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CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'  
User currently offlineFokker70NG From Netherlands, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3351 times:

According to this article: http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=11332 (sorry, in Dutch), the International Bureau of Aviation (IBA) said in a report the decision of the Dutch Aviation Authorities (IVW) to ban Onur Air last summer was unfair.

Summary of the article:
The IBA investigated the ban and said there were no maintenance issues, one of the claims of IVW the ban was based on. The 'serious incidents' that were the immediate reason to ban 8Q, weren't that serious at all, according to the IBA.
The IBA also said that banning the airline as a whole wasn't legitimate, instead IVW should have banned only the particular plane(s). IVW states in a response that the maintenance issues were not the real reason, but Onur's 'careless' management was the real reason to place the ban.
Onur Air's CEO, Mr. Bagana, now claims that Dutch competition (I guess he means HV and MP, Onur's direct competitors) forced Dutch Authorities to ban Onur Air.


In fact KLM's subsidiaries HV and MP did profit from the 8Q ban, and KLM has a lot of influence with the authorities. I'm not saying Mr. Bagana is right, but there is a possibility that KLM pushed IVW to place the ban, after rumours about a possible ban were going on for a long time. Still it's a very serious accusation!

By the way, if this has been posted before, please excuse me. I didn't found a thread on this subject however.


Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3324 times:

Onur's market overlap is limited with Transavia (package deals)/ Martinair (Freight, further distinations).

KLM is not involved in competative policy of these leisure carriers, they're doing perfectly themselves.

KLM doesn't comment / advise on service aspects of other operators.

Seems Onur is looking for an underdog position & distracting blame from its own problems.

The "underdog" positioning is typical for low costs & start ups.

Distracting attention / blaming others for its own problem is more serious. They better put energy in solving those problems IMO.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10734 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3307 times:

Maybe Dutch carriers influenced it, but that Onur Air, like other "cheap" Turkish charter carriers, has more safety problems than can easily be overseen, is beyond doubt. Last week there was a program about MNG and a row of trouble with their airplanes in German TV, again an airline I hardly would like to fly with. Second-or thirdhand 25 year old first generation A300s in the hands of cheap charter carriers never sounded convincing to me.

I agree though that rather than banning (and possibly bankcrupting) a whole airline it would be better to ban certain airplanes which prove to fail regularly. Onur for example has a diverse fleet, some crappy old ones as well as newer ones. And its almost always the badly maintained old ones that make the trouble.


User currently offlineFokker70NG From Netherlands, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3289 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Onur's market overlap is limited with Transavia (package deals)/ Martinair (Freight, further distinations).

KLM is not involved in competative policy of these leisure carriers, they're doing perfectly themselves.

No, but HV is a fully subsidiary of KLM and they have a 50% share in MP. So KLM is involved in this market, although not with their own brand.

Quoting NA (Reply 2):
I agree though that rather than banning (and possibly bankcrupting) a whole airline it would be better to ban certain airplanes which prove to fail regularly. Onur for example has a diverse fleet, some crappy old ones as well as newer ones. And its almost always the badly maintained old ones that make the trouble.

Exactly, their A300's and MD-80's seem to be a bit crappy, but their A321 fleet are rather well maintained I believe. They even got an award from Airbus last summer, for excellent maintenace on their A321's I believe.



Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 3):
They even got an award from Airbus last summer, for excellent maintenace on their A321's I believe.

Didn't an overhead panel on an Onur A321 fall onto a pax's head while taxiing for take-off. The F/A ran to the cockpit but the pilots kept on taxiing and it was business as usual.
Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks
Dominic



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

Quoting Fokker70NG (Thread starter):
I guess he means HV and MP, Onur's direct competitors) forced Dutch Authorities to ban Onur Air.

Instead blaming the competition he should make sure his airline doesn't get another ban in the future. Who would be blame after a second "Birgenair"-like accident?

Quoting Fokker70NG (Thread starter):
Still it's a very serious accusation!

Indeed.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 3):
Exactly, their A300's and MD-80's seem to be a bit crappy, but their A321 fleet are rather well maintained I believe. They even got an award from Airbus last summer, for excellent maintenace on their A321's I believe.

It doesn't matter when only certain types are maintained well, the whole fleet should be in perfectly safe condition. It's absolutely useless for passengers to to know about awards for certain types when they swap one type for another prior to a flight.


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting NA (Reply 2):
Maybe Dutch carriers influenced it, but that Onur Air, like other "cheap" Turkish charter carriers,

Excuse me! Would you name the other "cheap" carriers from Turkey? I would like to compare the fleet age(seems like thats the only factor you use for safety) of Onur air with other charter carriers.



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineFokker70NG From Netherlands, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3231 times:

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 5):
Instead blaming the competition he should make sure his airline doesn't get another ban in the future. Who would be blame after a second "Birgenair"-like accident?

These statements of Mr. Bagana won't improve their relationship with the Dutch Aviation Authorities I think. So it's quite stupid, even if there's a little bit of truth in what he says, although that is doubtful.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 5):
It doesn't matter when only certain types are maintained well, the whole fleet should be in perfectly safe condition. It's absolutely useless for passengers to to know about awards for certain types when they swap one type for another prior to a flight.

You're totally right, but IVW could have banned the A300's and MD-80's only. According to the IBA, banning a whole airline isn't legitimate, and the reasons IVW had at the time to ban Onur also weren't valid. Don't ask me why, I'm only quoting the article.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 6):
Excuse me! Would you name the other "cheap" carriers from Turkey? I would like to compare the fleet age(seems like thats the only factor you use for safety) of Onur air with other charter carriers.

Other 'cheap' Turkish carriers include Fly Air and MNG Airlines.



Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3229 times:

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 6):
Excuse me! Would you name the other "cheap" carriers from Turkey? I would like to compare the fleet age(seems like thats the only factor you use for safety) of Onur air with other charter carriers.

He refers to the older fleet members specifically. Onur's A300Bs reach an average age of 25.5 years.


Average fleet age (years):

AtlasJet: 8.3
Fly Air: 19.6
Freebird: 13.7
Inter Als: 9.4
KTHY: 7,1
MNG Pax: 19.2
Onur Air: 12.6
Pegasus: 5.6
Sky Als: 12.0
World Focus: 11.0



Regards,
JM


User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

Quoting Fokker70NG (Thread starter):
the decision of the Dutch Aviation Authorities (IVW) to ban Onur Air

Why's he only blaming Dutch authorities? As far as I remember the ban was almost European-wide. Or is he also protesting in the other countries?



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 7):
You're totally right, but IVW could have banned the A300's and MD-80's only. According to the IBA, banning a whole airline isn't legitimate, and the reasons IVW had at the time to ban Onur also weren't valid. Don't ask me why, I'm only quoting the article.

If an airline doesn't take care of certain types, then there's always a chance other types could be affected as well. An award from a manufacturer is not a guarantee forever. Better safe than sorry.


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3198 times:

Average fleeet-age No. aircraft

AirTran 15.21 63
Alaska 9.37 103
Aloha 13.76 23
America West 10.29 141
American 10.46 836
ATA 8.16 61
Continental 7.35 379
Delta 11.22 594
JetBlue 1.73 26
Midwest 26.83 36
Northwest 20.19 431
Southwest 9.23 370
United 8.76 561
USAirways 11.42 241

Just to put things in perspective -fleet-age is not a direct indicator of safe or unsafe operation.This is true for all airlines worldwide -even for all turkish airlines.....



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineBahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1787 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
Average fleeet-age No. aircraft

AirTran 15.21 63
Alaska 9.37 103
Aloha 13.76 23
America West 10.29 141
American 10.46 836
ATA 8.16 61
Continental 7.35 379
Delta 11.22 594
JetBlue 1.73 26
Midwest 26.83 36
Northwest 20.19 431
Southwest 9.23 370
United 8.76 561
USAirways 11.42 241

I think this list is a bit old. AirTran has average age of 15 years? They have 717s and 73Gs only.

Just to put things in perspective -fleet-age is not a direct indicator of safe or unsafe operation.This is true for all airlines worldwide -even for all turkish airlines.....

I agree with this completely. If an airliner is in bad shape , she is in bad shape. Despite the hours/years/cycles behind her.



Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineFraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Can somebody explain me what the IBA is. I havn't heard of them so far. Where are they located, is it a private or a government organisation?
Please help!


User currently offlineFokker70NG From Netherlands, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3114 times:

Quoting FraT (Reply 13):
Can somebody explain me what the IBA is. I havn't heard of them so far. Where are they located, is it a private or a government organisation?
Please help!

Quote from their website:
"We aim to minimise the risk and maximise the opportunity for our clients using our knowledge and experience in both the technical and commercial aspects of the industry. We are also very proud to remain one of the few consulting companies who are completely independent from any financial institution, leasing company, manufacturer or supplier."
(www.ibagroup.com)
I believe they're a private organisation. They're based in England.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):
If an airline doesn't take care of certain types, then there's always a chance other types could be affected as well. An award from a manufacturer is not a guarantee forever. Better safe than sorry.

You're right again, but on the other hand, an award from a manufacturer must say something. And they got the award at the same time they got banned from The Netherlands and various other EU countries.

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 9):

Why's he only blaming Dutch authorities? As far as I remember the ban was almost European-wide. Or is he also protesting in the other countries?

The ban became almost European-wide after Dutch authorities placed the ban. Some people believe that other countries just took over the ban, thinking that Dutch authorities would have a good reason to ban 8Q. I don't know if that's true.

[Edited 2005-11-29 20:44:38]


Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8541 posts, RR: 54
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3091 times:
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Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
Average fleeet-age No. aircraft

AirTran 15.21 63

-What, with all those new 717 & 73G's?!, something must be wrong here.......



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineEmrecan From Turkey, joined Feb 2000, 940 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

When I told regarding this unfair decision, some friends tried to blame me for conspiracy theories. I want to hear their oppinions about IBA`s decision !!!

User currently offlineEmrecan From Turkey, joined Feb 2000, 940 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3051 times:

When I told regarding this unfair decision, some friends tried to blame me for conspiracy theories. I want to hear their oppinions about IBA`s decision !!!

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

I think dutch authorities don´t do a ban easily.

I think they are allergic towards not correcting flaws after repeated warnings.


User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3587 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

Well, I cannot comment on whether this ban had justification or not. But the Netherlands and Germany are no "banana" republics. We don't ban airlines just to get advantages for our own carriers, as this would lead to huge compensation claims before the courts if it can be proven.

However, if it was true this would have to be taken very seriously.

But i doubt that. I think accepting criticism is vital for a good safety culture. So after Onur was banned, instead of looking back they should look forward and cosequently listen to all justified critics.

For example, some years ago serious maintenance problems were found at LTU, a German charter airline (in 1996, I guess). The airline reacted at once and took all steps in order to eradicate all doubts.

However, Onur just plays the "we are innocent" card. This bears some resemblance to the events that took place during the soccer game against Switzerland. Instead of admitting problems and irregularities, only others are blamed.

I personally think it is good Onur air was banned. I believe the authorities. Nevertheless courts should take a look, and I guess Onur Air has taken all legal measures to bring the incident before the courts.

Michael


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4695 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3007 times:

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 14):
Quote from their website:
"We aim to minimise the risk and maximise the opportunity for our clients using our knowledge and experience in both the technical and commercial aspects of the industry. We are also very proud to remain one of the few consulting companies who are completely independent from any financial institution, leasing company, manufacturer or supplier."
(www.ibagroup.com)
I believe they're a private organisation. They're based in England.

in other words, we are paid by the customer, and if they hear what they want to hear they will return in the future...... REALLLY creditable source.....



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 19):
But the Netherlands and Germany are no "banana" republics.

I'm not sure about the Netherlands, the way things are going in the politics the last couple of years... but that's a different subject.  Wink

If this turns out to be an illegal ban, I wonder what the consequenses will be. Will the government be forced to pay damages to 8Q? I wonder what court will decide that, since Turkey is not a member of the EU, and the IVW is a government institution. I fear this is a fruitless battle for 8Q, even if they turn out to be right.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineFokker70NG From Netherlands, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

Quoting JRadier (Reply 20):

in other words, we are paid by the customer, and if they hear what they want to hear they will return in the future...... REALLLY creditable source.....

Have you read the report? I didn't, and although IBA must be somewhat biased I tend to believe that there should be some truth in their report, because if they just say what Onur Air wants them to say they wouldn't make themselves look reliable as an independent reliable investigation bureau.
But that doesn't mean that I agree with the accusations of the Onur Air CEO. I only stated that KL wouldn't mind an 8Q ban, and I think they have enough influence to force one. But unless otherwise proven, I don't think the IVW decision was forced by KL or another Dutch carrier.
Of course there have been numerous serious incidents with Onur Air, but this report is about the incidents the ban was based on. Although I think a ban was perhaps justified and I hope it served as a real warning towards Onur Air, I have my questions about the incidents the ban was based on. If I recall correctly, the immediate cause of the ban was an engine fail just after take off which was caused by Foreign Object Damage.
Ban justified? I think so. But was the ban justified at that time and for that reason? I don't know.



Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
User currently offlineFiriko From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2895 times:

Hi,
I am surprised some of you can still blame Onur Air. If it was a question of life or death like the Dutch authorities made it sound like dont you think the entire world would ban Onur Air. ? Let the courts decide, its suprising how much some of you guys can tell with out any inside information or facts ? The Ceo isn't stupid, he must know that huge misleading claims can cost him money and his airline. He must have evidencery support to back it up or his legal team would shut him up.


User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3587 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2875 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 21):
Will the government be forced to pay damages to 8Q? I wonder what court will decide that, since Turkey is not a member of the EU, and the IVW is a government institution. I fear this is a fruitless battle for 8Q, even if they turn out to be right

The fact that Turkey is not a member of the EU isn't relevant. Onur Air is a private company and can thus go to court against the decision before a dutch court.

I don't know the Dutch legal system. In Germany it is done like this: If Onur Air is denied to land in Germany by the LBA (German aviation authority), this is a so-called Verwaltungsakt (administrative decision). The individual towards which this act is adressed (= Onur Air) may go to court against it.
Lets assume the act is illegal. In this case Onur Air can go to courts and claim it is illegal, the apropriate action would be the Fortsetzungsfeststellungsklage (I don't know who invented that name) before an administrative court. This court will decide whether it was legal or not to forbid the landings in Germany.

If it was illegal, you can go to (another) court and claim compensation for the losses.

Any legal person can do that, just like a natural person.

The system is complicated and takes time, but it certainly is justified.


25 Kappel : The problem is that even if the dutch government is ordered to pay whatever amount of money to Onur Air, who will enforce the verdict? Especially a d
26 FraT : Has Onur Air sued any country or government? If yes, lets wait for the verdict. But I agree with the post above. There are similarities to the soccer
27 Illusion : A rather serious accusation but on the other hand during the days when Onur was banned KLM offered to carry Onur's passengers and the Minister refused
28 FraT : Two different subjects but a lot of similarities. You are right, some newspapers are calling for the resignation of the coach and the soccer boss. Bu
29 Illusion : Waiting for the FIFA investigation to conclude I think... They won't last long beleive me... Cheers!
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