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Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises  
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3604 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 12424 times:

Emirates says it must be convinced the A350 will not repeat recent “misses” by Airbus in performance and delivery targets for new aircraft if it is to beat the Boeing 787 in the long-running battle to replace the airline’s 777-200ER fleet from the end of the decade.

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...mirates+wary+of+A350+promises.html

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 12388 times:

Interesting is that he also reaffirms that they will keep the a345's and take delivery of the a346's. But if A drops the ball here, it may have reprecussions for years to come, especially for such an important Airbus customer.


L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 12369 times:

Thanks for the article......really interesting and controversial.

I hope that the Airbus gang does not get too upset, but it is becoming clear that there are some problems in Tolouse, and that some Airbus products are missing their performance targets and that the A380 program is falling behind schedule is a VERY big deal to some key airlines. Airbus cannot afford for a customer like EK to be unhappy - it will be interesting to see if EK will order the A359 as everyone once expected?


Sidenote - The article says that EK will be keeping its FIVE A345s - dont they have TEN of the type?


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12270 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
Airbus cannot afford for a customer like EK to be unhappy

It is noteworthy that they made these comments public rather than confining them to private conversations with Airbus.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12220 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 3):
It is noteworthy that they made these comments public rather than confining them to private conversations with Airbus.

More incredible than noteworthy, N79969! I had thought that they were trying to squeeze Airbus on a future A350 order (and still get the deposits on the A340's moved!) but this article, and its pointed and direct warning to Airbus, indicates that something is amiss. Some on this forum will take strong exception to this, but this type of stuff usually happens behind the scenes, not in the trade pubs!



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12137 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
More incredible than noteworthy, N79969! I had thought that they were trying to squeeze Airbus on a future A350 order (and still get the deposits on the A340's moved!) but this article, and its pointed and direct warning to Airbus, indicates that something is amiss. Some on this forum will take strong exception to this, but this type of stuff usually happens behind the scenes, not in the trade pubs!

I would not go that far. Several years ago, several Boeing customers made clear that they were not happy with the product quality (as in number of defects per aircraft) they were getting and it was reported not only in the specialized press but also in papers such as the Wall Street Journal. I do not think that was an accidental slip either. Embarassment can be a useful tool


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12091 times:

Isn't competition great!!! I love it when a Airbus or Boeing earns their orders with great products, rather than attain them politically which happens so frequently.

Go Emirates!



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineAV757 From Colombia, joined Apr 2004, 660 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12020 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I guess Emirates is not very happy with their Airbus dispatch reliability and that design performance goals of the A340's have not been met with their fleet.

AV757


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11879 times:

i've been a victim of EK's Airbus dispatch reliability problem a few times...I've had various EK flights delayed (by up to 7 hours) because of it...in fact, I avoid flying EK long haul now, especially when they use an Airbus plane on that particular route..ie.-such as JFK-DXB-JFK....


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11866 times:

THIS IS A PR DISASTER!!!!

I can't think of a more devastating indictment than to have one of your best customers say "recent experiences with new Airbus types not meeting all the manufacturer’s promises is partly responsible for Emirates’ indecision."

Boeing doesn't have to trash talk Airbus. Emirates does it for them.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11624 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
THIS IS A PR DISASTER!!!!

I can't think of a more devastating indictment than to have one of your best customers say "recent experiences with new Airbus types not meeting all the manufacturer’s promises is partly responsible for Emirates’ indecision."

I would not get too carried away. While it is a clear shot across their bow to explicitly warn Airbus against complacency, I do not think it is a "pr disaster." In fact, Emirates confirmed that they will take delivery of previously ordered A340 rather than cancelling them.

I think the message is that Airbus needs to tread carefully and should not take Emirates for granted.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30855 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11585 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I think the message is that Airbus needs to tread carefully and should not take Emirates for granted.

Agreed, just as NH took Boeing to public task over the 787's weight, and followed with public praise when they pretty much eliminated it or your points in Reply #5 about customers catigating Boeing in the WSJ.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11567 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
In fact, Emirates confirmed that they will take delivery of previously ordered A340 rather than cancelling them.

Separate issue. Let's just take this at face value since they can use the aircraft. Also, could be that they can't get out of the order w/o a serious financial penalty? Or...they are still negotiating on the A350. Or...they have decided to go with the 787? Who knows? At least in this article the deliveries of the A346's are not tied into their dissatisfaction with "performance and delivery targets". IMO, this public rebuke stems from disappointment over the A380 delivery delay.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineHansaRostock From Germany, joined Aug 2005, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11555 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 6):
Isn't competition great!!! I love it when a Airbus or Boeing earns their orders with great products, rather than attain them politically which happens so frequently.

signed!!

I'd love to see (and fly) Boeing AND Airbus as long as I live....who wants to stay with GM,Mecedes,Mazda or Renault (&Co) for 60 years??  Smile
Airlines pushing(warning) A&B is best for aviation....



Yoooo soy de HANSA....este sentimiento que me va a mataaaar....
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11534 times:

I think the problem here is not with its A345 dispatch reliability, it has more to do with the un-satisfactory delay and problems with the current A380's.

If the dispatch reliability and performance of the A345 was SOOO BAD as every body is saying then why even bother keep the A346's order.

EK is happy with the birds, there is no reliable word that states otherwise.

The warning gives clear indication that the A350 is not in the bag, and if they are going to order a fare amount of the aircrafts such as the B787 and A350 it better arrive ON TIME and ORDERED TO SPEC.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11503 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
Let's just take this at face value since they can use the aircraft. Also, could be that they can't get out of the order w/o a serious financial penalty? Or...they are still negotiating on the A350. Or...they have decided to go with the 787? Who knows? At least in this article the deliveries of the A346's are not tied into their dissatisfaction with "performance and delivery targets". IMO, this public rebuke stems from disappointment over the A380 delivery delay.


Perhaps you are right...or not. Anyway my point is that this pronouncement is not quite a "disaster." A PR (and financial) disaster would be if Emirates would be if they cancelled some or all of their outstanding Airbus orders and ordered Boeing aircraft in their place. That would require some heroic PR work to fix. I do not expect this to ever happen.


User currently offlineBlue787 From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10459 times:

Dutchjet, not only do Airbus not want upset only EK,but also SQ and QF, will not be happy little campers if Airbus start yanking their chains.They too have reputations to upkeep.Thing of the people in scheduling and marketing.It will not make their life easy.

User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10206 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 5):
I would not go that far. Several years ago, several Boeing customers made clear that they were not happy with the product quality (as in number of defects per aircraft) they were getting and it was reported not only in the specialized press but also in papers such as the Wall Street Journal. I do not think that was an accidental slip either. Embarassment can be a useful tool

Going from memory, I believe these items were leaked from someone within Boeing from what I would call normal communication between the customer and Boeing (all technical discussions/questions/answers are kept in a database per FAA rules).

Customers are constantly complaining about one thing or another to both Airbus and Boeing, but isn't meant to be released to the public, but more of the squeaky wheel syndrome, as everyone thinks their problem of the day is more important than someone elses.

Cheers


User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1304 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10160 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I think the message is that Airbus needs to tread carefully and should not take Emirates for granted.

 checkmark 
And this is the reason why they do it publicly rather than behind closed doors with Airbus staff. I cannot think of a better warning just one week after placing a mammoth order with the competition.



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9987 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
The warning gives clear indication that the A350 is not in the bag, and if they are going to order a fare amount of the aircrafts such as the B787 and A350 it better arrive ON TIME and ORDERED TO SPEC.

Drew

Might we be seeing that Leahy's claim of 200 orders for the A350 by year-end is in jeopardy? After all, many of us assumed that Leahy's figure included an EK order.

[Edited 2005-11-29 07:07:47]

User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9824 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 23):
Might we be seeing that Leahy's claim of 200 orders for the A350 by year-end is in jeopardy? After all, many of us assumed that Leahy's figure included an EK order.

I think he would be a fool if was counting on that order. But they seem to be getting enough orders from Europe and the Middle East so that they have a chance without EK and that might be why he is reiterating the 200 figure.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9781 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 3):
It is noteworthy that they made these comments public rather than confining them to private conversations with Airbus.

They probably made the same concerns known to Airbus several times already and never got a response or were simply denied that there was a problem at all.

Quoting HansaRostock (Reply 17):
Airlines pushing(warning) A&B is best for aviation....

Douglas and Lockheed forever  Smile

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 11):
Are all the AB stalwarts asleep or hiding?!?!? Nothing from UDO and the like??!?!? Are some people away on vacation??? The silence is defeaning!!!

Keesje is still asleep I think, or maybe getting dressed to go to school by now  Smile

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
I think the problem here is not with its A345 dispatch reliability, it has more to do with the un-satisfactory delay and problems with the current A380's.

I think rather it's the fact that there are problems time and again, reliability of the 345, performance of others, now the delay in the 380.
Emirates is asking publicly whether they should believe any Airbus claim anymore...



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9670 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 25):
Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 20):
I heard that Qantas aren't too pleased with how the A380 is going, as they have had to significantly reduce to seat count due the airframe weight issues and Airbus' stance that it could be recovered via a reduction in interior weight.
Qantas' problem is the seats they purchased aren't light, therefore they had to reduce the number.

I heard.........from NAV20

Ah, bulk buying power! No wonder EK bought 43 - they get the lightweight A388's that they can put 650 seats in....

It appears not... LOL


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9641 times:

Airbus needs to stop what they are doing and take a look at how Boeing markets new aircraft. Boeing only promises what it can deliver and in most cases they deliver better than what they promised. Customers are not worried about placing an order for a paper aircraft at Boeing because they know that the specs will be met or exceeded. Airbus has failed to deliver on promise time after time and continues to do so with the A380. They have the loudest marketing department and they are always out there but they are out there giving bad information.

The largest downside to the way Boeing does marketing is that they have lost orders due to under estimating their numbers, however as we have learned with the EK order they can still get those orders back!

It comes down to trust. If the airlines cant trust Airbus because they promise one thing and deliver another the customer will never know what the hell they are going to get. The airlines will stop ordering paper airplanes and Airbus will not have any orders until the aircraft are built, but without the orders the aircraft will never launch.?..?...



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9611 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
Sidenote - The article says that EK will be keeping its FIVE A345s - dont they have TEN of the type?

They probably don't have a lot of choice, as they sold and leased back several of these airplanes.

Cheers


25 797charter : You are right! A "fight of the Giants" is going on out there! And the Winner is: You and mere, - we get (at least) two new superior airplanes, which
26 Keesje : Discount times at A are over. Airlines hate it. It´s tough negotations, anything to get the prices down.
27 FCKC : That's great Emirates point out they feeling publicaly , and not secretly. Are we enter a new era , where some informations will go public ? Very exci
28 Toulouse : Very well put, and I was also thinking how they could use this "embarassement" as a "useful tool". Well said BoeingBus! Agreed! Agreed! Very ture UAL
29 Post contains images Glideslope : " target=_blank>http://www.flightinternational.com/A....html No surprise here. This is Airbus' #1 problem. Due mainly to the Mouth of Mr. Leahy over t
30 Joni : Could you mention a few such misses? I can really only think of the A380 delay. AFAIK the A345 and A346 have exceeded their performance targets and t
31 Jush : It could be a bit of strategy to further drop the price of future A350, couldn't it? Regds jush
32 Abba : And one of the Japan airlines have been telling Boeing that they were very unhappy with the 787 being overweight. It is always good when it is the bu
33 Atmx2000 : No, they were concerned that the 787 was going to be overweight based on current design specs, not that it was an overweight aircraft as no 787 has b
34 JetMaster : Dispatch reliability of which type? A313, A332, A343 or A345? Have there ever been reports on that? And have there been reports of EK having problems
35 VinnieWinnie : That's a bit far fetched I find! Especially if you have the A380 in mind! We don't even know how well it will perform in the future since it hasn't b
36 N79969 : I agree...by making their displeasure clear in public they turned up the heat a notch on Airbus. Of course....this is it! The massive B777 order last
37 Cruiser : It is about 1-2% off of the target. This is ahead of schedule with regards to the weight of the plane. The A380 was happy that they got it to within
38 Keesje : An even bigger A340 order? N79969, what are you talking about? Any links? I think we can not make assumptions on price & conditions, which are obviou
39 Astuteman : Suspect you're right. EK are capacity hungry, and want their planes NOW As Airbus haven't anywhere near delivered an A380 to EK yet, I struggle to un
40 N328KF : Did they teach you sarcasm in school?
41 Cruiser : It comes down to a little bit more than price. EK wants a decent delivery date. If delivery date wasn't an issue, then it sounds like EK would order
42 Post contains images Ikramerica : He's joking, K. His point was: price reduction on what? A huge A340 order? Of course the answer is, price reduction on the A359, the topic of the art
43 Post contains images Cruiser : You should be careful - I think Keesje almost had a heart-attack there! James
44 Post contains images Keesje : No, thats unusual around here.
45 UAL747DEN : The A340 has had many many problems meeting expectations. Airlines have publicly voiced their dissatisafication with it on many occations. Then of co
46 Xkorpyoh : I was just reading Newsweek and saw a 3 page ad for the A350. First page claims that it will save more fuel than its competitor currently operating (
47 Jacobin777 : correct, during the past year, I've flown on EK more than 1/2 dozen times (with the last being in September).......and it has happened to me on my la
48 N79969 : These ads are based on partial-truth and untruths...and they are annoying...especially the pop-ups. I think Airbus is resorting to bombardment and en
49 DAYflyer : With the track recent record of Airbus, can't say I blame them much. First the A-340 fiasco, now the A-380 launch delays, and an another unproven air
50 Lehpron : What I find interesting is that I get the feeling that both Boeing and Airbus are trying to pimp orders to EK, an airline that seems to be the one cal
51 Post contains images QFA001 : I personally do not believe that Airbus requires an EK A350 order to make it to 200 by year-end. With today's news that TAP has all ready decided to
52 Shenzhen : Ya, I guess the top guy at Emirates Airline making a public statement like has happened isn't in the public forum. It sounds like the plane has some
53 Abrelosojos : = Can someone tell me what exactly is dispatch reliability and how does it work? I want details people to be educated. Thanks, A.
54 NYC777 : We shouldn't forget the potential problem with the wake vorticies generated by the A380. If these findings are made final by mid next year it would be
55 N79969 : Not sure if this is exact but I think "dispatch relability" is defined by the percentage of flights that depart within 15 minutes of the scheduled ti
56 Post contains images FlyAUA : ....defined by the percentage of flights that depart within 15 minutes of the scheduled time, AT DELIVERY
57 OldAeroGuy : No, at anytime during an airplane's service life. Airlines keep careful records of the dispatch reliability for the airplanes in their fleet. They th
58 Astuteman : Show me where he said the A380 underperformed. you're a funny goy LOL
59 FlyAUA : Yes but airlines are only interested in what this will be at delivery, and how fast it will reach a reliable enough figure, since the faults causing
60 BoomBoom : It was my understanding that the A340 never reached a reliable enough figure. That's the problem.
61 GARPD : You don't really believe that, do you?
62 Ken777 : An interesting situation for Airbus and therefore Boeing. I can see the B sales team telling EK that they are working with component suppliers to open
63 N79969 : This is incorrect. Dispatch reliability rates are measured by aircraft types. OldAeroGuy is right. It is an ongoing measurement that is not connected
64 OldAeroGuy : No, on some aircraft they are never solved. And thanks for the confirmation N79969.
65 Abrelosojos : Thanks all for the educational lesson on dispatch reliability. Now part II, why does the A340 have such a poor record? I am not technically savvy so a
66 OldAeroGuy : One reason can be the number of engines. Twice the number of engines can lead to lower dispatch reliability. It's not just the engines themselves tha
67 BoomBoom : What is the dispatch reliability of the A340, 777 and A330?
68 Gigneil : It doesn't have THAT bad a figure. Significantly better than the M11's, for example. Its dispatch reliability has improved significantly. N
69 OldAeroGuy : In rough numbers for all fleets: A340: 98.5% A330: 99.0% 777: 99.2% While theee may seem like small differences, they show that an A340 is delayed tw
70 Zeke : You look at the IATA delay codes, most of them are not maintenance related, I think IATA list has 70 standard causes of delays, most of which are not
71 N60659 : Good discussion. I have one question - is there a marked difference between the dispatch reliabilities of ETOPS-rated twins as opposed to non-ETOPS r
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