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Airlines Who Flew DC-10/L-1011 Together Profitably  
User currently offlineNW727251ADV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5986 times:

British Airways comes to mind (even though i'm not sure if it was successful) but are there any other big name carriers who operated both the L-1011 and DC-10 in tandem successfully without running into compatablity issues. It seems that most airlines opted for one or the other. PAN AM got rid of their DC-10s aquired from the National takeover rather quickly. The same for Delta and United got rid of their TriStars aquired from the buyout of United's pacific operations. Eastern Air Lines operated DC-10s as well for a period of time but I don't know how long.

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFLY2LIM From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1183 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5965 times:

Quoting NW727251ADV (Thread starter):
Eastern Air Lines operated DC-10s as well for a period of time but I don't know how long

This is news to me. I flew an L-1011 as late as 87 or 88 and I don't recall ever seeing a DC-10 in Eastern colors. But, I have been wrong before.
FLY2LIM



Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5947 times:

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 1):
I flew an L-1011 as late as 87 or 88 and I don't recall ever seeing a DC-10 in Eastern colors.


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User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5928 times:

If you consider the MD-11 really nothing more than modernized DC-10....Delta then had two separate ocassions of operating both types.

Profitable is a different story.



Delete this User
User currently offlineN757KW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5902 times:

Actually DL operated the DC-10's twice. The first time was in the 1970's while waiting on the L-1011 and again around 1986 after the merger with Western Airlines.

N757KW



"What we've got here, is failure to communicate." from Cool Hand Luke
User currently offlineBlsbls99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5898 times:

I believe Eastern flew 3 DC-10-30s for a period of time for their London services out of MIA. This was in addition to their L-1011 fleet.


319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5885 times:

Quoting NW727251ADV (Thread starter):
Eastern Air Lines operated DC-10s as well for a period of time but I don't know how long.

Here are the EA DC-10-30s details:

N390EA 47862/88 15/01/1986 - 08/10/1986
N391EA 47866/149 27/06/1985 - 20/09/1990
N392EA 47867/178 29/11/1985 - 27/09/1990

All were previous AZ aircraft.

Cheers.

M.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8739 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5875 times:

If the MD11 counts LTU of Germany is another airline that had both types.

Next one in Europe, BA after tghe BCAL take over,



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineNW727251ADV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5868 times:

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 6):
All were previous AZ aircraft

Really I never knew those DC-10s were from Alitalia. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for the info. Does anyone if Eastern was happy with the 10s???

[Edited 2005-11-28 22:08:37]

User currently offlineIAHcsr From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3354 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5846 times:
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Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 6):
All were previous AZ aircraft

All three came over to CO as Ships 064,067,068 .. 067 sadly becoming involved with the Concorde Event.



Working very hard to Fly Right....
User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2627 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5833 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 3):
If you consider the MD-11 really nothing more than modernized DC-10....Delta then had two separate ocassions of operating both types.

Actually three times. Once in the mid 70's when they leased several DC-10's while waiting for delivery of their first L-1011's. The second time was when they inherited DC-10's from the Western merger. If you count the MD-11, then that would be a third time.  Smile

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 1):
I don't recall ever seeing a DC-10 in Eastern colors.

IIRC, Eastern had a couple DC-10-30's in the mid 80's that were used exclusively on the MIA-LON route.  Smile

UA had both types after UA bought PA pacific operations. UA did not operate the L-1011 for too long. Most of them went to DL.

I don't think any U.S. carrier could operate both types side-by-side profitably. It is way too expensive to operate two similar types and keeping two different sets of pilots, parts, training, etc.


User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5819 times:

Eastern Air Lines used the DC10-30's on:

MIA to London Gatwick
MIA to Buenos Aries
MIA to Rio

For the most part .


Safe Flying  Smile



Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offlineJmc757 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2000, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5784 times:

Caledonian Airways operated both types after they were sold by BA in mid 1990's (I've Googled it and got 1993/1994 and 1995 - not sure what year). Whether they were profitable or not I'm not sure, but they continued to operate L1011's and DC10's until the big Thomas Cook/jmc shakeup in 1999. Unfortunately by then the fleets weren't all that reliable and their reputation wasn't the best. Thomas Cook/jmc retired all the L1011's but retained 2 DC10s until their newly ordered A330's arrived.


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User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5770 times:

Quoting Bohica (Reply 10):
UA had both types after UA bought PA pacific operations. UA did not operate the L-1011 for too long.

UA L1011 fleet:

L1011-500 N501PA 501 1176 10/02/1986 10/05/1988
L1011-500 N510PA 510 1194 11/02/1986 24/06/1988
L1011-500 N511PA 511 1195 12/02/1986 13/04/1989
L1011-500 N512PA 512 1197 11/02/1986 23/05/1989
L1011-500 N513PA 513 1208 10/02/1986 18/05/1988
L1011-500 N514PA 514 1210 12/02/1986 03/05/1988

Quoting NW727251ADV (Thread starter):
PAN AM got rid of their DC-10s aquired from the National takeover rather quickly.

Here are the details.

DC-10-10 N60NA 46700/14 07/01/1980 23/01/1984 "Clipper Meteor"
DC-10-10 N61NA 46701/16 07/01/1980 14/06/1984 "Clipper Evening Star"
DC-10-10 N62NA 46702/18 07/01/1980 13/05/1984 "Clipper Morning Star"
DC-10-10 N63NA 46703/19 07/01/1980 19/05/1984 "Clipper Eclipse"
DC-10-10 N64NA 46706/38 07/01/1980 05/02/1984 "Clipper Shooting Star"
DC-10-10 N65NA 46707/61 07/01/1980 23/06/1984 "Clipper National Eagle"
DC-10-10 N66NA 46708/62 07/01/1980 21/07/1984 "Clipper Sirius"
DC-10-10 N67NA 46709/68 07/01/1980 03/11/1983 "Clipper Star of Hope"
DC-10-10 N68NA 46710/70 07/01/1980 31/10/1983 "Clipper Star of Gazer"
DC-10-10 N69NA 46942/162 07/01/1980 24/11/1983 "Clipper Star Light"
DC-10-10 N70NA 46943/163 07/01/1980 19/07/1984 "Clipper Star King"
DC-10-30 N80NA 46711/105 07/01/1980 23/02/1984 "Clipper Star of the Union"
DC-10-30 N81NA 46712/106 07/01/1980 14/03/1984 "Clipper Atmosphere" - lst LAN-Chile as CC-CJN 12/06/1981-12/06/1982.
DC-10-30 N82AA 46713/165 07/01/1980 01/04/1984 "Clipper Aurora"
DC-10-30 N83NA 46714/167 07/01/1980 18/04/1984 "Clipper Celestial Empire"
DC-10-30 N84NA 47837/328 06/08/1980 28/04/1985

[Edited 2005-11-28 22:34:25]

User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5755 times:

What routes did Pan Am operate the DC10s on and what routes did United operate the L15s on? I know Pan Am ran the DC10s on some Houston routes (IAH-MSY for one) as did National when they had their minihub set up here.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5743 times:

Pan Am L1011-500 details:


N501PA 501 1176 02/07/1981 09/02/1986 "Clipper Eagle"
N503PA 503 1177 05/08/1980 26/03/1985 "Clipper Flying Eagle"
N504PA 504 1181 11/04/1980 19/09/1984 "Clipper National Eagle"
N505PA 505 1184 23/05/1980 07/01/1985 "Cliper Eagle Wing"
N507PA 507 1185 06/06/1980 28/01/1985 "Clipper Nothern Light"
N508PA 508 1186 27/06/1980 12/11/1984 "Clipper Bald Eagle"
N509PA 509 1188 15/07/1980 03/12/1984 "Clipper Golden Eagle"
N510PA 510 1194 15/04/1981 10/02/1986 "Clipper Geaorge T Baker"
N511PA 511 1195 13/03/1981 11/02/1986 "Clipper Black Hawk"
N512PA 512 1197 30/11/1981 10/02/1986 "Clipper War Hawk"
N513PA 513 1208 27/05/1981 09/02/1986 "Clipper Wild Duck"
N514PA 514 1210 30/11/1981 11/02/1986 "Clipper White Falcon"


User currently offlineNW727251ADV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5710 times:

Thanks for the info. I remembered Caledonian Airways but I didn't include them in my list of "majors".

User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5680 times:

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 14):
What routes did Pan Am operate the DC10s on

Here are some cities served: LAX/MIA/IAH/JFK/FRA/ORD/LHR/SFO. There should certainly be some other.


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User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5557 times:

American Trans Air (TZ) operated both the L-1011 and the DC-10.

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4253 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5546 times:

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 17):
Here are some cities served: LAX/MIA/IAH/JFK/FRA/ORD/LHR/SFO. There should certainly be some other.

PA also used the D10 on MIA-EWR (continuing to run National flight 8, but under a different flight #) until downgrading it to 727-200 and then dropping it completely.


User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5202 times:

I might be able to help you in the case of Eastern.

Originally, Eastern searched for L1011-500's for the MIA-LGW route, but could not come up with any. The only long range equipment available at the time were the three Alitalia DC-10-30's. Eastern had a pretty fast deadline to get the route started so they more or less settled for the DC-10's.

I have an article from "Aviation Week & Space Technology" published in the late 1980's that discusses how Eastern was looking for more DC-10's to replace the L1011's. Apparently, the L1011's were becoming more and more expensive to maintain due to the lack of parts. This was because Lockheed had abandoned the commercial aircraft sector in 1983.

So to answer the question, at first Eastern would have rather had L1011's instead of the DC-10's for commonality, but after they picked up a few DC-10's and slowly pulled the L1011's out of service, they found that DC-10's were more profitable to operate due to the availability of parts. By the time they figured this out, Eastern was having major financial difficulties and Texas Air sort of threw their hands up in the air and transferred the small DC-10 fleet to Continental. This was a short-term solution to long-term problems.

Again, the Eastern L1011's were unprofitable so they started to leave the fleet as well. By the time the company closed for good, only twelve L1011's remained in the fleet; all either grounded or being used for troop movement in the Middle East. According to the February 1991 OAG, the only scheduled Eastern L1011 service that would have remained would have been ATL-SJU on weekends only.


User currently offlineWDBRR From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

Eastern did fly the DC-10 from Miami to Buenos Aires, I remember booking it in reservations. It even had "J" class listed which was business section.

User currently offlineNW727251ADV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5156 times:

That is really interesting indeed Cody. I never stopped to think about what airlines operating TriStars did after Lockheed pretty much said "screw the commercial airline business". Its still funny though because other airlines didnt seem to run into that problem. Didn't Delta take most of the Eastern TriStars??? Or was that Cathay Pacific? Well it was one of them.

Off topic but I HATE the American Airlines bare-metal livery but something about Eastern's...I just love it! I love Eastern's bare-metal color scheme. It might also have something to do with the fact that blue is my favorite color and EA used blue tones for their cheatline.


User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5142 times:

Quoting Jmc757 (Reply 12):
Caledonian Airways operated both types after they were sold by BA in mid 1990's (I've Googled it and got 1993/1994 and 1995 - not sure what year). Whether they were profitable or not I'm not sure, but they continued to operate L1011's and DC10's until the big Thomas Cook/jmc shakeup in 1999. Unfortunately by then the fleets weren't all that reliable and their reputation wasn't the best. Thomas Cook/jmc retired all the L1011's but retained 2 DC10s until their newly ordered A330's arrived.

IIRC they ordered MD-11's..with RR engines!!!



http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5138 times:

I can only speculate, but Delta had a much larger L1011 fleet than Eastern so perhaps they had better Lockheed in-house engineering. Eastern L1011's were scattered, but most ended up at Delta or Cathay Pacific. One of them, N308EA, ironically the last EAL L1011 I ever flew on, is now being used in the show "Lost."

Eastern DC-10's did indeed have three classes of service. The DC-10's were used from MIA-LGW, Buenos Aires/Santiago, LAX, JFK and substitution flights. They also did Military charters and I think they provided lift for the "Business Break" Award flights from ATL-Hawaii. Can anyone confirm this?


25 NW727251ADV : You dont recall correctly. You're thinking of BRITISH CALEDONIAN AIRWAYS, or B-CAL, as it was affectionately known. Totally different airline which o
26 TriStar500 : Correct. BCAL also operated a few GE-powered B742, which left the BA fleet shortly after the takeover because of a lack of commonality with BA's flee
27 Post contains images FlyGuyClt : The L-1011 was used on the flight to HNL. ATL LAX HNL. Safe Flying
28 767-332ER : I think by including the MD-11 in this comparison it defeats the poster's purpose (my opinion). The DC-10 and L1011 were around the same time and were
29 MD90fan : Thats what meant, (BCAL) sorry I should have mentioned it.
30 Dl_mech : I asked about the "Business Break" flights about five years ago, and someone who actually took one of the flights replied that the flights were opera
31 Post contains images FlyGuyClt : CO did do some towards the end. But, for the most part Eastern flew them themselves with the L-1011. Safe Flying
32 Post contains images NW727251ADV : I agree for the most part. Not too many airlines were operating DC-10s/MD-11s or L-1011/MD-11 combinations. DL is the only airline that comes to mind
33 DIA : "I agree for the most part. Not too many airlines were operating DC-10s/MD-11s or L-1011/MD-11 combinations. DL is the only airline that comes to mind
34 EA CO AS : Part of the big problem EA had after the machinists' strike was that they machined their own L10 parts in-house - something the replacement workers we
35 Post contains links and images Jeffry747 : View Large View MediumPhoto © Frank C. Duarte Jr. Note the B-CAL DC-10 in the background.
36 NW727251ADV : Thanks for the pic Jeffry747. I have a similar picture in one of my aviation books.
37 DIA : On a sidenote...I'm curious...regarding the photo just above... What airline is DC-9 just above the BCAL 747, and just in front of the BCAL DC-10?
38 474218 : That's interesting that Lockheed abandoned the commerical aircraft sector in 1983. I worked in L-1011 product support for 20 years, right up to the d
39 Carpethead : UA operated the L-1011-500 for a short time after purchasing Pan Am's Pacific assets back in 1986. Not sure about profitability, but probably during t
40 MakeMinesLAX : Hawaiian operated both Tristars and DC-10s, although not simultaneously. I recall the swap-out was due to maintenance woes with the former. Wasn't Eas
41 EA CO AS : Yes, which is why they initially sought L-1011-500s for the role.
42 CF-CPI : The DC-10-30s had engine commonality with the A300 B4s, and I recall reading a Frank Borman interview saying that for this reason, getting a few DC-10
43 Post contains images FlyGuyClt : The "Business Break" flights for the most part were operated in house by Eastern Air Lines. They did infact use L 1011's. The routing was from ATL to
44 Post contains links and images FlyGuyClt : View Large View MediumPhoto © Frank C. Duarte Jr. View Large View MediumPhoto © Ignatiy Savranskiy Adria Airways is now part of the Star Al
45 NW727251ADV : I also read on this forum a few weeks back that apparently Continental had placed/were to place an order for the L-1011. I even recall reading that Lo
46 PennPal : Didn't Eastern buy those 3 DC-10s from Air Florida??? I know Air Florida was flying them MIA-LGW in the 1980's, and I was sure Eastern took over that
47 NW727251ADV : That couldn't be because Air Florida leased those DC-10s. I forgot from which airline and its right on the tip of my tongue. Anyways, it isn't possib
48 Jetdeltamsy : Eastern acquired a few DC10's when we started MIA-LGW. The aircraft were sent to South America and Los Angeles as well, but were acquired to serve th
49 Cody : Poor wording on my part. I should have said, "since Lockheed stopped production of the L1011 in 1983". There were five Air Florida DC-10's. Three wer
50 Quickmover : "I can only speculate, but Delta had a much larger L1011 fleet than Eastern" Did Delta initially order more L10s or was the fleet larger because they
51 ORD : Continental did not place an order for L-1011s, rather they were going to be shifted from Eastern back when Lorenzo controlled both airlines. I don't
52 NW727251ADV : Thats what I was thinking. I could have sworn that i've read (on more than one occassion) that technically Eastern was in fact the largest operator o
53 474218 : Eastern purchased 37 L-1011's from Lockheed, TWA 38 and Delta 44, including 3 -500's. Delta also added ex Eastern -1's and -500's from Pan Am and Air
54 Post contains links and images Zippyjet : View Large View MediumPhoto © Sunbird Photos by Don Boyd But wait! There's more! Not only did Eastern fly the L10's and Dc-10's concurrently, th
55 474218 : TWA converted 6 L-1011-1's to -100's for their transatlantic service in the mid 1970's. Then came back and bought 5 new -100's in the late 70's. The
56 A999 : Zippyjet: EA also flew a fourth widebody; the 747-100. Another off-topic matter: isn`t it a bit strange that long-time DC-8/DC-9 customers like EA and
57 WDBRR : Yes, this is true. Eastern flew a few 747's in the early 70's before they received the L1011. I believe the 747's were leased from Pan Am at the time
58 474218 : EA flew Lockheed Constellation's and Electra's and even though DL flew DC-8's the Convair 880 was their first large jet. AA and UL always preferred D
59 A999 : Sorry. I just forgot that UA was a major DC-8 user.
60 Post contains links and images Zippyjet : You are very astute. EAL leased those early 747's back in '70 while waiting for their L1011's to come in. Re: Lockheed: Eastern was always a big Lock
61 Magyarorszag : My answer is no, because: Cheers.
62 Post contains links and images Magyarorszag : View Large View MediumPhoto © F. de Ruiter
63 NASCARAirforce : ***UA had both types after UA bought PA pacific operations. UA did not operate the L-1011 for too long. Most of them went to DL*** Yeah they were know
64 NW727251ADV : Well PanAm didn't really go for the DC-10s. They acquired them through the National merger and they were disposed of rather quickly due to incompatab
65 DouglasDC10 : Delta and especially Eastern were both interested in the DC-10 and might have placed orders if they would have received the same discount from McDonne
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