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Failure Of Early Airbus 340?  
User currently offlineBjornstrom From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 329 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 10 months 17 hours ago) and read 9597 times:

DFWrevolution wrote:
"Over a decade ago Airbus missed their A342/A343 sales expectations big time, how often do we hear about that? We don't hear much about the A340's profitability or the fact that 1/3 of the A388 backlog rest with a single carrier."

- Whats the story about the Airbus 340 failure?
- I have heard about SQ returning their 340's - is this true?


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45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12167 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 9507 times:
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Quoting Bjornstrom (Thread starter):
I have heard about SQ returning their 340's - is this true?

It has been said that when SQ order the B772LR then the A345s will be on the chopping board, as what happened with SQs A343, when SQ ordered more B772ERs and Boeing purchased the A343s off SQ.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 9474 times:

Quoting Bjornstrom (Thread starter):
We don't hear much about the A340's profitability or the fact that 1/3 of the A388 backlog rest with a single carrier."

It's actually nearer to 1/4. And even so, that isn't necesarilly a bad thing, seeing how well EK performs and grows. It would be more worrysome if these 43 A380 were ordered by one of the bankrupt US carriers.



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User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1872 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 9413 times:

Don't forget A340 and A330 are 1 aircraft. The idea was to offer choice to the airlines at the time they were hesitating between 2 and 4 engines.
The A330 started very slowly. luckily, the 340 was there. Now, it is just the opposite.
But for Airbus, the only important point is the succes of the line.
Teva



Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
User currently offlineEI747SYDNEY From Ireland, joined Oct 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 9381 times:

Is the A350 a more improved variant of the A330/340 or is it acompletly different aircraft?

Rob  wave 



''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
User currently offlineJush From Germany, joined Apr 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 9378 times:

Panam bought a lot of the first 747s was that a bad thing? NO
It isn't here either.



There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4769 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 9230 times:
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Quoting Bjornstrom (Thread starter):
"Over a decade ago Airbus missed their A342/A343 sales expectations big time, how often do we hear about that? We don't hear much about the A340's profitability or the fact that 1/3 of the A388 backlog rest with a single carrier."

- Whats the story about the Airbus 340 failure?
- I have heard about SQ returning their 340's - is this true?

well firstly, the supposition is stretching it a little
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2280209

SQ traded all their A343s to Boeing and they are leased to Emirates, Gulf, Cathay and China Airlines. There are RUMORS that they may eventually get rid of their A345s.

[Edited 2005-11-25 12:54:11]

User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4769 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 9188 times:
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Quoting EI747SYDNEY (Reply 4):
Is the A350 a more improved variant of the A330/340 or is it acompletly different aircraft?

take the basic A330 design, put a new wing on it, use new materials for construction throughout, put a bleed air version of the new generation engines from the 787 on it and some new A380 cockpit tech and you have a A350.


User currently offlineMaersk737 From Denmark, joined Feb 2004, 702 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 9018 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 7):
take the basic A330 design, put a new wing on it, use new materials for construction throughout, put a bleed air version of the new generation engines from the 787 on it and some new A380 cockpit tech and you have a A350.

Simple and easy  Wink

Cheers

Peter



I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8114 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 8950 times:

Is the A350 a more improved variant of the A330/340 or is it a completely different aircraft?

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 7):

take the basic A330 design, put a new wing on it, use new materials for construction throughout, put a bleed air version of the new generation engines from the 787 on it and some new A380 cockpit tech and you have a A350.

In other words, it's a completely different aircraft.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 11 hours ago) and read 8892 times:

Talking about the "failure" of the A340 without considering the whole program (A34X/A33X) is like taking about the failure of the B764 without considering the rest of the (very successful) B767 family !

The A330/A340 program is already almost 20 years old ...(launched in 1986).
The first commercial flight being operated by AF and LH early 1993.

When the first orders were placed by Airlines, the choice for Long-haul equipment was not very big : B747 or B767 ... eventually the MD11 for airlines already operating the DC-10.
Moreover, the A340 was the very first 4 engines long haul airliner designed by Airbus who did not have any experience of long-haul a/c at that time.

The A340 (and later A330) was prefered to the MD11 by many airlines, including some already operating DC10 (Iberia, Sabena, LH ). And those who picked up the MD 11 replaced it later by A340/A330 (Swissair, Thaï).

I am a big fan of the A330/A340 but I think Airbus underestimated Boeing's B777 and should not have launched the A345/A346, but should have pushed instead for a brand new twin engine (ultra) Long Haul airliner just like Boeing did.

Whether we like it or not, and except for the >550 PAX carriers, the present & the future belong to twin engines aircraft, even for ultra long range aircraft.


User currently offlineEI747SYDNEY From Ireland, joined Oct 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 11 hours ago) and read 8860 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 7):
take the basic A330 design, put a new wing on it, use new materials for construction throughout, put a bleed air version of the new generation engines from the 787 on it and some new A380 cockpit tech and you have a A350.

Thanks mate, I knew it was a similar aircraft.

Rob  wave 



''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 8340 times:

I wouldn't say that the A340 is a failure, but I wouldn't label it a huge success. Look at AC, its getting rid of its relatively new Airbus A340/A330 fleet in favour of the big Boeing twins. When the A340 was developed fuel prices and airline phylosophy was way different. 4 engines meant that airlines could fly avoiding ETOPS restrictions and with more direct flights. That’s not the case anymore with planes like the B777LR/773ER that can fly basically any route with its ETOPS certification.


IMO the lack of the A340 is its 4 engine design. Giving the A340 4 low thrust, low consumption engines made it under- powered and not has economical as a 2 larger engine aircraft like the B777 or A330.

Krisyyz

[Edited 2005-11-25 16:26:38]

User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4636 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 8271 times:

Quoting Jush (Reply 5):
Panam bought a lot of the first 747s was that a bad thing? NO

Yes, it was actually. Too much capacity at a time when the industry was in a downturn forced losses.

Trent.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 8170 times:

Quoting Bjornstrom (Thread starter):
"Over a decade ago Airbus missed their A342/A343 sales expectations big time, how often do we hear about that? We don't hear much about the A340's profitability or the fact that 1/3 of the A388 backlog rest with a single carrier."

The original sales goal for the A342/A343 was something like 350 aircraft. As of today, the program is around 250 aircraft. That's missing a mark by quite a bit.

Fourtantly for the A340 program, this probably didn't impact Airbus cash flow or ROI because of the excellent success of the (cheap) A330-200 derrivitive.

Quoting Teva (Reply 3):
The A330 started very slowly. luckily, the 340 was there. Now, it is just the opposite.

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Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
I am a big fan of the A330/A340 but I think Airbus underestimated Boeing's B777 and should not have launched the A345/A346, but should have pushed instead for a brand new twin engine (ultra) Long Haul airliner just like Boeing did.

In all fairness, that appears like a sensible option in hindsight, but at the time, Airbus was making a very good move in launching the A340-5/6. They pushed the A340 into a class that Boeing could not respond to for several years. But when they did...

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 6):
There are RUMORS that they may eventually get rid of their A345s.

An RFP for 772LR or additional A345 isn't a rumor. Decision expected by Feb-06. Iif the 777 wins, it isn't likely the A345 would stay around for the remainder of their natural lives...

Quoting Bjornstrom (Thread starter):
- I have heard about SQ returning their 340's - is this true?

SQ was disappointed with payload/range and climb performance of the A343. SQ decided to rebid the A343 versus the 772ER, and selected the 772ER with a massive option package, including a Boeing buy-back of A343 if SQ really liked the 777. Singapore did like the 777, exercised the options and buy-back plan, and dropped A343 in favor of 777. Despite what you may hear, this is the only A340 customer ditching for the 777 to date.

For the record, I do not hate the A340. I'm simply bothered when someone sets a goal to investors, misses it by a substantial margin, and there is little accountability for said error. There's pleanty of Boeing examples and missteps as well...


User currently offlineQFA001 From Australia, joined May 2000, 673 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 7807 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
The original sales goal for the A342/A343 was something like 350 aircraft. As of today, the program is around 250 aircraft. That's missing a mark by quite a bit.

Forecasting is a dumb game.  Wink

In 1990, Airbus predicted sales of 858 A330-300s, 342 A340-200/300s, 550 B777s and 450 MD-11s by 2009.

In 2005, Airbus has sold to date 250 A330-300s, 244 A340-200/300s. Boeing has sold 575 B777-200/200ER/300s. MDC/Boeing built 200 MD-11s.

Ofcourse, Airbus has gone on to sell 303 A330-200s and 141 A340-500/600s; Boeing has sold 203 B777-200F/200LR/300ERs; and there are still more sales to come from both OEMs by 2009, including, ofcourse, A350s and B787s.

 airplane QFA001


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 7658 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
For the record, I do not hate the A340. I'm simply bothered when someone sets a goal to investors, misses it by a substantial margin, and there is little accountability for said error. There's pleanty of Boeing examples and missteps as well...

More or less I agree with you. But as long as I'm not an investor I don't care. Not my business. I mean the investors should make sure that somebody is held accountable for losses.
Unfortunately I didn't by some EADS shares. There development wasn't that bad in the past.

pelican


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 7604 times:

Quoting Teva (Reply 3):
Don't forget A340 and A330 are 1 aircraft. The idea was to offer choice to the airlines at the time they were hesitating between 2 and 4 engines.

That is a stretch. While they share the same wing, they are two distinct aircraft types.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
Despite what you may hear, this is the only A340 customer ditching for the 777 to date.

Add Austrian to the list.


User currently offlineFLYtoEGCC From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 7550 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 17):
That is a stretch. While they share the same wing, they are two distinct aircraft types.

They are two distinct types, no question, but your statement's a little short of the full story, given that they also share the same fuselage, nose, tailplane, flight deck (apart from the obvious 2/4 engine differences) and probably a lot of internal components within the electronics, hydraulics etc.



Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 7497 times:

Quoting FLYtoEGCC (Reply 18):
They are two distinct types, no question, but your statement's a little short of the full story, given that they also share the same fuselage, nose, tailplane, flight deck (apart from the obvious 2/4 engine differences) and probably a lot of internal components within the electronics, hydraulics etc.

Also true. But A330 and A340 compete in different niches. The A330 has a superb record in its niche while the A340 does...not.

[Edited 2005-11-25 17:53:09]

User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 7480 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 17):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
Despite what you may hear, this is the only A340 customer ditching for the 777 to date.

Add Austrian to the list

And Air Canada, I know the Airbus fleet will remain for a few more years, but the first A340 may go at the end of 2006. AC wants to go all Boeing long-haul as soon as its feasible.

Krisyyz


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 7292 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
They pushed the A340 into a class that Boeing could not respond to for several years.

For the A346 maybe, but actually not "several" enough to make their success, especially for the A345 : the A345 started its "career" only very recently with SQ, then EK and AC ...And the B772LR is almost there already.
Unless for political reasons, I seriously doubt any airline will order the A345 now that the B772LR is available.


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 7148 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 19):
That is a stretch. While they share the same wing, they are two distinct aircraft types

May vary with engine choice but AF's A332 and A343 (both GE) have 90%+ commonality. I'd be suprised to hear they didn't have more in commen with each other than the A342/3 and A345/6. So maybe they're (A332/3 A342/3) not the same 'type' but they are definately part of the same family.


Quoting N79969 (Reply 19):
Also true. But A330 and A340 compete in different niches. The A330 has a superb record in its niche while the A340 does...not.

Much like the 772A and 772ER. The 772ER has a superb......

[Edited 2005-11-25 18:26:30]

User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 6137 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 17):
Add Austrian to the list.

As I have already said in another thread....:

Austrian has been operating a mixed Boeing 777/Airbus A340 fleet since the take-over of Lauda Air. Austrian has now ordered one (!) additional Boeing 777-200ER and will phase out two Airbus A340-200 (not -300s) which have been kind of surplus since they accepted their Airbus A330-200s (which you can also tell from the fact that both go but only one Boeing 777 was ordered).

It is also helpful to have in mind that the deal for the single Boeing 777-200 included the cancellation of a Boeing 737 order. Austrian had to buy something form Boeing because it had an outstanding Boeing 737 order inherited from Lauda it wanted to cancel....


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9104 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 5852 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 6):
SQ traded all their A343s to Boeing and they are leased to Emirates, Gulf, Cathay and China Airlines. There are RUMORS that they may eventually get rid of their A345s.

The talk is SQ will not proceed to install a 340-500 simulator as previously planned, read into that as you will.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
SQ was disappointed with payload/range and climb performance of the A343. SQ decided to rebid the A343 versus the 772ER, and selected the 772ER with a massive option package, including a Boeing buy-back of A343 if SQ really liked the 777. Singapore did like the 777, exercised the options and buy-back plan, and dropped A343 in favor of 777. Despite what you may hear, this is the only A340 customer ditching for the 777 to date.

Spoken to a some of their pilots say that the early SQ 772's have struggle to do BNE-SIN with current loads, some of the older 777's would be on the list as well as the 340 fleet to be replaced with newer 777 equipment. BNE-SIN would be about 7-8 hrs.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
25 DfwRevolution : Those models are paper-derated to opperate at lower performance. Every single 777-200 SQ opperates is fully capable of the maximum range/payload of t
26 YULWinterSkies : Let's not forget that the 340 was supposed to be available also with Pratt&Whitney (or IAE?) engines, that were expected to be better than the CFM56.
27 Atmx2000 : I don't know if Boeing could have introduced it earlier or not technology-wise, but it is likely that Boeing would not have wanted to because it woul
28 Atmx2000 : So to cancel a 737 order they decide to buy something much, much more expensive? Sounds like a great plan. Or a great rationalization. Wasn't OS cons
29 RJ111 : Care to expand?
30 Dutchjet : Since the A330/A340 were developed at the same time, and share many many components and systems, its probably better to look at the two types together
31 Vfw614 : Yes, because any cancellation fees go into the equation what aircraft is the most economic. If you have to pay a couple of million quid to walk away
32 Atmx2000 : It could be more economical to operate a single fleet type and get rid of the 777s, if there isn't an operational advantage to having 777s.
33 Trex8 : just because there is a RFP does not mean they WILL get rid of the A345 prematurely, I would agree the 772LR looks a much better candidate but thats
34 Pawsleykat : But Why? They are both perfectly good aircraft. If I owned an airline (and had the money) I'd get both. JG
35 Zeke : I dont know, they said they carry less and its on the limit for them, they are not the same aircraft they would do a MAN with.
36 Grantcv : I can confirm the rumours that SQ will eventually get rid of their A345s. I don't know when though.
37 Flying Belgian : Sabena for sure wasn't very happy with its A340-300 & A340-200, but they were very happy with their more recent A330-200 models. The A330-300s are sti
38 Post contains images USADreamliner : Success...Hmmm... the 747-300? 717? MD11? MD90? hahaha! There's always somebody trying to bring down Airbus. Maybe Americans are just jealous. They re
39 Jush : But i wasn't bad for Boeing. That's what i meant and clearly stated. Nothing else was meant by that.
40 Sonic67 : Maybe you should do a little research before you post! 747 sales 1,500 sales and growing DC9 80/90 717 more than 2000 sold DC10/MD11 more than 746 so
41 Post contains images ElGreco : I have got similar rumor. I know that Emirates team are very professional and very exigent, and they pay well for that. I think (my feeling) that may
42 Trex8 : so you guys can confirm that the rumors exist or that the rumors are true!!! yes, SQ will get rid of the A345s, all airlines eventually get rid of the
43 Dutchjet : You make a good point, SQ does renew its fleet on a far more aggressive schedule that most other airlines worldwide - assuming that SQ does order the
44 DfwRevolution : Physically speaking, they are the same. SQ calls them 777-200(A), but they were built and are capable of flying at full 772ER capability. Boeing has
45 OHLHD : OS sells it A342 to the french govnmt. They are adding one B777 to ist fleet as a replacement. The old B767 will fly for a few more years and eventua
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