.
Aviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 46 Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1575 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 7): That said KLM is in general conservative on innovations, so if innovations are introduced they make sure there are fall back scenarios.
Looking back in the past this attitude is very un-KLM and i would alomst say un-Dutch.
1920 launch customer Fokker F2(H-NABC)
1921 launch customer Fokker F3(H-NABG)
1924 launch customer Fokker C2(H-NABX)
1924 launch customer Fokker F7(H-NACC)
1925 launch customer Fokker F7a(H-NACT)
1927 launch customer Fokker F8(H-NADU)
1929 launch customer Fokker F9(PH-AGA)
1931 launch customer Fokker F12(PH-AFL)
1932 launch customer Fokker F18(PH-AIO)
1933 launch customer Fokker F20(PH-AIZ)
1935 launch customer Fokker F22(PH-AJP)
1935 launch customer Fokker F36(PH-AJA)
I wander where the old Dutch salesman spirit has gone.
Our country did not become to what it is today by watching others.
Next step is probably playing football like the others do, that's going to be borring.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
JRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4597 posts, RR: 51 Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1528 times:
As you might see that is a list of fokker aircraft a very long time ago. That days it was all about your own country (as opposed to 'buy the best' nowdays), so it is no real surprise. Not really worth to compare those 2, as the times were very difirent back then.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
Aviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 46 Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1493 times:
Quoting JRadier (Reply 9): As you might see that is a list of fokker aircraft a very long time ago. That days it was all about your own country (as opposed to 'buy the best' nowdays), so it is no real surprise. Not really worth to compare those 2, as the times were very difirent back then.
That's true of course but I only published the Fokker list because that's the data I have.
I don't know what else they have done in the past and was kind of hoping somebody else would fill the gaps.
I do know a more recent one though.
- As been said KL was not the first to buy T7's but they did buy them with a brand new airco system and guess what........... massive problems in the beginning upto people fainting.
- as we know they were not launching customers for the F100 but when they did order they wanted all kind of options nobody else had and guess what.........
So whether you are launch customer or not does not say you are not launching........ it will always depend on the config you want.
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 21 Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1331 times:
KLM was also among the launc customers for the DC-3, DC-5, DC-6 (I think), Constellation, Super Constellation, 747-200, 747-300, they pretty much requested the stretched upper deck mod for the 742, the combi version, etc. etc.