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WN In Denver According To A WSJ Article  
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4313 posts, RR: 28
Posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4621 times:

You need a subscription to view the entire article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1133...85608660.html?mod=home_page_one_us

Some highlights that I found interesting:

But Southwest's days as an industry upstart may be drawing to a close. When it began flying in 1971, it terrorized established carriers with rock-bottom fares made possible by no-frills service and shrewd use of secondary airports. But hard times are driving big changes in the industry. With other airlines slashing costs both inside and outside of bankruptcy court, Southwest is losing its industry lock on low fares.

I've been hearing about WN's decline for over 17 years now since I started following the carrier's rise. This is the first time I've read about it in a reputable publication.

And the fuel-hedge mantra continues....

One of Southwest's main cost advantages over other airlines is likely to melt away over the next few years. When oil prices were low, Southwest shrewdly executed extensive fuel hedges to lock in low prices. For the past 18 months, the benefits have been huge, but they will shrink steadily over the next five years. If oil prices remain high, Southwest won't be able to negotiate new hedges at attractive prices, bringing its fuel costs more in line with other airlines.

But this is interesting...

Frontier and United already have matched the low fares Southwest announced for its flights between Denver and Phoenix, Las Vegas and Chicago, which are scheduled to begin on Jan. 3. With comparable fares, passengers will be choosing between no-frills Southwest and two airlines that unlike Southwest offer assigned seating and premium features such as first-class sections, more legroom and in-flight entertainment.

And people claim there is no such thing as a "Southwest Affect". Nice how Frontier and United have decided (for now) to stop gouging Denver passengers since Southwest is coming to town.


I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5154 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4572 times:

I think they are way off base. Save for the DirecTV all the airlines will offer similar frills (or lack there of) on those short segments to PHX/LAS. Besides they are omitting the huge customer base WN has at LAS and PHX and if I'm not mistaken WN has 33" of pitch. F9 and UA are already in a financial pitch. I think they are off target on this article. I think they'll be able to coexist with WN at DEN but the winners here are DEN O&D because they've been reamed for so long.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3923 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4571 times:
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do we know what gates they will be using??


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4518 times:

You know every time there is a commentary about WN in the media, the formula is always the same:
1. Here comes Southwest
2. Southwest announces cities and fares
3. The dominant carriers decide to match fares
4. The competitive edges Southwest provides
5. The "Southewest Effect"
6. Everybody finds a way to co-exsist or the dominants adjust their schedule

This article makes it seem that DEN is the first city ever served by WN. I am sure Kelleher is swirling his gin and tonic with a grin on face about all the extra, unpaid media attention.  Smile


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4500 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 3):
I am sure Kelleher is swirling his gin and tonic with a grin on face about all the extra, unpaid media attention.

Undoubtedly, except that he'd be drinking Wild Turkey...  Wink


User currently offlineSocalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4487 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
I've been hearing about WN's decline for over 17 years now since I started following the carrier's rise. This is the first time I've read about it in a reputable publication.

There is no such thing as a reputable publication. The media is the media, end of story.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4313 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4481 times:

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 5):
There is no such thing as a reputable publication. The media is the media, end of story.

Agreed.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13508 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4432 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
Nice how Frontier and United have decided (for now) to stop gouging Denver passengers since Southwest is coming to town.

Hogwash.

WN comes to town and they slash fares not out of a feeling of generosity to the traveling public, not because they're charitable and giving, and not out of a moment of lunacy.

It's because they're trying to capture market share from competitors.

Plain and simple. It's designed to stimulate traffic as a new entrant to a market and steal market share in the process.

The folks at DEN haven't been "gouged" or anything like it. Unfortunately, there is this mental image that people get of shackled prisoners being released from the Bastille when WN comes to town, and it's simply not accurate for the most part.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4420 times:

"do we know what gates they will be using??"


I read somewhere that USAir would be moving down to the America West gates on the west end of C and Southwest would take the old USAir gates. Now, with ATA pulling out, I wouldn't be surprised if they took that gate too down the road.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4313 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4375 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):
The folks at DEN haven't been "gouged" or anything like it.

Really? Every time I flew there the fares charged by United and their retarded off-spring, Ted, were pretty steep (at least on walk-up fares).



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4488 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4278 times:

Hogwash. WN comes to town and they slash fares not out of a feeling of generosity to the traveling public, not because they're charitable and giving, and not out of a moment of lunacy.It's because they're trying to capture market share from competitors.Plain and simple. It's designed to stimulate traffic as a new entrant to a market and steal market share in the process.

That's not quite the whole picture. Southwest has typically been on the lower end of cost structures in the industry, and they can make money charging lower fares than network competitors. Although the network carriers have reduced their cost structures since 9/11, there still seems to be enough of a gap that there is a considerable Southwest effect in new markets. The huge increase in enplanements at PHL since WN's entry is a prominent example.

The folks at DEN haven't been "gouged" or anything like it. Unfortunately, there is this mental image that people get of shackled prisoners being released from the Bastille when WN comes to town, and it's simply not accurate for the most part.

In many markets, like Buffalo or Albany, Southwest's arrival is exactly a liberating effect. US Airways gouged Upstate New York mercilessly while they could. The strong increases in enplanements at Upstate airports since Southwest and other LCC's entered starting around 2000 tell the real story.

And again, PHL's massive enplanements increase since WN's entry indicates that there was pent-up demand being stifled by US Airways' hub pricing. The so-called image is a reality.

Denver, however, may not see a such a massive enplanements increase. DEN has an established LCC in Frontier, so travelers probably aren't getting gouged on any route F9 serves. Also, according to many of our A.netters, WN isn't likely to get as many gates in DEN as WN has been able to get in PHL. Denver experts would need to say more.

Jim


User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4250 times:

Unless US gives up a gate when they move, WN only has 2 gates available to them: One is empty right now, the other occupied by TZ.

User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4229 times:

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
George Santayana


You don't have to look back very far to see how well F9 competes with significant new competition at DEN. In February 2004, amid much fanfare, UA launched its Ted product targeting F9 at DEN. The same forecasts came from the analysts and posters on this board. National name, FFP, big vs. small, unique service and connection possibilities would significantly damage F9.

Today, Ted's market share languishes at 6% to 7%, the same as a year ago in spite of added flights and capacity as well as a DEN targeted ad campaign. Much of that share was what UA mainline already had. At the same time, F9 has gained 3% to 4% more market share as UA's overall share diminishes at DEN. Clearly, UA's stated goal for Ted of stopping the loss of market share to LCCs - especially F9 at DEN - has failed.

How has F9 competed so well? They have focused on the DEN originating portion of the DEN O&D traffic. In the high traffic seasons, they hardly compete for the connecting traffic from other cities with their pricing, preferring the high yield DEN O&D traffic. And then, most importantly, there is the flying experience. Look at the trip reports on this site from actual passengers, OA employees included, and you will find 95% are rave reviews.

F9 will hold its own against anyone at DEN. WN will get two gates at DEN and have its hands full keeping them profitable, let alone adding more.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4189 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
Nice how Frontier and United have decided (for now) to stop gouging Denver passengers since Southwest is coming to town.

I am just enchanted by the idea of Frontier "gouging" anyone.

If Frontier was gouging, why did United start low fare Ted to compete with Frontier?

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1945 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4137 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
With comparable fares, passengers will be choosing between no-frills Southwest and two airlines that unlike Southwest offer assigned seating and premium features such as first-class sections, more legroom and in-flight entertainment.

This sentence really seems to be pushing the limits (of truthfulness). Does United offer more legroom than Southwest (in economy)? United's IFE is basically non-existent (OK... really poor). Frontier has nice IFE, but doesn't it cost $5?

I'm not exactly a WN fanboy, but this really seems like unfair reporting.


User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 14):
United's IFE is basically non-existent

I’ve got to hand one to Untied on this.

Channel 9. The only perk I wish SWA offered.

 Wink


User currently offlineAZFLYER84 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
Frontier and United already have matched the low fares Southwest announced for its flights between Denver and Phoenix, Las Vegas and Chicago, which are scheduled to begin on Jan. 3

HP/US have also matched fares to DEN.....


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1945 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4018 times:

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 15):
I’ve got to hand one to Untied on this.

Channel 9. The only perk I wish SWA offered.

I agree with you on this. Most people on A-net probably agree too.... but I don't think the majority of people really care about channel 9. They'd certainly rather have PTV's.


User currently offlineUAPremierGuy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4000 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 14):
This sentence really seems to be pushing the limits (of truthfulness). Does United offer more legroom than Southwest (in economy)? United's IFE is basically non-existent (OK... really poor). Frontier has nice IFE, but doesn't it cost $5?

I'm not exactly a WN fanboy, but this really seems like unfair reporting.

What are you talking about? United does offer more legroom than any other domestic carrier with its Economy Plus section featuring up to 5 more inches of legroom than standard Economy. United's IFE has been repeatedly, and just was again, voted the best among US Domestic carriers. It has some level of IFE, including Channel 9, on ALL of its mainline fleet, with personal seatback videos on 3-class 777's and 767's. Your assertion that United's IFE is "basically non-existent" is patently false.



It's Time To Fly!
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1945 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3975 times:

Quoting UAPremierGuy (Reply 18):
What are you talking about? United does offer more legroom than any other domestic carrier with its Economy Plus section featuring up to 5 more inches of legroom than standard Economy. United's IFE has been repeatedly, and just was again, voted the best among US Domestic carriers. It has some level of IFE, including Channel 9, on ALL of its mainline fleet, with personal seatback videos on 3-class 777's and 767's. Your assertion that United's IFE is "basically non-existent" is patently false.

I'm not trying to start an anti-United war. Don't get excited. I'm only stating that I think the way this is written implies that if you travel on United or Frontier you WILL get more legroom AND IFE.

Fine. More room in economy plus. For everyone else in economy is it not LESS legroom than WN?

IMHO, United's IFE is bad. For domestic flights, especially on routes which compete with WN, I NEVER find myself on a 3-class 777 or 767. Thus, I end up with channel 9 (which is great... but see my previous post) and some canned programming on screens hanging over the aisle. I'm only stating that FOR ME it's really no better than the IFE on WN (none). That said, on domestic flights, IFE is a non-factor to me.


User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3958 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 14):
Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
With comparable fares, passengers will be choosing between no-frills Southwest and two airlines that unlike Southwest offer assigned seating and premium features such as first-class sections, more legroom and in-flight entertainment.

This sentence really seems to be pushing the limits (of truthfulness). Does United offer more legroom than Southwest (in economy)? United's IFE is basically non-existent (OK... really poor). Frontier has nice IFE, but doesn't it cost $5?

The answer to your first question answer is yes.......and no. It depends on where the passenger is seated. UA elite FFs are automatically seated in Economy Plus which boasts a roomy 36" seat pitch. Remaining seats go to other MP members and those lucky enough to get them at the airport. There was some word recently that UA would begin to sell these preferred seats at a premium. Economy Plus seats on Ted flights (the only nonstop routes WN is competeing on out of DEN are exclusively TED) number 66 while the remaining 90 or so are the cramped legacy standard 31" seat pitch. F9 offers a 33" seat pitch throughout its Airbi fleet.

Ted flights also feature both audio and video IFE however the video product does not feature LIVE TV as offered by F9. Sean Donohue of UA, Ted's Godfather, was quoted recently as saying IFE is becoming less important because "most" people bring their own entertainment on board such as I-Pods. Either he spends too much time in his office on Algonquin Blvd or its just a sour grapes response to those carriers who compete with a superior IFE offering, IMO.

Yes, F9 charges $5 for their IFE system. And the point remains that it is available vs. NO CHOICE on WN.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Additionally, neither Ted or F9 compete with first class sections on any of the routes mentioned. That statement in the article not only pushes the limits of truthfulness, its just wrong.



Quoting UAPremierGuy (Reply 18):
It has some level of IFE, including Channel 9, on ALL of its mainline fleet, with personal seatback videos on 3-class 777's and 767's.

The subject does not include UA mainline and you'll be hard-pressed to find a 777 or 767 in Ted livery.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4313 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
am just enchanted by the idea of Frontier "gouging" anyone.

If Frontier was gouging, why did United start low fare Ted to compete with Frontier?

Ok, Mariner, I agree F9 is not "gouging" anyone. And, in fact, after I posted that comment I realized I'd hear from you since you've made complimentary remarks about F9 in past posts and seem to follow them closely. However, don't you find it interesting that F9 has managed to lower their fares since WN's announcement? And that, to me, is the beauty of "The Southwest Affect"...even existing LCC's are forced to lower prices in order to stay competitive.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineUAPremierGuy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3723 times:

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 20):
Sean Donohue of UA, Ted's Godfather, was quoted recently as saying IFE is becoming less important because "most" people bring their own entertainment on board such as I-Pods. Either he spends too much time in his office on Algonquin Blvd or its just a sour grapes response to those carriers who compete with a superior IFE offering, IMO.

I agree with you. Donohue made those comments in response to the new E170 service out of IAD (Ex-Plus) meant to compete with Indy Air. I completely disagree this assertion. There should be IFE on all flights, especially on those cramped RJs.

And to those who pointed it out, the article was incorrect. There is no first class service by Ted or F9 on these routes, however America West does offer first class (albeit not so great) on routes out of DEN to PHX and LAS. But then, they don't have IFE either...so it's a toss-up all around.



It's Time To Fly!
User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

I should have said Channel 9 ~ to listen to your delay on!

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 17):
but I don't think the majority of people really care about channel 9. They'd certainly rather have PTV's.

If Ch. 9 vs. PTV.

Yea, I’d say PTV. But keep in mind many really enjoy Ch. 9 and it is significantly cheaper vs. PTV in each and every seatback.


25 Post contains images Mariner : There is no question that there is a "Southwest Effect" - or has been - in some cities. PHL, for example, or BWI. But - as far as I can remember - th
26 Tornado82 : Gouging Denver passengers, eh? Lately we've had at my work a subcontractor from DEN coming in weekly. The fares he pays are less than what I pay to f
27 Arffguy : Yes, because it depends on when you book, when you fly and how many stops you want to make. I have been telling my friends and family this all along.
28 Post contains images StuckinMAF : Make no mistake, DEN has been a CASH COW for F9, but especially for United for a long time. They'll be looking back at the last few years as "the goo
29 Post contains links LoneStarMike : For anyone wishing to read the entire article (it's interesting and quite lengthy) it was been reprinted on CAA Airport News and can be read for free.
30 Tornado82 : Agreed, and the most level headed post I've seen on this. It was even said once (by Herb maybe) that WN is opening this market at the request and for
31 RedFlyer : This comment was already addressed by another poster but I'll address it again: the operative word is "SECTION". Meaning the typical "Joe" will not s
32 ScottB : Not really. Market average DEN-PHX fares dropped by 12% year-over-year (2001Q2 vs. 2002Q2) and DEN-LAS fares dropped by 4% year-over-year in the same
33 RedFlyer : Good post, ScottB... But this wasn't the best example to use given that OAK has two competing airports; SFO and SJC. Exactly since I fly WN often and
34 Mariner : Sorry, but when AWA adopted the Low Fare Initiative, fares from PHX and LAS to DEN dropped through the floor. They may have been promotional fares, b
35 RedFlyer : I could've sworn I saw a flying pig the other day but my wife says it was just a holiday turkey fleeing the butcher's axe.
36 JayinKitsap : From Seattle, my preferred airlines are Alaska, Frontier, and Southwest. Yes I think Frontier will easily hold their own vs WN, but UA/Ted will be aff
37 ScottB : Sorry, but DOT's fare data simply do not support this statement. AWA's average fare between DEN and LAS increased year-over-year in the quarter follo
38 Mariner : Sorry, again, but I was there. It was a source of considerable consternation to a group of us who had shares in Frontier - especially coming at the t
39 RedFlyer : No, I haven't. But your point is well taken. I think we'll need to revisit this issue in about three or four months time and see where the DEN player
40 Post contains images Tornado82 : It was just an A380 doing tests.
41 CO767FA : WN will draw people based on their instinct to be followers (lemmings), rather than doing their homework. Once they realize that all other factors (pr
42 ScottB : Then you ought to be more precise and state "promotional fares on DEN/PHX and DEN/LAS dropped through the floor." When you don't qualify your stateme
43 Gigneil : Nope. You want to see gouged? Fly to/from COS. N
44 Mariner : I am sorry, but you bought into a debate I was having with RedFlyer about United and Frontier having dropped fares to match Southwest: Please explain
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