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Hong Kong-India Bilateral  
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Posted (8 years 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2768 times:

As per an article in Standard, India and Hong Kong are set to start a new round of discussions before the end of 2005. The previous talks collapsed in January 2005.

Selected Quotes:
All passenger and cargo rights established in the current India-Hong Kong bilateral agreement are already being used. Last year, 233,000 passengers flew between India and Hong Kong, an increase of 50 percent year on year.
End of Quotes. Link:
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/std/Business/GG12Ae07.html

I think India would benefit a lot from an open skies agreement with Hong Kong phased in from 2007 when most of Indian carriers will have additional aircrafts. Hong Kong is ideally located for business traffic to China and west coast USA, and tourist/VFR traffic on India-USA sector.

It is a much better location than SIN, KL, and BKK which carries a lot of India-USA traffic. Travel time to USA will be reduced by at least 3 hours and many more hours in transit if the flights are scheduled properly. Currently transit time in SIN,KL, and BKK can be upwards of 8 hours.

Why did the talks collapse last time? Is Hong Kong willing to provide fifth freedom for Indian carriers to all points? Is India willing to provide fifth freedom to all points and access to all Indian cities? Does any one know?

[Edited 2005-11-24 19:47:49]

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBlrBird From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 579 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
It is a much better location than SIN, KL, and BKK which carries a lot of India-USA traffic.

True, it is the one of best (other being NRT & ICN) transit point betwn US/Canada west coast and India.

Last talks were held on Jan 28 2005 in Hong Kong.
Agenda...

Hong Kong:
Daily access to BOM and DEL (deal breaker)
Acesss to secondary cities (BLR & MAA)
Broad expansion of fifth freedoms
Airlines wish list :
CX - daily BOM & DEL, and add on BLR or MAA
KA - BLR

India
Beyond rights through HKG to the United States (deal breaker)
Access for new private carriers from India (9W & S2)
Airlines wish list :
AI - BOM-HKG-US
9W - BOM-HKG-LAX
S2 - DEL-HKG

JP Morgan regional(Asia/Pacific) transport analyst Peter Negline said.

Quote:
"I am optimistic about the potential for what could come out of this round of talks, But even if there is a 100 per cent increase in frequencies, it will still be considered a capacity-constrained market."



Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Why did the talks collapse last time?
Is Hong Kong willing to provide fifth freedom for Indian carriers to all points?

Talks collapsed due to HKG not granting beyond rights and India not agreeing to daily access to BOM & DEL to HK carriers. This was like chicken and egg thing.

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Is India willing to provide fifth freedom to all points and access to all Indian cities? Does any one know?

No, India was willing only for 5th freedom from BOM and additional access only to BLR/MAA , not to other Indian cities.

It will be interesting to see what will be the out come from the latest round of talks when ever they happen!



from star dust....
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9642 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Can another carrier operate with fifth freedom rights between Hong Kong and India? Could someone like UA form the US which has open skies with India operate HKG-India now? They used to, but I don't know how it works out now.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2534 times:

I hope we get AI 777's or 744's IF they agree to all points.

User currently offlineTKMCE From India, joined May 2002, 841 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 2392 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
Can another carrier operate with fifth freedom rights between Hong Kong and India?

Swiis Air used to do so for somewhen they had their flights ZRH BOM HKG. This was I think the till the mid 1990s or so.


User currently offlineLaxdesi From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 2343 times:

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1):
Daily access to BOM and DEL (deal breaker)



Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1):
Beyond rights through HKG to the United States (deal breaker)

Are both sides willing to compromise? Both sides have a lot to gain from open skies agreement-India more so in the long run.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4784 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1):
Talks collapsed due to HKG not granting beyond rights and India not agreeing to daily access to BOM & DEL to HK carriers. This was like chicken and egg thing.

I dont think so you are correct...I worked for CX in the summers of 2002/03/04 and in the summer of 2004 I was told that recently at that time talks were held between DEL and HKG Govt's which saw :

HKG Govt and CX willing to grant AI daily 5th freedom rights across the Pacific to SFO/LAX but AI and DEL Govt wasnt too keen on CX getting 4 weekly BLR + daily DEL & BOM flights so it broke down there as AI and DEL saw that CX would have more to gain than AI would in this regard.

CX are more keen on BLR than on MAA.


User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 2303 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6):
CX are more keen on BLR than on MAA.

I don't doubt it, I know many people flying to BLR on Cathay, Cathay till SIN, and IC from there on. CX would definitely make money on BLR, no doubt about that.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 4 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6):
HKG Govt and CX willing to grant AI daily 5th freedom rights across the Pacific to SFO/LAX but AI and DEL Govt wasnt too keen on CX getting 4 weekly BLR + daily DEL & BOM flights so it broke down there as AI and DEL saw that CX would have more to gain than AI would in this regard.

True enough, yet one key point missing: the real dealbreaker in during the last talks was the refusal of the Hong Kong Government to provide for 5th freedom rights to any other airlines than Air India. Apparently CX was willing to tolerate AI on the routes, but wouldn't settle for the potentially much tougher competition of Jet and Sahara.


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 1 hour ago) and read 2194 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
Apparently CX was willing to tolerate AI on the routes, but wouldn't settle for the potentially much tougher competition of Jet and Sahara.

That does sound rather unfair! Why should HKG discriminate between the different Indian carriers - AI vs. 9W vs. S2? If CX is good, it will prevail..



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2968 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
potentially much tougher competition of Jet and Sahara.

AI isn't that bad....
No but the lack of daily frequencies to HKG is a problem - Last year when I went to HKG I had to fly TG via BKK, many of my friends who work for Star TV and have to go to HKG often fly SQ, MH or TG (and sometimes AI) which aren't cheaper. HKG is desperately underserved and Hong Kong Tourism which is promoting itself aggressively finds the lack of direct flights a massive problem - why would you want to fly two four hour flights instead of one 6 hour flight.



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User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

I can see why CX want BLR - they already have a lot of people doing BLR-BOM-BKK-HKG-SFO or BLR-SIN (on IC) - HKG-SFO routings. Imagine if they could instead take BLR-HKG-SFO all the way on CX - who's service is miles ahead of LH/AF/BA (the current competition on BLR-SFO one stop flights).

In addition there's that fact that HKG is visa on arrival for Indians (like BKK), plus it's the gateway to China - the demand for such a flight must be huge.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2006 times:

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1):
True, it is the one of best (other being NRT & ICN) transit point betwn US/Canada west coast and India.

HKG is a preferred tourist location than NRT,ICN and therefore a better hub for India-China/North America sectors. I read that Korea is planning to promote itself as a tourist destination for Indians. I have been to Korea several times and do not see how it will be an attractive location for Indian tourists.


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