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A350-totally New Aircraft! Noël Forgeard  
User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9103 times:

At the bottom of the artile I noticed this paragraphy . Forgeard without doubt is one smart cookie . However , I do not agree that the A350 is the most modnern a/c of this century . The multple CEO situation is also discussed .


http://www.itp.net/business/features/details.php?id=3463&category=

“If you look at two recent initiatives within the industry; the A350 and the 747-8 they are quite different. The A350 is a totally new aircraft — totally new — the wings are new, the fuselage is new and even the engines are new,” he claims resolutely. “It is the most modern aircraft of this century and we spent US$5.1 billion on its development. The 747-8 is not much different from the 747 — it is just a little stretched — that’s it,” he adds.

Forgeard is united in this belief with Thomas Enders, who has been his co-CEO at EADS since the former Airbus boss won a power struggle for the leadership of the group and unseated former chairman and chief executive, Philippe Camus in June. EADS has been run by two co-CEOs since the group was established in 2000, with one nominated by the company’s French shareholders and the other nominated by Germany’s DaimlerChrysler AG, which holds a 33% stake.

Media reports claim Forgeard would like to see the company's two CEO system abolished in favour of having a single chief executive structure in a move that EADS’ German shareholders have seen as an attempt to engineer a French dominated management team.

But the Frenchman predictably denies this, saying the two men have a good working relationship.


Halibut

[Edited 2005-11-27 13:02:50]

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyABR From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9033 times:

what does most modern mean? i'd still say the A350 is not as "technologically" advanced as the 787...but who really cares!!

[Edited 2005-11-27 13:21:21]

[Edited 2005-11-27 13:22:29]

User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8939 times:

Forgeard must have missed the memo about the 748 using thesame engines as the A350. I guess this means bye bye commonality.

User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8739 times:

Quoting FlyABR (Reply 1):
what does most modern mean? i'd still say the A350 is not as "technologically" advanced as the 787...but who really cares!!

The concept of modern is based completely on time and investment. In A350's case, it is chasing 787 by at least a year. In terms of being as "technologically advanced", I'm guessing Airbus is trying to 'keep it simple' whlie Boeing risks the big steps forward. If Airbus can sell enough to make up for their investment, why have something so revolutionary when it could be done cheaper or simpler? This is already occuring in the exact opposite direction w.r.t. A380 and 748, while they may not be competitors, same business case.


Usually, the development of newer technology brings the opportunity to be more modern than the previous 'big step forward'. Having said that, a company doesn't have to invest 100% in something completely new. Consider all the harddrive digital music players than came into existence after I-Pod's debut years ago; Apple took a big risk. Boeing and Airbus are taking theirs, like all companies...and people for that matter. Big grin



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8532 times:

The reason A350 is all new is because after the fourth try, this what they came up with to properly compete with the 787... where as, the 747 has no competitor. Now, if everyone here thinks that Airbus came up with an all new design for charity... you are wrong. Remember, those statements of simply slapping on a the 7E7 engines on the A330 comments???

Even now, notice how Emirates is still not happy with the A359. Airbus will change their specs once more to accomodate EK.

748 can get away with this because the 748 has no competitor - simple as that. The A380 are for airlines who can fill 550 plus seats. If you can't do this, the 748 is a better choice. its just simple economics. The 748 could be Airbus' worst nightmare, at this point, because they dont have a plane to properly compete with the 450 seater, which the 748 is optimized for.

Cheers,

Ric



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineNavion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1015 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8489 times:

The A350 ain't an all new based upon the amount of money (reportedly $4-$5 Billion) they're spending. If it was an all new aircraft, they'd be spending $7-$9 Billion (approximately). They're clearly using quite a bit of existing materials & technology. Talk is cheap but the money spent on a projet is king. Development of the A380, A345/6, A318 etc. have cost a lot of money, money which is cannibalising the A350 effort to be "all new". I'm sure the A350 will be a fine aircraft but the "all new" marketing, intended to keep up with the 787, is not being backed by the dollars necessary for such a pronouncement.

User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8455 times:

Foergard needs to make up his mind whether he will act as chief executive of EADS or as a VP-level spin doctor for Airbus who communicates in half-truths or occasionally, non-truths.

User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8274 times:

Notice how he compares the A350 to the 748, instead of the 787.
Truth be told, the A350 is a derivative and the 748 is a derivative.

The 787 is the most modern aircraft of this century--so far. After all, this century is very young.


User currently offlineJayinKitsap From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8189 times:

Also, remember that the 787 is starting a new assembly line, new wing line, new body line, new bleedless air system, and a new hull diameter. Boeing feels that it may need to open a 2nd line. In the future, one of those lines could be switched to the Y1 when it is launched.

The A350 is on the same line as the A330 & A340. If all new wings, etc how easily will it be to make an A330, then a A350 and back on that line. Many products have a downtime to change over to a different model, for cars it may be seconds, in a stamping plant the dies need changing which is several hours. Some line changeovers are days. I suspect that the A350 line will do several months of A350's before jumping back and doing any remaining A330's or A340's.


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8162 times:

Saying that an A/C is the most modern one of the century sounds a little stupid, whan there is 94 years left of it. Sort of like claiming to be the oldest person alive, when you're the last man on earth...

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8127 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 2):
Forgeard must have missed the memo about the 748 using thesame engines as the A350.

To claim that the A350 has new engines ("The A350 is a totally new aircraft — totally new — the wings are new, the fuselage is new and even the engines are new") and then clearly imply that the B747-8 does not have new engines ("The 747-8 is not much different from the 747 — it is just a little stretched — that’s it") exceeds the usual Airbus hyperbole. Shame on you, Mr. Forgeard.


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8109 times:

Quoting Doona (Reply 9):
Saying that an A/C is the most modern one of the century sounds a little stupid,



Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 7):
most modern aircraft of this century--so far


[Edited 2005-11-27 18:32:35]


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineElGreco From France, joined Nov 2005, 164 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7984 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 7):
Notice how he compares the A350 to the 748, instead of the 787.
Truth be told, the A350 is a derivative and the 748 is a derivative.

The 787 is the most modern aircraft of this century--so far. After all, this century is very young.



Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 4):
The reason A350 is all new is because after the fourth try, this what they came up with to properly compete with the 787... where as, the 747 has no competitor. Now, if everyone here thinks that Airbus came up with an all new design for charity... you are wrong. Remember, those statements of simply slapping on a the 7E7 engines on the A330 comments???

Even now, notice how Emirates is still not happy with the A359. Airbus will change their specs once more to accomodate EK.

748 can get away with this because the 748 has no competitor - simple as that. The A380 are for airlines who can fill 550 plus seats. If you can't do this, the 748 is a better choice. its just simple economics. The 748 could be Airbus' worst nightmare, at this point, because they dont have a plane to properly compete with the 450 seater, which the 748 is optimized for.

Cheers,

Guys you partially right:

787 is completly new, but the A350 is not so old, and they will change many thinks (engine, wings,...) and it's looks for the first time even the fuselage, furthermore, all equipement technology will come from the A380.

A380 is completly new too, but the 747-800 will only change the lenth and the engines.

So we will see at the end because this is not only technical but marketing/communication battle  box   box   box   box   box 



When you are right alone, you are wrong
User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7556 times:

Who do the PR people think they are fooling? Airline executives? Or the general public who do not care about airplane A to airplane B 95% of the time? Like the billboards Airbus put up around airports for the A350 saying its the most modern plane, who cares, and out of the people who care, who is dumb enough to be fooled by such a broad blanketing statement.


-AJR-
User currently offlineRigo From Australia, joined Sep 2005, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7020 times:

PR at work...

Usually I think A's executives are damn smart people (you don't become worlds #1 a/c manufacturer if you don't have some brains) but this is so ridiculous. IMO it would be much better to advertise the A350 as an A330NG, because that's what it is and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with it. To the contrary, building on such proven technology while incorporating the latest refinements is a conservative and wise approach. B is not designing the B787 from scratch for the sake of a "completely new" plane, but because bringing the 767, which is really older, it up to date would probably not be economically justified.

Just my 2 cents...


User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6888 times:

Quoting Rigo (Reply 14):
IMO it would be much better to advertise the A350 as an A330NG, because that's what it is and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with it.

! agree, is the 350 any more different from the 330 than say the 346, which they group together now.

Ruscoe


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6671 times:

Quote:
“We had many, many orders for the A380 before the carriers had even seen it and before it had made a single flight — that shows the confidence airlines have in us and in the A380,” explains Forgeard.

The same could be said for every aircraft out there, including the 787 & the A350. Airlines that order a new type of aircraft place their orders years before the aircraft makes their first flight.

Quote:
“Customers no longer get launch concessions but they still wanted the A380 and they still do.

Yes, customers get launch concessions, as the airlines is taking a high risk by ordering an aircraft years in advance before testing has started.

Quote:
“I’m totally fed up with these dramatised stories about delays,” he says, irately. “Instead of delivering the A380 in the second quarter of 2006 we are delivering it in the fourth quarter. In the history of civil aviation this is a very moderate delay — all the airlines know this — it’s a six-month delay — not the end of the world,” he jokes.

It is the customers that are complaining, yes, other programs have run into delays, but a 6 month delay is huge for airlines as you can be running from a peak to a non-peak schedule.

Quote:
The 747-8 is not much different from the 747 — it is just a little stretched — that’s it,” he adds.

Boeing has never claimed that the 747 is a brand new aircraft design, besides, the 747-800 will have new engines, stretched fuselage, etc.



Quote:
The A350 is a totally new aircraft — totally new — the wings are new, the fuselage is new and even the engines are new,” he claims resolutely. “It is the most modern aircraft of this century and we spent US$5.1 billion on its development.

This one has me a littler perplexed, what is the big deal if the A350 is based on the A330, that is a high comliment as the A330 is a good machine, besides, the airlines are out there purchasing the A350. Now, $5.1 billion is very cheap to invest in a brand new aircraft design, just look at the investment it took to get the 777, A380, & 787 in the air, based on an all new aircraft designs, it took over $10 billion US dollars.

Quote:
With deals for at least 65 Airbus aircraft signed off at last week’s Dubai airshow and a massive backlog of orders to deliver,

Could not agree more!  Smile



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineGrantcv From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6419 times:

It seems that Leahy is contagious.

User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2334 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6059 times:

I hate to say this, but I really do not like that Noel guy, he actually gives me the creeps.

I think this article serves as an all time low even for him, to start bashing the US when we talk about aviation...

I really do not like that guy. Period.

Boaz...



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5987 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 18):
I hate to say this, but I really do not like that Noel guy, he actually gives me the creeps.

Too bad EADS promoted him to co-chairman. He and Leahy were an effective "one-two punch" in the PR department. Humbert seems much more subdued and somber. Leahy can manage a whole lot of spin on his own, but a lot of journalists must be missing M. Forgeard terribly. In his new position, he has to be careful not to step on Herr Humbert. No, (insert Airbus fanboy name here) I don't have any source for this. It's just an opinion.

[Edited 2005-11-28 00:29:07]

[Edited 2005-11-28 00:31:24]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5909 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 2):
Forgeard must have missed the memo about the 748 using thesame engines as the A350

And the 748 will use them first... now who is innovative.


Frankly, he is technically correct because the A350 will be last to market, thus it will be the most "modern" aircraft at EIS, as it will be the newest. In 2010 you'd need to plot how "modern" the 787 or 748 of 1 or 2 years in service is against the new A350, and decide what modern even means.

But by 2010, the A350 will offer:

Lower cabin altitude with more humidity, as first seen on the 787
Bigger windows, as first seen on the ERJ
Advanced bleed-air engines, as first seen on the 748
Li-Al skin, as first seen on many other jets
Modern fly-by wire flightdeck, as first seen on other Airbus jets
2-4-2 fuselage with 2xLD3 lower deck, first seen on A300/310/330/340
etc.

A plane that takes some of the best parts of every jet that comes before, but hardly an innovation in the thing.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5867 times:

Noel is too funny. His comments remind me of child moved to the back of the class room who throws a paper aircraft into the hallway for attention once and a while.  Smile Of course he still can't top Mr. Leahy who claims the paper aircraft will clear the hallway, only to refuel at the door.  Smile


To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5856 times:

I like that AIR WARS title!

So who will be the chosen one to bring balance to the (air) force?
I' am certainly Han Solo flying the damn things then!


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5730 times:

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 21):
His comments remind me of child moved to the back of the class room who throws a paper aircraft into the hallway for attention once and a while. Of course he still can't top Mr. Leahy who claims the paper aircraft will clear the hallway, only to refuel at the door.

hahahahahahahahaha
Sounds like a great skit for SNL.
So I guess one of those is an HGW paper airplane made of thicker recycled construction A4 paper versus lightweight 8" x 11" looseleaf.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineNW727251ADV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5707 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
2-4-2 fuselage with 2xLD3 lower deck, first seen on A300/310/330/340
etc.

Hey Ikramerica...I have been reading your posts on here for a while and I really identify with you because we share a lot of the same opinions.

But anyway I wanted to correct that the 2-4-2 layout was first used on a large scale on L-1011s and DC-10s back in the 60s and 70s. But passenger demands eventually warrented the addition of the "prisoner in the middle 5th" seat to create the familiar 2-5-2 configuration.


25 Post contains images Stitch : Well if the A350 can be called "all new" with the same fuselage cross section as the A330 and A340, then folks should stop whining when the 737NG is c
26 NW727251ADV : I completely agree. And I know I may be putting my foot in my mind and i'm sure someone will gladly correct me if i'm wrong but, I dont ever remember
27 N79969 : Foergard is delusional. His remarks about subsidies, Airbus, and Boeing are without basis for the most part. It would be very unfortunate for Airbus (
28 Ruscoe : You've got to rememeber that Foregeared has to keep his political masters happy also. I'm unsure, but I think Foregeared was an Industrial advisor to
29 N79969 : I do not disagree...I think it shows the degree of dependence, financial and otherwise, that Airbus has on European political institutions. Let me ad
30 BoomBoom : By that line of reasoning, wouldn't the most recent aircraft manufactured, regardless of whether it's a 737 or A320, 767, A330, A340, 747 etc., be th
31 Cloudy : Why does he say "spent" rather than "will spend"? I suspect he originally meant the A380 and the wording got changed somewhere. If you subsititute "A
32 Post contains images Jacobin777 : this is what I see..
33 Mariner : An extremely successful businessman? cheers mariner
34 Post contains links and images Halibut : Well he certainly is not as dumb as he looks ! lol He kinda reminds me of that guy on the cover of Mad magazine . http://www.dccomics.com/mad/ Here i
35 Post contains images Jacobin777 : i thought i made myself perfectly clear with the two photos juxtaposed with each other...
36 RayChuang : Look, I think Airbus is upsetting EK because if Airbus has to put more and more "new" technology into the A350 it will push the EIS further back, and
37 MidnightMike : Good point, that would be like saying that the 737NG has a more advanced cockpit than the A320, since it came out later, which we know not to be true
38 Mariner : Sorry, I only see one photo. The first is a question mark, the second is one of M. Forgeard. cheers mariner
39 Ikramerica : But the A300 series aircraft has a narrower fuselage than those aircraft, but also has a more cylindrical shape to fit more cargo in pallets/containe
40 Iwok : The 717 is the most modern aircraft in the universe! EIS is not the only factor... -wiok
41 Post contains images NAV20 : A thoroughly incompetent performance IMO - can't possibly do any good and may do some harm. It's a pity that we don't get to know what the context of
42 BoomBoom : Perhaps he was drunk.
43 Grantcv : If you are wondering why everyone at Airbus keeps talking about the A350 being "all new", go and take a lesson in marketing. Listen carefully when you
44 Post contains images TrevD : Good God!! When did Ed Grimley go to work for Airbus ??
45 Post contains images Flyboy_se : When will it stop.Airbus this and Boeing that.I am tired of it,and i am sure i am not the only one. Isnt it really anything better to discuss then who
46 Post contains images Halibut : When Noel stops spinning    & talking trash ! So you'll need to ask Noel Forgeard that ! As soon as Noel Forgeard stops making comments like the A3
47 MidnightMike : In this thread, so far, not one person has said that Airbus makes a bad airplane, some people are being critical to some of the comments from Airbus.
48 Post contains images DistantHorizon : Yeah, right... He just took that company to nº 1 in the planet by accident... He is really a sick person, who should find some help...
49 N79969 : Yes-- my mistake. It was Foregeard that single-handedly accomplished that...right... He is a politically connected ex-bureaucrat and not a visionary
50 BoeingBus : The irony is that the hot head American - Leahey, has more to do with Airbus success than many over there... and he is just a sales guy. go figure...
51 Post contains links EI321 : Well reading the above comments perhaps some posters should just agree to disagree. It is clearly hard to define the terms 'all new' and 'modern' in t
52 NAV20 : Just for the record, Forgeard joined Airbus in 1998, as the protege' of the Lagardere Group (and, I suppose, the Elysee Palace). His main 'achievemen
53 EI321 : Have profits risen or fallen since he joined?
54 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : i see..(both-literally and figuratively)...so here's another attempt...
55 Post contains links NAV20 : EADS makes a small after-tax profit, E1321 - from memory, about 4% last year. You can look it up on here if you like:- http://www.eads.com/
56 Post contains images NW727251ADV : I believe it's McDonnell-Douglas
57 Mariner : I see now, too, and I wish you had not bothered - I suppose I could have guessed. Actually, I think I knew it would not be a flattering comparison. I
58 Halibut : Honestly , the anti/bash -American threads are by far much more offensive as well as off the wall . This thread came no where near that . Most people
59 Post contains images Jacobin777 : to be honest, I had no idea it was an old joke..maybe I haven't been a member long enough.....
60 Post contains links and images N328KF : Today's Dilbert is very apropos with regard to EADS/Airbus:
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