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787-3/8/958? El Al Interested In At Least 11 787s!  
User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6888 times:

El Al reported last week that it would end 2005 with an agreement with Boeing for the another 2 777-258ER the airline is interested in.

The airline is also showing great interest in the 787, and said it plans on ordering at least 11 787s to replace it's aging 767s and 757s fleet during 2006.

I would mention though, that for the first time, where's the Israeli private airline can really afford itself with an Airbus (A350), it does not even order both BA and Airbus for a tender but simply is saying that it would go for the 787. That seems really odd.

To me the 787 seems as the right a/c for LY but I wouldn't go upset Airbus like that.
If LY board listened to me, I would suggest going for the 787.
But, I would also suggest this... And think about it:
Go for the A380.

Here are my reasons:
1. Unlike some other airlines, LY does have the routes where an A380 will have a great value and is highly needed: TLV-NYC, TLV-LHR, TLV-CDG and TLV-BKK.
2. Buying an A380 now, means great discounts (that's for every airline).
3. If Airbus knew they have a chance selling the A380 to LY they would've given LY even a better deal as LY was a mountain the European Manufacture had tried to reach long and many times before.
4. A380F - The right solution for LY. The perfect freighter LY is looking for. It will enable LY flying nonstop with 150T from TLV to JFK, HKG, PVG, ICN.
5. Braking the "no thanks Airbus" impression buy buying an Airbus and by then making Airbus trying to get once again LY's deals in the future.

As the A380 has no competitor yet, this can not upset our great friends in America and LY would worth a lot from this.
I'm talking for 3-4 A388 and 3 A388F.

What do you think?

Mike

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6866 times:

the 787 is the perfect a/c to replace the aging 757s and 767s.
However, the A380 is far too big for LY, the 748 would be ideal to replace the 744 .



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6853 times:

Quoting El Al 001 (Thread starter):
1. Unlike some other airlines, LY does have the routes where an A380 will have a great value and is highly needed: TLV-NYC, TLV-LHR, TLV-CDG and TLV-BKK.

IMHO, I think the A380 is way too much plane for those routes. Israel has only about 3 million (6million?) people, and not much connecting traffic compared to say Singapore or Hong Kong.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6803 times:

Israel has about 6 million people,Jet-Lagged


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3767 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6761 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 3):
Israel has about 6 million people,Jet-Lagged

6,276,883 actualy (Taken July 05)  Wink they are the 103rd largest country in the world  Smile

I think LY should go for the 747-8, I think it could be a better option rather than the A380 for LY! Maybe they would also pick up some 747-8F's and 777F's to replace the older 747F's!  Smile

Rob!  wave 


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11557 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6744 times:

Quoting El Al 001 (Thread starter):
That seems really odd.

Why does that seem odd? El Al is and always has been an all-Boeing carrier, it's employees have vast knowledge and experience of Boeing planes, its logistics and structure are well suited to Boeing products, and the company has an excellent and long-standing relationship with Boeing. Obviously, El Al felt that the 787 was the better plane (just as Air Canada, JAL, ANA, Northwest, Continental, Korean Air, etc. have).

Quoting El Al 001 (Thread starter):
To me the 787 seems as the right a/c for LY but I wouldn't go upset Airbus like that.

Airbus isn't a five-year-old (although some of its "executives" sometimes act as so). El Al is not upsetting Airbus, and I doubt that Airbus would really make too much fuss about even if they were "upset," so as to ruin their future chances for El Al orders.

Quoting El Al 001 (Thread starter):
Go for the A380.

The A380 is way too big for any route El Al flies except TLV-JFK, but introducing such a large plane on that route would eliminate the need for multiple frequencies, which is a big part of what gives El Al its competitive edge in this huge market against Continental and the European airlines. El Al can offer multiple daily flights from TLV to JFK (and EWR) with smaller, more efficient 777s and 787s, whereas an A380 would flood the market and cut frequency.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6691 times:

It would be a good move for EL AL to place an early order for the 787, its the perfect airplane to replace EL AL's 757/767 fleet......the 787 is available in several variants that would cover everything from EL AL's shorter haul highdemand route to thin longrange routes. Many of EL AL's 752s and 762s are early build examples that will be in need of replacement by the time that the 787 enters service, an order at this point may still allow EL AL to receive some 787s at an early date.

I am sure that EL AL has taken a good look at the A350......why bother with an Airbus tender is the 787 is the aircraft that EL AL wants?

I think that the A380 would be a mistake for EL AL, its far too big for the EL AL route system....EL AL is looking at opening up more nonstop routes from TLV to US cities (such as MIA, ORD, LAX) which would reduce demand on the most important JFK-TLV service (the only EL AL route that would make any sense for the A380). A mix of 787 and 777s for most longhaul routes, with 747s (possibly the 748 in the future) reserved for the JFK-TLV route would allow EL AL to operate its route system very effeciently and allow EL AL to provide an acceptable level of frequency on the longhaul services.

In my opinion, EL AL's fleet planning sounds about right to me.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6670 times:

In the near future, El Al fleet will consist of
-73G/738
-787
-772 and maybe 773ER
-744 and maybe 748



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6669 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
...JFK-TLV...the only EL AL route that would make any sense for the A380

Do airlines ever introduce a new type to service just 1 route?


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6642 times:

Quoting Art (Reply 8):

Do airlines ever introduce a new type to service just 1 route?

Rarely, thats why I do not think that the A380 would make sense for EL AL.

But there have been exceptions over the years, Branff operated a sole 747 for the DFW-HNL route for years, National has a fleet of 2 747s that flew very limited routes, etc. In any case, I cannot see EL AL investing in the A380 for just the JFK-TLV route.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6599 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5):
The A380 is way too big for any route El Al flies except TLV-JFK, but introducing such a large plane on that route would eliminate the need for multiple frequencies, which is a big part of what gives El Al its competitive edge in this huge market against Continental and the European airlines. El Al can offer multiple daily flights from TLV to JFK (and EWR) with smaller, more efficient 777s and 787s, whereas an A380 would flood the market and cut frequency.

El Al has two JFK-TLV flights, but they leave at the same time at 11:50pm. CO has two flights as well, but they are timed differently to leave at 3:50pm and 10:50pm. So I would say that frequency isn't something that El Al needs.

But in reality the A380 really does seem like too much plane for them. It will have little use no commonality with the rest of their fleet. They only have a few 747s as is. A 777-200/300 combination along with 787s would do a good job of effectively covering their medium and long range routes. While Israel does have a fairly large population, it has a number of flights from Europe and there is virtually no connecting passengers flying through the country unlike the other carriers in that part of the world.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6576 times:

Mike the A380 is a big hippopotamus and will be uneconomical to operate.

Also by having this giant El Al will not be able to offer a varied schedule. Better to offer 3 flights at different times of the day than 2 or 1 flight.

The only route it can be used on is TLV to New York. It is not a flexible aircraft.

Also politically it is out of the question.


User currently offline4xRuv From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6558 times:

I also think that we wouldn't see a new Airbus in El Al in the near future (at least not a new one maybe leased).
Airbus was very generous the last time they competed against Boeing, and offered free training and to pay for the entire technical changes needed for the airbus fleet additions.

Just another interesting question:
What are the chances we'll see a TLV-SYD in the near future(with a nice 772LR for example)?


User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6527 times:

I should make myself clearer...

1. There are 6.8 mio citizents who live in Israel to date.
I'm writing this not because it's relevant, but because the figures you guys wrote are not true.
There are good examples in which populations has nothing to do with aviation.
We've seen SQ and EK ordering dozens (EK) of A380s and it has nothing to do with the small population relatively those airlines are coming from. Ok, It has to do with their routes system - that's a thing LY is going to change soon too.
2. I did not mention other than the NYC routes, London, Paris and Bangkok (and at some points also Warsaw! Kiev! And more) for no reason - These routes can support an LY A380 daily, check the figures, the fact that prices are so high because no airline can afford the demand and the way LY acts - The airline has a limit of what it can do about the demand.
Prices are very high, free seats are missing and it's impossible to run the airline at Summers where 5 744s and 4 777s are deployed on the TLV- NYC almost the whole time.
3. No one replied for the cargo operation thing.
4.If a 748 makes sense for LY so does the A380.
5. It is a big deal for Airbus to sell an a/c for LY. We've seen that many times in the past. For every business, which publishes tenders every few years, relaying on more than one supplier (right for every company - not just an airline) is better and enables the company to get better deals etc'.
6. I don't see the connection between a "wholly new a/c" (the 787) and the fact that LY employees are familiar with Boeings. That's irrelevant. Especially when Airbus is willing to pay a lot for the training of LY's people.
7. LY didn't give much look for the A350, it was not relevant, as Airbus, learning from the past, would not give LY much attention 'knowing' that it is a sold game - that's a fact.
8. El Al does look for opening more nonstop cities in the US. But not in the sake of letting go their huge NYC operations.
In fact, by flying to NYC with A380, more tourists will be able to enjoy this and it would free up the 777s for other routes.
9. LY is looking to replace its 744 somewhere in the near future (I bet most of you did not know that).
10. LY777, welcome aboard A.net! I doubt what you wrote about LY's NEAR future fleet... It would take many years to say good bye for the 767s, the 757s are planned to be going before and they still have no successors.
The 77W might be a nice idea (I think its a great plane for LY) but someone would have to make LY convinced it's worth to bring another engine to their fleet. Very hard thing to do. And last the 748 - thats a whishfull thinking.
11. LY has 2-3 night flights to NYC daily. No one would care if all flights were done with one big a/c - but it would save LY a lot of bucks and again - free up the 777s for other nonstops in the US and the much anticipated routes to NRT and GRU/GIG!
12. LY can support a daily A380 to CDG, LHR, BKK and twice daily to JFK year round - this will result in the need for 4 A380 and another 3 for El Al cargo.

Mike


User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6503 times:

BTW, 4Xruv, I was writing my reply while you made yours - You made my point with the willing of Airbus to sell planes here even better.

I'm expecting to read your replies guys but I wont be able to see them soon as I return tomorrow to the Navy - next time Im checked in here again wont be before Wednesday.

Have a nice week(end)!


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6472 times:

The 783 is too big to replace the 752. The 739ER is a better 752 replacement.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6200 times:

I think this is not that big surprise.If i would be Airbus, i would stop to offer aircrafts to EL AL, unless they MAY buy what they want...

Remember the selection of the A332 and A319 some years ago which was changed to Boeing-Airplanes after heavy political pressure.

This is not the right way!!!

I like El AL and i hope times will change very soon!



Greets,


Johnny  Smile


User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6184 times:

Quoting El Al 001 (Reply 14):
BTW, 4Xruv, I was writing my reply while you made yours - You made my point with the willing of Airbus to sell planes here even better.

I'm expecting to read your replies guys but I wont be able to see them soon as I return tomorrow to the Navy - next time Im checked in here again wont be before Wednesday.

Have a nice week(end)!



Quoting Johnny (Reply 16):
I think this is not that big surprise.If i would be Airbus, i would stop to offer aircrafts to EL AL, unless they MAY buy what they want...

Remember the selection of the A332 and A319 some years ago which was changed to Boeing-Airplanes after heavy political pressure.

This is not the right way!!!

I like El AL and i hope times will change very soon!

As an alternative, perhaps El Al could look at replacing its narrowbody fleet with Airbus aircraft when the time comes.


User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6160 times:

I'd be interested in how good for cargo ops the A388F would be for El Al. I would have assumed they'd be more in the heavy lift market than other carriers. After all, Israel doesn't have many options for fast heavy-lift, given limited competition. Mail and the like I would assume are carried on the CO/EY flights already...anyway, I admit to not knowing really, I just never really thought about it.


There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6137 times:

Hah. Big surprise! The American taxpayer ends up paying for it. This isn't flamebait, it is the truth...not like I mind. What is good for Boeing is good for the US, especially our trade defecit...

-IR


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6089 times:

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 19):
Hah. Big surprise! The American taxpayer ends up paying for it. This isn't flamebait, it is the truth...not like I mind. What is good for Boeing is good for the US, especially our trade defecit...


  • El Al is a private company.
  • The Camp David money goes to the IDF.
  • El Al is not controlled by the IDF.


EDIT: spelling

[Edited 2005-11-27 07:47:49]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6050 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 20):
El Al is a private company.

The privatisation was delayed many times and is still in the process of being completed. In addition, the government still owns 30%. So I wouldn't call it a "private company". It is pretty naive of you to not seriously believe that politics was not at least a small factor in this order.

-IR


User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6020 times:

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 21):
The privatisation was delayed many times and is still in the process of being completed. In addition, the government still owns 30%. So I wouldn't call it a "private company". It is pretty naive of you to not seriously believe that politics was not at least a small factor in this order.

There's a big difference between: "politics was at least a small factor in this" and "the American taxpayer ends up paying for this." (your original statement.)

Good job building up that straw man so you could so effectively beat it down, though. It didn't stand a chance.  checkmark 



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5936 times:

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 22):
There's a big difference between: "politics was at least a small factor in this" and "the American taxpayer ends up paying for this." (your original statement.)

Good job building up that straw man so you could so effectively beat it down, though. It didn't stand a chance.

Israel receives billions of dollars in foreign aid every year from the US. The American taxpayer will end up paying for El Al's aircraft purchases one way or the other, either directly or indirectly. The Israeli economy would collapse without that aid...

There was no "straw man". I was responding to a point made by someone else in my second post. Also I never said it was a bad thing. We did it in Europe with the Marshall Plan and that worked out quite well for us.

-IR


User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5883 times:

Irelayer EL AL pays for its Boeing planes. There is no gift.

25 Lemurs : Fair enough, but then you can see where the confusion would come from. The poster was responding to the American Taxpayer comment, which you then reb
26 4xRuv : I'm not familiar with the numbers, but what about the ranges? LY is using sometimes the 752 to PEK and BOM, Can the 739 fly that route? Mike, In a 3
27 LY777 : The 752 is never used to go to Beijing
28 4xRuv : It used to. I remember for sure that they used it during the SARS disease. And they've used it before on low season. Checked.
29 RoseFlyer : How big do you think the A380 really is? It isn't THAT much larger than a 747. It is roughly a 25% increase in capacity, so even with the A380, there
30 LY777 : "It used to. I remember for sure that they used it during the SARS disease. And they've used it before on low season. Checked." but the 752 does not h
31 Post contains images B742 : I disagre, frequency is something LY needs... For example, today there are 3 TLV-JFK-TLV flights, all 747-400 flights from LY plus one 777-200 flight
32 4xRuv : Perhaps. I don't know
33 RIX : - utter nonsense. These "billions of dollars" (3 bn) are less than 4 per cent of Israeli budget - now tell me how "Israeli economy would collapse wit
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