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Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?  
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2379 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10869 times:

Will there be any future orders for the 717? Is this aircraft truly dead, with -14 orders this year?

And weren't there some words about a 717-300 late last year?

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10847 times:

Where've you been?

Boeing announced several months ago that the 717 production line would be closed once all current orders (which I believe are comprised of AirTran and Midwest, not sure if any others have outstanding orders yet) are completed.

Unless someone comes out with a huge last-minute order, I doubt the line would remain open. Plus, given the fact that Boeing already announced the closing of production, I doubt anyone would order an aircraft that's about to be discontinued.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10832 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
Will there be any future orders for the 717? Is this aircraft truly dead, with -14 orders this year?

Those are 14 cancellations from orders signed in past years.

The aircraft is truely dead. Boeing has announced they are taking no additional orders and production will cease with the last delivery.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
And weren't there some words about a 717-300 late last year?

Pitched to a few customers (FL) but lacked the payload/range uplift AirTran needed. They basically wanted 73G performance in size from the 717 platform, but Boeing wasn't going to invest a considerable sum to make their own products redundant.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25276 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10759 times:
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I think it's sad, it's a terrific plane.

I think it fell victim to the love affair with RJ's - and look where that went.

I always had this mad dream that Frontier would buy Midwest and keep the 717's. Everyone would have had a conniption fit, of course - an LCC with a two type fleet! - but that is what JetBlue is doing.

They could have kept the A319/A318 for the long distance and heavy volume routes, and put the B717 on the shorter hops from DEN.

I think they'd look grand with critters on the tails.

Oh, well.  sigh 

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10709 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):
I think it's sad, it's a terrific plane.

I think it fell victim to the love affair with RJ's - and look where that went.

My thoughts exactly...

I think short sightedness on the part of fleet planners has been the downfall of many great products. The demise of the 717 and modern, fuel-efficent turboprops seem like horrible losses in hindsight.


User currently offlineB6sea From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10682 times:

I think it would be cool for Boeing to introduce something of a small version of the 737 (maybe when they make the new one... however many years out that is) that could compete with the EMB 190 and the Canadair C-class? But I agree, it would have been a good plane but it was introduced at the precise wrong time.

-Chans


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10677 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 1):
Unless someone comes out with a huge last-minute order, I doubt the line would remain open.

Not possible... the long lead time parts for the plane are already no longer being built.

N


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10500 times:

I don't think Boeing was ever fully commited to the B-717-200, as it competed directly with their own designed B-737-600, as well as the A-318. Boeing inherited the program when they bought out Mad Dog. The, then, MD-95 already had the 50 airplane launch order (and options for 50 more) from Value Jet, which became Air Tran. So, Boeing had to build the MD-95, but renamed it the B-717 (to the displeasure of the KC-135 community) to fit within their own airplane line up. Later came the TWA, Aloha, Midwest, and other orders.

Boeing found itself in the unusual position of marketing to airplanes with the same number of seats, the B-717-200 and the B-737-600, while at the same time, trying to compete against the A-318 and the bigger (and cheaper) RJs. So, the 90-110 seat airplane market became flooded with choices. Combined, the A-318, B-717-200, and B-737-600 all had miserable sales records because there were just to many competing airplane types in this size market.

Today, the surviving airplane types (A-318, B-737-600, and E-190) may do a little better in sales as the market is still the same size, but with fewer choices to compete against.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12171 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10484 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):
and put the B717 on the shorter hops from DEN.

Same could be said for Jetconnect (QF) for domestic operations, instead of B733s and shortly B734s


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10468 times:

The fact that the 717's block costs (at least according to Airtran, the biggest 717 operator) are identical to the 73G doesn't help it, either.

It may have been intended to have lower operating costs, but in practice, it doesn't.

Steve


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25276 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10454 times:
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Quoting Sllevin (Reply 9):
The fact that the 717's block costs (at least according to Airtran, the biggest 717 operator) are identical to the 73G doesn't help it, either.

It didn't stop Airtran making money. Their fortunes were based on the 717.

It could be argued that their profits have gone down since they got the 737's - but I'm sure that's just happenstance and the price of oil.

Then again, the RJ's have a very high CASM, but that didn't stop the love affair with the majors.

 Smile

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10448 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 8):
Same could be said for Jetconnect (QF) for domestic operations, instead of B733s and shortly B734s

Definately agree, I think that the 717 is very well suited to NZ domestic routes. Of course I doubt NZ will be buying any, leasing any e.t.c but maybe Qantas could put some of those Jetstar/Qantaslink 717's on the NZ network.


User currently offlineOnedude From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10305 times:

I know when QF inherited the 717's from Impulse, that they found adding galleys and catering added a significant weight issue to profitable routes for the 717. I also understand that they do not operate that well in extreme temperature conditions; having said that the 717s are on the PER/PHE run in WA and are slotted for DRW/ASP/AYQ/CNS so be interesting to see how they perform.

The NZ market cannot sustain anything bigger than a 737 domestically, hence AN NZ running 146s for so many years. Be interesting to see the 717 fleet in NZ however suspect for QF that they would not win market share in the crucial business market, also QF intersperse Jet Connect aircraft on selected routes across the Tasman so fleet utilisation becomes constricted.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10294 times:
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Quoting Onedude (Reply 12):
Be interesting to see the 717 fleet in NZ however suspect for QF that they would not win market share in the crucial business market,

3+2 seating on a 717 ( or 2+3 , I can never remember which) would be pretty attractive against the 3+3 NZ offer on the 733s - higher frequencies with a smaller capacity a/c could attract a lot of the corporates who would like to fly QF on the AKL-WLG / AKL-CHC routes but have shied away from them in the past due to low frequency services .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25276 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10216 times:
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Quoting Onedude (Reply 12):
I also understand that they do not operate that well in extreme temperature conditions;

That's curious. The 717 did great for Airtran on ATL/DEN - 1100 miles, about the limit of the aircraft's range.

DEN is hot and high in summer, and I grant we're not talking some Australian temperatures, but then DEN is colder - by far - than any Australian winter would be.

And if QF are putting it into Darwin and Cairns, they must feel it handle the heat.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-11-25 10:54:20]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineEI747SYDNEY From Ireland, joined Oct 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10186 times:

Flew the 717 when I was flying out of Koh Samui to Bangkok with Bangkok airways and it was a nice ride.

I know Boeing took over Long beach operations in the 90's. Can anyone tell what the main differences are between the 717 and the MD-80 family?

Rob  wave 



''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
User currently offlineStuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9278 times:

The major indication from the start that the 717 would be short-lived was that Northwest didn't pick it up as a replacement for their DC-9-30's. That was the main market McD was targeting, they saw it as a natural like-for-like replacement for about 400 planes. There was also the hope that the military would see it as a cheap way of replacing their C-9's. It still ended up being a successful program because development costs were extremely low due to it being a very mature design. It made money for McD and for Boeing and it is still making money for it's operators.

Long live the 717! Hope they stay in the sky as long (or longer) than their predecessors!


User currently offlineOryx From Germany, joined Nov 2005, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9104 times:

Hot and high shouldn't be so bad as it has one of the highest trust to weight rations of all civil airliners (only topped by 752 and ... the Concorde).

User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8533 times:

The 717, while a fine aricraft, cannot compete with the new 100 seat Embrarer. The 717 OEW is something like 6,000lbs more for the same payload.

User currently offlineC210Pilot From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8374 times:

**sigh**
The Demise of the DC-9 Family of aircraft. At least Northwest still has some of the 40 year old DC-9-30's and a handful of DC-9-10's (although I think all the 10's are parked right now.)

The DC-9 family is, IMHO, a very venerable plane. But, onward and upward....


User currently offlineFreedom4all From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8005 times:

In a word no.....stick a fork in the 717, its done


long live the 747!
User currently offlineODwyerPW From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 856 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7995 times:

I would think the Jungle Jets would be a good fit for NZ.

How does the CASM of the 717 compare against the E195....oh never mind..don't answer it..I'll research the forums FIRST. I'm sure it's been covered.

Too bad about the whole 717 naming thing too. Boeing could have used that for the Y1 and 797 for Y3.



Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7869 times:

The knock on the 717 seems to be its range, but what percentage of mainline operations in the USA are longer than the ATL-DEN segment?

Furthermore, how much more costly is it to operate the 737-700 than the 717? The 717 seats 100+ so it requires 3 F/A's, but does the extra range and payload of the -700 justify its additional costs? Or was the timing of 717 its real problem, as no legacies have the money to purchase a great number of new aircraft?


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25276 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7804 times:
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Quoting Milesrich (Reply 22):
The knock on the 717 seems to be its range, but what percentage of mainline operations in the USA are longer than the ATL-DEN segment?

I don't think it is a knock - I think it is a plus, used properly. The A318 has a similar range to the A320 and, as noted above, has not sold in big numbers.

However, at about the same time that Airtran began ATL/DEN, they also started ATL/LAS and ATL/LAX.

This was before they had 737's, and they had to lease A320's from Ryan International, because the 717 couldn't make it.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25276 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7535 times:
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The only way (for an outsider) to find out the 717 costs per available seat mile - CASM - is to find an airline that operates only the 717, and also publishes their financials.

This is Airtran, and it is for the period October/December 2002 (their 4Q), when fuel costs were not yet a major issue.

All these numbers are including fuel, although Southwest was already feeling the benefit of hedges:

http://www.prnewswire.com/airtran/20030128b.shtml

Airtran had a CASM of 8.4 cents.

For comparisons: America West (mixed fleet) was 8.26 cents.

Frontier (their 3Q) mixed fleet, mostly 737's: 8.28 cents.

Southwest (obviously all 737's): 7.47

JetBlue (all A320) was 6.32.

To put this in perspective, in the same period Delta had a CASM of 10.4 cents and Continental was 9.05.

Obviously, there are a lot of caveats to all this. The JetBlue figure is lower in part because of their "young" wages bill.

But Airtran had not started the A320 leasing and had not received any 737's - it was an all 717 fleet - so it as as close as I can get to a "pure" cost.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
25 ElGreco : So this time the end of the Caravelle design.
26 Access-Air : Northwest should have used the B717 for the replacement of their DC9s. American should have used the TWA machines plus many more to replace the Fokker
27 Post contains images EnviroTO : There haven't been any 707, 717, or 727 sales lately. I guess Boeing is really on the downhill
28 BR715-A1-30 : Engines, Cockpit, Cabin, Pretty much everything in the interior except for the doors and windows.
29 Post contains images MD90fan : MD-90 too I though it was longer than that, is that the range from DEN due to its temp. and elevation? The late model SV MD-90's have the same Honeyw
30 Mariner : I cannot say. Frontier's route map says that DEN/ATL is 1200 miles, but Great Circle told it was 1100. So I went with the lesser figure because I did
31 Post contains links Vatveng : In 2002 AirTran had not yet retired its last DC-9. The '9s flew until late 2003. A search of the archives brings this up: http://www.airliners.net/di
32 Post contains links Mariner : Yes, I know, but give me a break - since quesations were raised about the cost of the 717, I was trying to find out a CASM for the 717 and at that st
33 BoomBoom : Give YOU a break! You who are forever splitting hairs, pedantically arguing what the meaning of "is" is and picking nits? And you're asking for a bre
34 Mariner : Okay, don't give me a break. cheers mariner
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