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Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'  
User currently offlineJumboJet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6774 times:

Here are some highlights, or lowlights, from yesterday's court hearings between Delta and DALPA.

U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Beatty said. "One can talk about union busting and that is precisely what this kind of motion has the taint of. ..."

"Frankly, I think you have a bias here," she told Gallagher (Delta lawyer). "It's a personal bias against the pilots."

Under questioning from Simon,(DALPA's Lawyer) Bastian (Delta's CFO) also acknowledged that the Atlanta-based carrier does not have a contingency plan in place in case of a strike, which the pilots have threatened if the court throws out their contract"

OK, why not have a contingency plan ready in case of a strike? Why can't they have retired pilots ready to take over? Get them their medicals now and any other training that they may need out of the way and hence, you have a contingency plan. Who is this guy Bastian, and why doesnt he have a contingency plan?

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-11-29-delta-union_x.htm

110 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
OK, why not have a contingency plan ready in case of a strike? Why can't they have retired pilots ready to take over? Get them their medicals now and any other training that they may need out of the way and hence, you have a contingency plan. Who is this guy Bastian, and why doesnt he have a contingency plan?

They have a contingency plan: it is called liquidation.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6527 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6748 times:

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
Why can't they have retired pilots ready to take over? Get them their medicals now and any other training that they may need out of the way and hence, you have a contingency plan.

The FAA requires pilots to retire at 60yrs. How many retired pilots do you think there are under 60 that would be eligible to be hired?


User currently offlineSinlock From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1652 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6696 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 2):
The FAA requires pilots to retire at 60yrs. How many retired pilots do you think there are under 60 that would be eligible to be hired?

Or willing to come back as a short term SCAB. (Not to mention that their pention is likely next to be choped)



My Country can beat up your Country....
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26128 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6674 times:

The judge in this case is turning out to be a true character. I ran across the following paraphrase exerpts of the hearings last week off airline pilot central web site. The banter is betwen the judge and Delta's counsel.



*****************

Upon numerous mentions of pay/benefit levels at other bankrupt airlines:


"I don't care what other airlines have done. No one else's finances
are the same as yours. I don't care what others pay. Delta will pay
what it can afford to pay."

*****************

Upon mention of "management flexibility in small a/c (scope relief)


"Scope relief .... in other words, get rid of Delta pilots. I know
what you want to do."

*****************

Upon mention that certain changes would make the company stronger:

"You spent 2.5 Billion buying back your own stock"

But your honor, that was before Sept 11:

"It was still a real money loser."

******************

The Judge said, "An across the board pay cut (like the one proposed)
is particularly unfair to the lowest paid pilots."

But all the other 44,000 employees took a pay cut .....

(interrupting him) "I don't find that persuasive. All those folks
can move to another job. Pilots cannot. They have one skill set and
are stuck with you."

Not necessarily, your honor.

"Well, you fired 6000 a few years ago and they are not lined up
outside your door are they?"

******************

"I don't understand why Delta is throwing darts at its pilots.
You think they are smaller than you, so you can stomp them."

*****************
Upon yet another mention of other airline pay, and of a DL witness who
will testify that, based upon market economics, many other professions
should be paid more than pilots (optometrists, pharmacists, judges,
lawyers)

"You keep telling me about other airlines and other pay. Your expert's
list is meaningless to me."

******************

Gallagher attempts to read excerpt from Duane Woerth spring speech to
show that ALPA is unnecessarily militant and coordinated in fighting
management.

(interrupting him) "So what? You carry a big stick. Let them carry
a big stick. Besides, I don't even know that DL pilots listened to that
letter."

*****************

The judge repeatedly brought up, and would not let go of, the fact that
DL included 6 or so "non-negotiable" items that must be in any final
agreement. These included relief in scope, code share restrictions,
minimum block hours, etc. She first asked where the dollar value of
such items was to be found.

Your honor, these are not cost issues, they are intended to strengthen
our company. They can't be quantified.

"(shouting) Don't tell me these aren't economic items. You better
figure out how to quantify them. This is $ that will come from the pilots'
side of the ledger. "

"If you code share on AF from JFK to Paris, that is taking money
out of DL pilots' pockets."

"If you reduce required minimum block hours, you are taking money
from DL pilots."

"If you remove restrictions on small jets, you are taking money
from DL pilots. Why can't DL pilots fly these 79 seat jets? "

Your honor, that would not be economically feasible in view of their
benefits package.

(shouting him down) "You see? Its money. These are certainly economic
issues."

Jack makes one last attempt to make his point: your honor, these items
are to strengthen the company, and the pilots will have more security
in a stronger company.

"Don't tell me this is to strengthen DL. A stronger DL means DL
gets more money .... and the pilots will get credit for that."

**************
As part of the discussion of these items, the judge did suggest that
one could be non-economic .... the "poison pill" clause in the PWA that
gives ALPA the right to extend or take a pay raise in the event of a
change in control. Attorney explained that an issuance of new stock
upon emergence from Chapt 11 could equate to a change in control and
trigger this provision.

The judge suggests that the parties simply add language exempting such
stock issuance from the items that might trigger the clause, as UsAirways
did. Then you could leave the rest of the language alone.

Your honor, that is a fine suggestion and certainly something that Delta
is willing to consider in negotiations.

Whereupon, the ALPA lead attorney, Bruce Simon, stood and announced,
"Your honor, ALPA has recently made that exact proposal and it has been
rejected by the company".

Much shuffling of feet on the Delta side of the room.

**************

DL attorney led CFO Bastian through recitation of finances to illustrate
how desperately DL needed the full $335M from the pilots. Bastian maintained
that ALPA's analysis that DL had not yet taken full advantage of the
Letter 46 was flawed .... because "the airline is smaller now, and we
cannot save all that was intended in that section of Letter 46.

"They gave you the money. Its not the pilots' fault that DL just
didn't spend it. The pilots will get credit for that money."

**************

Finally, the last note made prior to recess:

Your honor, DL must have the total amount we are seeking ....

"Well, I am not at all sure such an amount is appropriate in light
of the billion dollars the pilots have already given you."



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJeff G From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 442 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6662 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 2):
How many retired pilots do you think there are under 60 that would be eligible to be hired?

More importantly, how many qualified pilots (retired or not) do you think there are who are willing to cross a picket line en masse to keep the airline operating? Even if they were out there, you'd have to train them, thousands of them, tens of thousands of dollars apiece, and have them waiting in the wings to take over in case the Delta pilots strike. Leaving aside the fact that they'd be marked for life just for training as scabs, they couldn't be guaranteed jobs unless the pilots struck. And then they would still expect to be paid to wait around. How much would that cost Delta? Care to justify that in bankruptcy?


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6598 times:

Sounds like this judge is going to bring DL down. She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union. Which is not to say she should be a lap dog and anti-union. Just unbiased.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4971 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6556 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Sounds like this judge is going to bring DL down. She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union. Which is not to say she should be a lap dog and anti-union. Just unbiased.

I think she's bending over backwards to be tough on DL right now because she had been accused by the DALPA lawyers before the start of the hearing of being biased against the pilots ("...what's even weirder is someone agreeing to pay them (the pilots) this much..." was her comment); the DALPA lawyers had asked her to recuse herself from the case because of this perceived bias...so now she's going to the other extreme....in any case, she certainly comes across as a wacko ("Do you serve peanuts? I really think you shouldn't...my daughter is allergic to them...")

At least the $605 million non-pilot cost cuts are already in place (as of Nov1) and jet fuel price has been hovering at around $1.75 a gallon, which is below DL's projection of $2.01 a gallon for the rest of 2005.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13736 posts, RR: 61
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6545 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union. Which is not to say she should be a lap dog and anti-union. Just unbiased.

It sounds more like she's irritated by a company attempting to use legal maneuvering via Chapter 11 to circumvent the process of negotiating with your unionized employees.

In short, she's pissed that DL is trying to be cute and take the quick easy way out rather than working with the pilots.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6521 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Sounds like this judge is going to bring DL down. She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union. Which is not to say she should be a lap dog and anti-union. Just unbiased.

Agreed. If I were Gerald Grinstein, I'd be asking that Judge Beatty be thrown out of this case with cause (I forget the actual term), as it is fairly obvious that she has bias that is clouding her judgement.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6509 times:

These quotes are nuts.... shocking! It seems the judge wants union glory to trump the future of Delta.

Management by consensus is a crazy idea. Even Buddhist monks don't do that. At DL, the boss's job is to protect the investors. THAT is why Delta bought its own stock back. To help i n v e s t o r s who sunk their money INTO Delta rather than sucking money OUT they way DL pilots did for years and years.

I would feel more sorry for 99% of the world's people than the Delta pilots, who have gotten quite rich over the years thanks to union power. In fact, they may be the world's richest union members. Why cry for them?

If investors want to buy back 2.5 billion in stock and sink the company, it is their right to do so because -- oh gee -- they OWN the joint. This judge needs to come to America and leave 1950s Russia behind.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6503 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union.

That goes down as the biggest understatement on A.net.


User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6496 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 9):
Agreed. If I were Gerald Grinstein, I'd be asking that Judge Beatty be thrown out of this case with cause (I forget the actual term), as it is fairly obvious that she has bias that is clouding her judgement.

Funny...ALPA made the same motion because they felt she was biased towards the company a few weeks ago.


User currently offlineJumboJet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6489 times:

Admittingly, I dont know nearly enough about the industry as most of you out there, but, if NW can put together a plan regarding the MX issue, and make it work, why not Delta with their pilot issue? Their CFO, Bastian, they give the impression that they aren't even trying to put together a plan. Surely, there has to be something, anything that DL can fall back on in case of a pilot strike.

Also, jet fuel has gone down 4 cents since Katrina. dALPA arues that that means there is already roughly a 100M a year savings.


User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6479 times:

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 10):
These quotes are nuts.... shocking! It seems the judge wants union glory to trump the future of Delta.

You all are missing the anti-pilots comments she made some weeks back. At one point she looked at some pilots in the audience and said "the only people in this courtroom that are overpaid are me and those pilots."


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6470 times:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 12):
ALPA made the same motion because they felt she was biased towards the company a few weeks ago.

Because they misread that "I can't believe that they would pay the pilots that much!" as "I can't believe the pilots are being paid that much..." She was not bashing the pilots for being paid that much, after all, they work to make money. She was, however, blasting management for paying them every last dollar the pilots demanded.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4971 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6436 times:
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Quoting JumboJet (Reply 13):
Surely, there has to be something, anything that DL can fall back on in case of a pilot strike.

The way things are going, she will probably order the parties back to the negotiating table so the chances of a strike would be slim..,.thank goodness.

Quoting JumboJet (Reply 13):
Also, jet fuel has gone down 4 cents since Katrina. dALPA arues that that means there is already roughly a 100M a year savings.

Actually, jet fuel has gone down significantly since Katrina (from a peak of about $2.40 a gallon to the current $1.76 or so). DL's plan projects that fuel will be at $2.01 a gallon for the rest of 2005 (so they are 'ahead' of plan there on the fuel front currently) and fall to $1.73 a gallon in 2006 and 2007. DALPA's comparison of the 4 cent drop concerns the 2006 projections (DL projects $1.73 whereas 'experts' predict $1.69).

But if DL followed the same course as what DALPA is suggesting (i.e., no need for at least $100 m of savings because fuel has dropped $0.04), they will be in trouble again and be accused by the pilots and others of not planning properly if fuel goes back up again next year! You know the same arguments will appear...."They told us that was the last time they would ask for concessions...." or "Management didn't do its job right, how could they possibly have planned for such unrealistic low fuel prices?"


User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6429 times:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 14):



Quoting Positiverate (Reply 14):
You all are missing the anti-pilots comments she made some weeks back. At one point she looked at some pilots in the audience and said "the only people in this courtroom that are overpaid are me and those pilots."

Hahahaha.... good stuff.

Maybe there is more to this judge than meets the eye.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6729 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6419 times:

Quoting JumboJet (Reply 13):
Their CFO, Bastian, they give the impression that they aren't even trying to put together a plan. Surely, there has to be something, anything that DL can fall back on in case of a pilot strike.

Replacing pilots is far more complex than replacing mechanics. At most DL might be able to round up and train 1,000 to 2,000 pilots, but that's not nearly enough to make DL run. Not to mention that spending money on hiring scabs would certainly not be considered good-faith bargaining with DALPA. In fact, I would venture that if DL tried to pull a stunt like NW that DALPA would become even more difficult and concessions would be even harder to obtain.

Some of DL's demands are certainly bordering on union-busting. And you have to admit that it is pretty pathetic that DL managment CAN NOT and WILL NOT quantify the financial gains of having more 79 seaters at DCI. It's also a little odd that the only major union is being asked to take cuts that will carry them to the JetBlue level, while most of the non-union employees are above the JetBlue levels.


User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6418 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 15):
Because they misread that "I can't believe that they would pay the pilots that much!" as "I can't believe the pilots are being paid that much..." She was not bashing the pilots for being paid that much, after all, they work to make money. She was, however, blasting management for paying them every last dollar the pilots demanded.

Still, they made the motion and never retracted it as far as I know.

Delta Bankruptcy Judge Denies Bias
November 16, 2005
The judge overseeing Delta Air Lines' bankruptcy case on Wednesday rejected a request by the union representing its pilots that she disqualify herself from ruling on their salaries.

US Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Beatty said that any negative comments she had made in past hearings about pilot pay had referred only to lump sum payments under their pension plan and not their regular salaries.

"I do not believe that I have a bias against the pilots," she said. "I believe that what I have done is attempt to learn more about how the system works."

She also denied suggesting in previous hearings that any of the airline's pilots were drunk or that the amount of their regular pay was "weird."

The motion to remove the judge came at the beginning of a hearing at which the judge was due to rule on Delta's request that she clear its plan to cut their salaries by about a fifth.

"When the court asks to know just how rich pilots can get, her impartiality can be questioned," Bruce Simon, a lawyer for the union said earlier, citing comments she had made about pilots' pay as well as talk about the pilots at hearings where their lawyers were not present.

(Reuters)


Also, another great story about her unpredictability: http://biz.yahoo.com/law/051010/c6f1...f1927a30e9bcc6549d8a3e.html?.v%3D1


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6408 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
The judge in this case is turning out to be a true character. I ran across the following paraphrase exerpts of the hearings last week off airline pilot central web site. The banter is betwen the judge and Delta's counsel.

And it sounds like Delta's counsel, in true legacy airline character, is reacting like the proverbial deer caught in the headlights when someone, a judge no less, finally stands up to their flashy but totally empty rhetoric and challenges their strawman arguments. It's about time that legacy airlines assuming they can sweep the consequences of years of management blunders (most of which, BTW, predate 9/11/01) under the proverbial rug by raping labor, with complicity of bankruptcy judges, find themselves having to give more substantive answers than the "just because we say so" responses Delta's counsel appears to think they could get away with, ala UA, US and NW. The more they (DL and their legacy airline cohorts) are forced to give subtantive, truthful answers to the issue of what ails them, the more the real causes of their malaise will be exposed, more than 90% of which emanate from the executive suites.


User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6408 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 16):
The way things are going, she will probably order the parties back to the negotiating table so the chances of a strike would be slim..,.thank goodness.

Well, how many times is this going to happen? Delta is only bleeding roughly 5M a day. Something has to give sooner or later.

Bastian, who is the CFO for Delta, says that he believes there is still the chance that an out of court settlement can be reached. I would bet my money on this. If there was absolutely no chance of this happening, then I think Bastian would say so.


User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6388 times:

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 17):
Hahahaha.... good stuff.

Maybe there is more to this judge than meets the eye.

She's a handfull. Among some other things she said:

*She called Delta's pilots pay "hideously high." She said the only "good thing" about pilots is they must retire at 60.

*During testimony about Delta's high fuel costs, she suggested putting "solar panels on the tops of jets" to generate power.

*She asked Bastian if Delta serves peanuts, bevause her duaghter is allergic.

*When DL's lawyers were describing new airline technology that could reduce staffing, she started in on the check-in kiosks. "They print out your little piece of paper and you try not to crumble it up because the piece of paper is pretty thin. You never have to stand in line and wait for some lady behind the counter who doesn't know what she's doing to look at your ticket."


User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6378 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 20):
And it sounds like Delta's counsel, in true legacy airline character, is reacting like the proverbial deer caught in the headlights when someone, a judge no less, finally stands up to their flashy but totally empty rhetoric and challenges their strawman arguments. It's about time that legacy airlines assuming they can sweep the consequences of years of management blunders (most of which, BTW, predate 9/11/01) under the proverbial rug by raping labor, with complicity of bankruptcy judges, find themselves having to give more substantive answers than the "just because we say so" responses Delta's counsel appears to think they could get away with, ala UA, US and NW. The more they (DL and their legacy airline cohorts) are forced to give subtantive, truthful answers to the issue of what ails them, the more the real causes of their malaise will be exposed, more than 90% of which emanate from the executive suites.

Wow...bitter?


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6347 times:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 22):
*She called Delta's pilots pay "hideously high." She said the only "good thing" about pilots is they must retire at 60.

 roll 

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 22):
*During testimony about Delta's high fuel costs, she suggested putting "solar panels on the tops of jets" to generate power.

I thought judges were educated people?

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 22):
*She asked Bastian if Delta serves peanuts, bevause her duaghter is allergic.

Big deal, just because her daughter is alergic so what. Does that mean if DL gets rid of peanuts, she'll rule in their favor? I think peanuts suck, but im not not gonna fly DL just beacause of that.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 22):
*When DL's lawyers were describing new airline technology that could reduce staffing, she started in on the check-in kiosks. "They print out your little piece of paper and you try not to crumble it up because the piece of paper is pretty thin. You never have to stand in line and wait for some lady behind the counter who doesn't know what she's doing to look at your ticket."

Ya? No kidding.... yes a peice of paper with your BOARDING PASS is such a delicate peice of paper that god forbid, the walk between check in and security, whats that 100 ft, at best?, you loose it. And im sure DL mgmt appreciates the discription of their hard working csa's....

This woman is a brainless fool. Get her off the bench, NOW!



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
25 Jumbojet : Somehow I was coming to that conclusion myself. Seems that she has to much of he own opinions to voice rather then try and do her real job.
26 Lemurs : I am truly amused. The best judges in this country refuse to be double-talked into giving up on the facts. Her calling out Delta for trying to claim t
27 Commavia : I agree with you. While I am not suggesting that it will impact her ultimate rulings on key, sensitive issues, I do think that this new slant against
28 HunUtazo : ....you're looking at the future, after this administration is out.
29 Slider : Based on these excerpts, I'd push to get her bumped off this case. She is not the star of the show- her personality, non sequiturs and snide comments
30 Post contains images Revelation : I re-read her quotes and while she is colorful, she also is asking very good questions. What really matters is that she understands the law and appli
31 CLEfan : One thing Judges tend to do during oral arguments is to question and attack the attorney's position. The judge trys to get past the facade of what the
32 Lemurs : Oh, and if you think she's just being crazy, sit down with your average Supreme Court transcripts. These are some of the brightest people in this coun
33 Phollingsworth : Spot market prices for the US Gulf Coast region, which ATL and a lot of DL purchases fall into, peaked at $3.13 on Oct 5. As of Nov 22 they were down
34 LongbowPilot : I"m tired of all these "lets bash delta threads." you all got anything else to do in life? Pick on Southwest or something. Sheesh.
35 OttoPylit : Ah yes, ignorance rears its ugly head again. Please show me how the non-union employees are paid above Jetblue level? I'm dying to see this. Please p
36 MD88Captain : The post-retirement pilots are only in a few categories and are in their last month of flying. The agreement is over on 1 Jan. The number of these guy
37 M404 : I wonder if this Judge's comments will affect how NW approachs theirs when they try to make the same points in the IAM contracts. For that matter, I'd
38 Kahala777 : Some of the people on this forum never cease to amaze. Many on this forum are mad when the judges say to little. Many on this forum are mad when judge
39 Simpilicity : It's not rocket science ... unions get out of the way. Only chance DL has is to cut fleet/wages/staff numbers DRAMATICALLY, like cuut all by 50% & hol
40 Post contains images DeltaGuy : I see where this thread is going, just another big old Bash Delta Pilot's affair..but I was quite amused to see how much crap the judge isn't putting
41 Tornado82 : Nice Office Space quote usage there... but then if the Pilots do start singing that to the company... the company could easily pull the plug on their
42 Scotron11 : Of her saying she found it weird that DL agreed to pay their pilots so much in the first place, I find it quite funny. And she was basically saying "
43 NASBWI : Simple human nature, Kahala - in a simple cliche: You can't please everyone.
44 Jumbojet : hopefully not before my LGA - SXM flight on Dec 10.
45 Jumbojet : The latest from today's court hearings from the Atlanta business chronical. U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Carter Beatty will allow bankrupt Delta Air
46 Jetdeltamsy : How ridicilous. You can't just replace striking pilots. Most of the retired pilots are restricted due to their age. The ones that are still young eno
47 Positiverate : And that's why it's a forum, so people can express their views. It would be boring if everyone thought the same way.
48 Jumbojet : Yes, it may sound ridicoulus to you but I have to admit, I lack basic understanding of situations like this as it relates to the airline industry. It
49 Amy : True, however there is a larger than normal proportion of attack on this forum. A.netters love to think they know better than the pros. Some of the t
50 CVG2LGA : I dont think she will "bring DL down" but she does *seem* pro union in *these* excerpts, but i think it will be interesting and DL will come out stro
51 Msett1 : Truthfully guys, who here thinks delta will pull through and survive? I am just wondering. Delta is who I pretty much always fly and my dad is delta g
52 Post contains images DeltaGuy : I could see the 762's, 732's, but 120's? I thought ASA had jettisoned them a long time ago (saw a few flying for Gulfstream Intl). Congrats, you're t
53 Jumbojet : Is it not true that for Delta to survive and tp compete with other Legacies and LCC's that they will need a pilot pay scale that is consistent with t
54 Scotron11 : Once again, missing the point completely I appreciate where you are coming from. But I have to think that when a bankruptcy judge asks "What were you
55 Post contains images Indy : Thats the reality of bankruptcy. But after reading the quotes I'd have to say this judge is either a pitbull or a former family court judge. Somethin
56 MD88Captain : This has not gone the way the DAL management thought it would. They did not roll over the judge and they have not rolled over DALPA. They have run ful
57 Dougloid : Rehnquist is not reducing people to rubble any more, but you're right. In oral arguments you're put on the hot seat and tested to see if you know wha
58 Bucky707 : Nothing at all wrong with being in line. But what the company is asking would put the Delta pilots well below Airtran, Southwest, Jetblue, Frontier a
59 MD88Captain : Well said Bucky. It is not about the paycut that is coming. It is about the attempted decimation of our contract through the court system by a vindict
60 Bobnwa : Are you willing to have the same work rules and other non pay issues as the LCC's if you want to earn as much as them?
61 Panamair : Yes, especially the decision to give the pilots an industry-leading contract ("United+1")...
62 Panamair : Actually, the Company is presenting its view of the situation; I thought it wasn't overtly critical and nowhere does it say that DL mgmt is "right" o
63 Positiverate : The sentence dealing with "potential opportunities"? Yeah, it would be terrible if Delta was put in a position after bankruptcy where it could be the
64 Post contains images OttoPylit : You sure about that? LOL I agree, DL and ALPA have always gotten along together for the most part....until 7.5, that is. It seemed after the pilots h
65 MD88Captain : In the BK transcript the DAL lawyers make the case that the non-union employee's pension is at stake and the pilot's have to give the company everythi
66 TL8490 : With this attitude the pilots should walk around the airport with crowns on since they feel they are so much better than everyone else at the company
67 MD88Captain : I'm only saying thet the BK judge finally said what should have been obvious. All employees but the pilots have chosen not to be represented. That put
68 Bucky707 : First of all, I did not say you were paid more than JetBlue. I never mentioned JetBlue. I said some employee groups are paid equal too or more than L
69 Bucky707 : Yes.
70 TL8490 : Since when did not being part of a union mean no rights????? Unions are collapsing in almost every industry because unions want executive power witho
71 OttoPylit : You are amazing, really. The non-contract folks have chosen not to be represented and were paid well by the company for that. The pilots did decide t
72 Bucky707 : don't see how that proves your point. They want to take the pilots to about 10-20% less than Airtran or Jetblue, but the FAs are pretty much on par w
73 MD88Captain : Bucky, it of course doesn't prove his point. He just can't help himself because of his hate and self-loathing. He just needs to kill another Bud - I m
74 Bucky707 : Iron City beer used to do it for me in college
75 MD88Captain : Iron City is still a very manly beer. Unfortunately for me I have been to Frankfort to many times. Not KY.
76 ASFlyer : I'm glad this judge is finally taking a stand against airline management that thinks it's acceptable to run their airlines into the ground with their
77 Tornado82 : Sound like some fellow (former?) Pittsburghers in the house. Are yinz pumpin an Arn City, while rooting for dem Stillers n 'at
78 Bucky707 : actually, not from PIT....went to Penn State though.
79 Jumbojet : OK, a new day in the Delta saga, lets see what happens today. Hopefully good news.
80 Cadet57 : As I've read, the folks here dont think this judge is "brainless", OK fine, but let me just say this, as I was told an occasional joke is fine, OK won
81 OttoPylit : Ah yes, since you can come up with nothing to respond to my post, you will instead list me as a hater and self-loathing. Desperation is a smelly sten
82 MD88Captain : From sorting through the recent BK transcripts, it appears that this judge sees the only stakeholders in DAL as those entities with contracts. No cont
83 Tornado82 : With the amount DL pilots currently make... if they don't have a substantial nestegg in the bank already from years of that income, it's their own fa
84 Bucky707 : hmm, I believe I said you were paid equal too or more than the LCCs. In the case of the FAs that you present, the Delta chart shows JB FAs at 2976 a
85 Bucky707 : I would agree with that.
86 TL8490 : Bucky 707 --- I have to ask you a question since you seem to know what is going on from the pilot side..... Has the total cost savings estimated in th
87 Tornado82 : Likewise to be said for degreed meteorologists, and loads of other college-degreed fields within their first 5 years. There were not any (well, shoul
88 Msett1 : Wow, lots to read here and I dont follow all. So no offical court order has been decided yet? Are chances lately looking better or worse for delta? Sh
89 Post contains links KELPkid : Another quote on Judge Judy, err, judge Beatty: "She also said the only 'good thing' about pilots is they must retire at age 60." Source: http://www.
90 Bobnwa : Does this mean equal in all regards, ie: pensions, medical, dental, scope clause, work rules, as JB and AT. I don't think the DL pilots would accept
91 EA CO AS : And I'm sure that as a result, within one year you'll see all of DL's non-contract workers holding union certification votes to prevent this from occ
92 MD88Captain : They might unionize, but to what avail? The horse is out of the barn and was last seen cresting the hill. This workforce has consistently rejected uni
93 TL8490 : Anyone who thinks they are underpaid should do that ...including the pilots... But none of the pilots seem to want to answer the question....All of yo
94 EA CO AS : True, but I'm sure that just after the 32% cut the pilot group collectively thought, "We gave $1B in concessions - they'll NEVER want or need to come
95 Phollingsworth : The only thing the judge is looking out for is the law. Which says that she needs to make here decision on what will ultimately maximize the return f
96 Lono : Excellent post..... very well put.... The true issue here.... DL people must really think this out.... with their check books.... not their hearts
97 Bucky707 : actually I think you would be surprised. Compared to what Delta wants, the work rules at JB or AT are better. And scope......neither JB or AT outsour
98 Bucky707 : there are no work rules preventing the company from getting the full amount. At the time the company figured they needed 325 mil from the pilots, the
99 MD88Captain : I would guess that the company still doesn't know the total effect of the work rule changes. This company has ALWAYS been a reactive company. Never ha
100 TL8490 : Well if that is accurate then why are the pilots not talking about it as a $500 million dollar cut instead and hanging their hat on the idea that the
101 ContnlEliteCMH : Maybe she's incompetent. It's a plausible explanation for *apparent* waffling. I say "apparent" because I have only the snippets in this thread. But
102 Post contains images OttoPylit : Painting with a pretty broad brush there, aren't you? Who is to say that by the end, the judge won't throw everything out the window. You will then,
103 OttoPylit : Ok, this is simple. DL can drop those overly large 767's and 757's and fly only 717's to make a trip like ATL-MDW or CVG-BTV not such a loss. However
104 Bucky707 : Pay cut??? Are you kidding. If Delta wants to buy all 717s and pay us the same rate as Airtran, that would be pay raise for all but the 764 and 777 p
105 Post contains links Bucky707 : Yes isn't that convienient that the pilots are not included. Other than taking my word for it, the only source for pilot pay scales you get find on t
106 OttoPylit : That shows current pay scales. I'm (of course) looking for the pro-posed pay scales. After all, if you want me to side with you, thats what I need to
107 MD88Captain : Anyone having trouble with the simple math can take the current payrates and subtract 19.5%.
108 Tornado82 : What you have, are getting, or whatever is different than what you NEED. There are jobs where you NEED that degree to be employed that are making com
109 OttoPylit : Oh no, I just thought you were saying that anyone workig a CSA job shouldn't have a degree to do so. My bad. Well, to be honest, math and I don't agr
110 TL8490 : RECAP.. The $1B cut really was not a $1B cut and cannot be measured ...its probably time the pilots stop talking like they gave a Billion..that is not
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