PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3998 posts, RR: 93 Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7049 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW COMMUNITY MANAGER
With the A350 favoured, at this stage, over the B787 according to this report;
By Ben Sills
Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Air Madrid is negotiating the purchase of 15 Airbus A350 airplanes in a 1.3 billion euro ($15.2 billion) deal, La Gaceta de los Negocios reported.
The deal would be the third major order from Spain this year which has gone to Airbus, La Gaceta said, citing Air Madrid chairman Jose Luis Carrillo.
``The discussions with Airbus are already fairly advanced,'' La Gaceta cited Carrillo as saying, although Boeing is also offering ``very advantageous conditions'' for 15 787 Dreamliner aircraft.
Carrillo said that he expects to choose the A350 and the first planes will be due for delivery in 2010, La Gaceta added.
I also believe the reporter should redo the math on his FX conversion as 1.3bn Euro does not equate to US$15.2bn, that or there's something about aircraft pricing that we've all missed
Astuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9257 posts, RR: 96 Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6951 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter): I also believe the reporter should redo the math on his FX conversion as 1.3bn Euro does not equate to US$15.2bn, that or there's something about aircraft pricing that we've all missed
This is Airbus's new strategy in list price discount management, of course...
I believe EK + QR are trying to negotiate slightly better terms for their A350's, but Airbus are playing hard-ball.....
N1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 555 posts, RR: 18 Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6926 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter): The deal would be the third major order from Spain this year which has gone to Airbus, La Gaceta said, citing Air Madrid chairman Jose Luis Carrillo.
I'll have to remember that the next time some Airbus fan whines about the Japanese ordering the 787.
Manni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23 Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6870 times:
Looks like the Iberian penninsula will be A350 heaven in a few years time, with Air Europa, Eurofly, TAP and probaply Air Madrid all ordering it. One can assume that Iberia sooner or later will choose the A350 above the 787 aswell, since it looks like they will be an all Airbus operator.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 69 Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6793 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter): The deal would be the third major order from Spain this year which has gone to Airbus, La Gaceta said, citing Air Madrid chairman Jose Luis Carrillo.
If we include Taps order for 7x A330 + 10x A350 that would add up to 4 major orders from the Iberian Pennisula.
IBERIA 10x A318, 7x A319, 10x A320, 3x A321, (+ 49 options)
TAP PORTUGAL 10x A350, 7x A330
AIR EUROPA 10X A350
AIR MADRID 15x A350
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 69 Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6787 times:
Quoting Manni (Reply 3): Looks like the Iberian penninsula will be A350 heaven in a few years time, with Air Europa, Eurofly, TAP and probaply Air Madrid all ordering it.
Just one correction Manni, Eurofly is an Italian Airline. Italy does not make part of the Iberian Penninsula. Only Portugal and Spain make part of the Iberian Penninsula.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 69 Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6742 times:
It looks like the A350 is a true replacement for both the A330/A340. The A350 also seems to the preferred airplane for flight to Latin America. This has been demonstrated by the orders from Tap Portugal, Air Europa and now rumors of a potential Air Madrid order.
One has to ask ourselves, how long will it be until Iberia orders any A350/B787.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6444 times:
Chairman Jose Luis Carrillo:
"Nothing is finished as yet, the negotiations take a long time, but in principle we're going for a homogeneous fleet of A350s".
PlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6215 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 9): Chairman Jose Luis Carrillo:
"Nothing is finished as yet, the negotiations take a long time, but in principle we're going for a homogeneous fleet of A350s".
What competent airline chairman would make such an imprudent statement like this?!
If Jose was truly negotiating on behalf of his airline to get the best deal with Airbus, he'd never admit to "going for a homogeneous fleet of A350s" and risk paying higher prices.
Basically, now Airbus should not need to offer the A350 to Air Madrid at a competitive price because the B787 is not really being considered by this airline.
Honestly, like for most all the airlines in this particular region, Boeing really has no chance whatsoever. But we already knew this, anyway.
Alitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4670 posts, RR: 45 Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6167 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 6): One has to ask ourselves, how long will it be until Iberia orders any A350/B787.
I don't believe anyone thinks Iberia will be ordering the 787...
A360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 9 Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6124 times:
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 10): Honestly, like for most all the airlines in this particular region, Boeing really has no chance whatsoever. But we already knew this, anyway.
That might be right... but since Airbus doesn't really has a chance in the Japan market (which is MUCH bigger), nor in the majority of the american market (AA, DL, CO), (which is HUGE), in that area Boeing is still much more favored than Airbus is.
And honnestly I think it really sucks... be it an airline who only buys A or B... it's just sad to see that many times there is no competition.
PS: Please don't say that europe buys all airbus, because it's not true... just need to see which company was the first to operate the 77W... Yes, it was the French (where airbus headquarters are located) flag carrier...
And that is great!
N1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 555 posts, RR: 18 Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6066 times:
Quoting A360 (Reply 12): Please don't say that europe buys all airbus, because it's not true...
And please don't say Airbus has no chance in a majority of the American market - just where are some of Airbus's best customers located (UAL, NWA, USAirways, IFLC, GECAS, FedEx...)
Lemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6042 times:
Quoting N1786b (Reply 13): And please don't say Airbus has no chance in a majority of the American market - just where are some of Airbus's best customers located (UAL, NWA, USAirways, IFLC, GECAS, FedEx...)
Though you have to admit, there's not a lot of widebody in there. Leaving out the leasing companies (who care about what their customers want more the airframe itself), NW and US have some 330's, FedEx and AA have some 300's, and that's about it. NW isn't exactly a loyal customer either. Both A & B appreciate that they're very fickle and will only pick the best airplane for their needs every time they need a replacement for certain ops. Boeing learned this the hard way with the big A319/320 order, and Airbus learned it the hard way with the big 787 order. NW is many things, Airbus loyal isn't one of them.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
A360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 9 Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5984 times:
Quoting N1786b (Reply 13): And please don't say Airbus has no chance in a majority of the American market - just where are some of Airbus's best customers located (UAL, NWA, USAirways, IFLC, GECAS, FedEx...)
I was referring specifically to AA, CO and DL, that why I put them between parenthesis.
Those are some of the biggest companies in the world (being AA the biggest) and they just won't buy anything other than Boeing.
TaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 332 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5783 times:
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 10): What competent airline chairman would make such an imprudent statement like this?!
If Jose was truly negotiating on behalf of his airline to get the best deal with Airbus, he'd never admit to "going for a homogeneous fleet of A350s" and risk paying higher prices.
Or maybe the deal il already sealed, and all this is bla-bla.
Or maybe Airbus will always treat well the all-Airbus carriers, for obvious reasons (like B in Japan), no matter how dumb their CEO are.
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 39 Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5085 times:
Quoting A360 (Reply 12): That might be right... but since Airbus doesn't really has a chance in the Japan market (which is MUCH bigger), nor in the majority of the american market (AA, DL, CO), (which is HUGE), in that area Boeing is still much more favored than Airbus is.
Quoting A360 (Reply 12): PS: Please don't say that europe buys all airbus, because it's not true... just need to see which company was the first to operate the 77W... Yes, it was the French (where airbus headquarters are located) flag carrier...
And that is great!
Of course that could be part of a strategy aimed at keeping the HUGE American market open to Airbus. Throw Boeing a bone and let them and American trade officials and politicians think they have a chance, while pushing Euro airlines elsewhere to buy Airbus.
Quoting A360 (Reply 15): I was referring specifically to AA, CO and DL, that why I put them between parenthesis.
Those are some of the biggest companies in the world (being AA the biggest) and they just won't buy anything other than Boeing
Many of them did buy something other than Boeing, and I don't just mean McDD. It should be noted that American manufacturers had dominant marketshare in the US market from the getgo, so it is only natural that they would retain marketshare. On the otherhand American manufacturers had a huge marketshare in Europe, but since Airbus has shown up, that has seemed to slip away.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
A360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 9 Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5000 times:
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 18): Of course that could be part of a strategy aimed at keeping the HUGE American market open to Airbus.
Right.... the fact that AF has a huge 777 fleet, and more to be delivered is all part of a grand plan...
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 18): Many of them did buy something other than Boeing, and I don't just mean McDD. It should be noted that American manufacturers had dominant marketshare in the US market from the getgo, so it is only natural that they would retain marketshare. On the otherhand American manufacturers had a huge marketshare in Europe, but since Airbus has shown up, that has seemed to slip away.
Before the 320/330/340 american carriers were basicly all that existed for western carriers to buy. The A300 and A310 had a limited mission and weren't very hot sellers.
It's only natural that carriers operated all american made planes... and there was nothing wrong with that.
But today the battle is not Boeing vs MD... it's Boeing vs Airbus, so all companies should consider both.
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 18): It should be noted that American manufacturers had dominant marketshare in the US market from the getgo, so it is only natural that they would retain marketshare.
American manufacturers had a dominant marketshare all over the world. It's not natural that they can retain that marketshare if competition comes to the market (airbus).
It it was like that, Airbus would never had succeded.
BHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4983 times:
Quoting Lemurs (Reply 14): Though you have to admit, there's not a lot of widebody in there. Leaving out the leasing companies (who care about what their customers want more the airframe itself), NW and US have some 330's, FedEx and AA have some 300's, and that's about it. NW isn't exactly a loyal customer either.
Lately it seems that many Airbus wide body customers in various parts of the world would fall into the non-loyal customer category.
MidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 16 Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4722 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter): Carrillo said that he expects to choose the A350 and the first planes will be due for delivery in 2010, La Gaceta added.
I thought that I read somewhere that Airbus had no more slots for the A350? Either way, the market is speaking very loudly for both the A350 & the 787, more fuel efficient aircraft, twin engine fuel efficient aircraft is what the market is looking for.
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 39 Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4634 times:
Quoting A360 (Reply 19): Right.... the fact that AF has a huge 777 fleet, and more to be delivered is all part of a grand plan...
Yup, those French are craft bastards
Quoting A360 (Reply 19): Before the 320/330/340 american carriers were basicly all that existed for western carriers to buy. The A300 and A310 had a limited mission and weren't very hot sellers.
858 orders and 801 deliveries isn't exactly terrible. McDD would be around if they sold that many aircraft. And a nice chunk of those went to American carriers, including around 110 that went to US airlines.
Quoting A360 (Reply 19): American manufacturers had a dominant marketshare all over the world. It's not natural that they can retain that marketshare if competition comes to the market (airbus).
It it was like that, Airbus would never had succeded.
It probably wouldn't have without subsidies, political pressure to buy domestic in Germany and France, and the openness of the American market.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
A360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4524 times:
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 22): It probably wouldn't have without subsidies, political pressure to buy domestic in Germany and France, and the openness of the American market.
As for the openness of the American market, that's a great thing about america... that's why I don't like it to change.
AA bought A300's.... will we see them buying more airbus?
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 39 Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4507 times:
Quoting A360 (Reply 23): AA bought A300's.... will we see them buying more airbus?
Well, they didn't do much for their cause with the handling of the A300 crash in 2001.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
25 A388: Almost every major U.S. airline has become all-Boeing, so much for the openness of the American market. The same can be said about Airbus in Europe, s
26 Kappel: Especialy with those "gentlemen agreements" Boeing has with AA and CO.
27 Atmx2000: Right that is why three of the US majors have large modern A320 fleets, and two of them fly Airbus widebodies (plus AA, but they aren't likely to buy
28 Manni: I disagree, KLM/AF have a huge number of widebody Boeing aircraft in their fleet, KLM has no Airbusses with the exception of half a dozen A330's. Bri
29 Zvezda: There is far too much backstabbing in European politics for such a conspiracy to ever succeed. AF bought B777s because they were the right solution t
30 Atmx2000: But if they did cave to the political pressure, what do you think would be the result on this side of the Atlantic? The realization that European mar
31 Keesje: Germany, UK, France & Spain are bulking of thousands of 737, 747, 757, 767, 777 soon 787 and whoever offers a good product for a good price. Includin
32 Aerokiwi: Perhaps Airbus simply has not made the type of aircraft that are needed by American customers, whereas Boeing is uniquely attuned to this market (whic
33 A388: Manni & Atmx2000, I agree with you, that's why I said in the end that it levels out a bit. I was only referring to the major airlines. Even though BA,
34 GARPD: Pissing matches and AvB debates aside, I see this as an Airbus order. Why? Well Air Madrid operate all Airbus, they're still relatively young with a s
35 Atmx2000: Let us not include orders made before Airbus existed or Airbus/European industry offered a competitive product. As Airbus expanded its offerings to c
36 A388: While AA does operate the AB6 it will be no surprise these will eventually will be phased out to make room for the 787, so AA can be ruled here. No Ai
37 Atmx2000: I was looking for an example of an EU major (that flies intercontinental, not short haul LCC) moving in the all Boeing direction.
38 A388: Oww I'm sorry, in that case you are right my friend. I would have said BA but as they have ordered the A319/321 this isn't the case here. I do find th
39 Atmx2000: Old US Airways management had a spat with Boeing in the 90s and signed a comprehensive acquisition deal with Airbus, but since management at both com
40 ElGreco: You need to agree that Japan, Israelian, and most of American Airlines are under US economic and political pressure in addition of the very good Boei
41 A388: Atmx2000 thanks for the explanation. However, I was referring to BA ordering the A320 family instead of the 737NG. In my opinion the 737NG would have
43 Atmx2000: No, I don't have to agree that American airlines are under political or economic pressure to order Boeing. There is no effective way for to pressure
44 A388: Haha, I was thinking the same but decided not to mention it. Politics and aviation, it still happens in todays world. It can be good or bad. A388
45 N1786b: And the fact that they were cancelling a 767 order and were going to lose their deposits on them had nothing to do with it Hmmmmmm The French Ministe
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