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Light Loads On SAA ACC-IAD-ACC Sectors  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5231 times:
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I flew on SA207 from JNB to IAD via ACC on November 28, 2005. After we took of from ACC, bound for IAD, I had a walk through the main cabin and was absolutely astonished when I saw how empty economy class was.

I asked a cabin crew member about the loads and she told me that there was 50 pax in Y-class. I counted 20 of us in J-class, while I knew that F-class was totally empty. The B744 seems like a lot of plane for this route, although it may be the only equipment available in the SAA fleet to serve the route at this stage.

I personally expect the loads to pick up with the South African summer holidays starting over the next few days, but maybe more significantly, when SA officially joins Star Alliance and ties with Delta are severed. Maybe this will all make sense at that stage. Your thoughts on this subject please?


Rgds

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5174 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Thread starter):
I flew on SA207 from JNB to IAD via ACC on November 28, 2005. After we took of from ACC, bound for IAD, I had a walk through the main cabin and was absolutely astonished when I saw how empty economy class was.

The O.D. in the Washington - Accra market is a total joke.

KAHALA777


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5132 times:

This is merely anecdotal, but I was at IAD on Thanksgiving morning and saw a huge crowd at the SAA gate for its 744 flight (which surprised me as it was T-day and I didn't expect very many Americans to be flying overseas on that hallowed day !) Come December and January, I doubt if any of SAA's flights will be going empty !

User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5117 times:
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Quoting Jaysit (Reply 2):
Come December and January, I doubt if any of SAA's flights will be going empty !

My thoughts as well. Even if the 10h25 departure may seem inconvenient for connecting pax.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32787 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 1):

The O.D. in the Washington - Accra market is a total joke.

Hardly. Accra, being on of the wealthiest and most stable cities in Africa, has very healthy traffic numbers to the United States, noteably New York City and Washington, D.C. Don't forget Ghana Airways flew to Baltimore until they went under.



a.
User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5023 times:

I wonder about the SA flight every time I see the 744 at IAD. But, I also wonder about the ET flight every time I see that 763 at IAD.  Sad

There are too many other options to get to JNB from IAD. I know a several World Bank people who prefer to go via Europe to break up the trip a bit. Fares are better too from what they say.



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
User currently offlineNethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 1086 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5007 times:

This route is a JOKE!

You can use MD80s to take all passengers on this route. NOt more than 100 pax each way.

I assume that SAA will stop flying this route soon.



Let's just blame it on yields.
User currently offlinePlaneGuy27 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5001 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 1):
The O.D. in the Washington - Accra market is a total joke.

South African Airways does not have traffic rights to sell Washington Accra, all of those passengers on the IAD-ACC flight are passengers who bought IAD-JNB tickets.

Hopefully South Africa and Ghana can come to an agreement for 5th freedom traffic so that SAA can start selling the IAD-ACC sector as well.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4997 times:

I'm assuming SA still does not have traffic rights for IAD/ACC? That's the biggest problem for the segment since SA can only sell IAD/JNB and ACC/JNB. If the plane is full on ACC/JNB and SA picks up half the passengers in ACC, then IAD/ACC necessarily must be at most half full. Think of it as BA's LHR/ORD/IAH flight. Since they have no rights on ORD/IAH, it's always mostly empty.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4992 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Hardly. Accra, being on of the wealthiest and most stable cities in Africa, has very healthy traffic numbers to the United States, noteably New York City and Washington, D.C. Don't forget Ghana Airways flew to Baltimore until they went under.

Well as I am sure you are aware of, currently that is of no use to SA, as they do not have the rights to pick up-and drop off pax in ACC.

Quoting C680 (Reply 5):
I wonder about the SA flight every time I see the 744 at IAD. But, I also wonder about the ET flight every time I see that 763 at IAD.

Nothing wrong with the SA product as such. Hop onboard and try it out.  Smile Besides, why spend a day in Europe when you can save so much time flying directly with SA to JNB? More time to spend in sunny South Africa. Big grin


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4973 times:
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Quoting Nethkt (Reply 6):
I assume that SAA will stop flying this route soon.

Hardly likely. SA needs a UA hub when entry into Star Alliance is completed.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4967 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 9):
Nothing wrong with the SA product as such. Hop onboard and try it out.

I have no doubt! The Flight crews always look great (even after the long haul) and the plane's look cool as can be.

Its just that SA isn't on my list of regular destinations. I was just passing along what I have hear from others who do go to SA regularly for biz.

Hopefully the Star thing will help with UA connections to build business. I like seeing the SA birds at IAD.



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4948 times:

Quoting C680 (Reply 11):
The Flight crews always look great

I love the SA seat/service product even in Y, but I've flown with them on 10 segments and in general all flight crews were borderline surly. They did look good though!



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4859 times:

When the US-Ghana open skies takes affect in March (?), will SAA be able to grab local traffic?

User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32787 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4849 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 9):

Well as I am sure you are aware of, currently that is of no use to SA, as they do not have the rights to pick up-and drop off pax in ACC.

Correct, but if SAA knew that was permanent, they would not have routed the flight via Accra. When US-Ghana Open Skies go into affect in January 2006, SAA will be able to have traffic rights between Dulles and Accra. IIRC, the IAD-ACC segment was bookable starting in January for a short time, but no longer is. No idea why.



a.
User currently offlineF27XXX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4824 times:

If they cant drop off or pick up at ACC, then why stop there at all? Is it for freight ? If its for a fuel stop, why dont they use SID like they do for hte JFK/ATL flights?

In fact, i thought the fuel stop was really only necessary in one direction anyway since the 744 has the range for the east (south?) bound route but not the return. Am I wrong?


User currently offlineSoups From Ghana, joined Jun 2004, 3438 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4778 times:

ACC-north america routes are very popular Ghana Airways had plans to fly to Atlanta and Toronto but never happened due to lack of aircraft then went bust.
SAA had some seats for sale on ACC-IAD before but didn't last for long. i remember calling SAA in London, IAD-ACC via JNB was 200£ cheaper than IAD-ACC.
i believed they only had monday flights ACC-IAD and IAD-ACC for sale in begining. they have been withdrwan from the CRS



Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
User currently offlineAcvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4751 times:

Open Skies is between Ghana and the US. Only a US carrier or a Ghana carrier can take advantage of those rights. SAA is not able to do so.

User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32787 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4731 times:

Quoting Acvitale (Reply 17):
Open Skies is between Ghana and the US. Only a US carrier or a Ghana carrier can take advantage of those rights. SAA is not able to do so.

A third carrier can take advantage of that as long as their air treaty with both the two other nation's will allow it. For example, when Open Skies was reached between the US and the Cape Verde Islands, SAA was allowed full traffic rights from the island.



a.
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4706 times:
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Quoting Soups (Reply 16):
ACC-north america routes are very popular Ghana Airways had plans to fly to Atlanta and Toronto but never happened due to lack of aircraft then went bust.
SAA had some seats for sale on ACC-IAD before but didn't last for long. i remember calling SAA in London, IAD-ACC via JNB was 200£ cheaper than IAD-ACC.
i believed they only had monday flights ACC-IAD and IAD-ACC for sale in begining. they have been withdrwan from the CRS

I think the answer may be here:

http://www.fly-ghana.com

While they may not have the necessary equipment available yet, I will to a reasonable extent, "bet the farm on it" that Ghana (as is the case with Nigeria) will block any attempt by SA to get rights to carry pax to the USA via ACC.

Rgds, from cold Chicago

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4671 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
A third carrier can take advantage of that as long as their air treaty with both the two other nation's will allow it. For example, when Open Skies was reached between the US and the Cape Verde Islands, SAA was allowed full traffic rights from the island.

I understand the open skies as being negotiated between the US and another country, and may or may not include the provision that allows other countries with similar deals free access to the market. This is not like setting up a 'free trade' area, but more of the US making deals with each individual country to allow x number of airlines from the US and the other country to start up fligths between any two cities (one in US and the other in the other country). It's like bilaterals, but removes the bilateral's rules that have restrictions on cities, frequency, airlines etc. Recall how Canada and the US have open skies, yet it still has restrictions, and that they had just concluded another round of talks with much more freedom?

As ACVitale mentioned, the US-Ghana Open Skies agreement allows for only a US carrier or a Ghana carrier to operate freely between the two countries. Unless you have access to the literature of the specific Open Skies agreement between the US and Ghana that states otherwise, I will have to side on ACVitale because I know he is in a better position to be in the know.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4638 times:

Quoting C680 (Reply 5):
I wonder about the SA flight every time I see the 744 at IAD. But, I also wonder about the ET flight every time I see that 763 at IAD.

The metropolitan Washington DC area has the largest Ethiopian population - outside of Ethiopia. It is almost 150,000 strong. The ET flight is, thus, very popular as it is really the only way to get from DC to Addis Ababa and back without having to change planes in Europe and add a good 10 hours to the journey.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 1):

The O.D. in the Washington - Accra market is a total joke.

Hardly. Accra, being on of the wealthiest and most stable cities in Africa, has very healthy traffic numbers to the United States, noteably New York City and Washington, D.C. Don't forget Ghana Airways flew to Baltimore until they went under.

You're right.
The Ghana Airways flights from BWI were ALWAYS full. They were almost always delayed too, sometimes by a day or more.


User currently offlineMalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4597 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 1):
The O.D. in the Washington - Accra market is a total joke.

Its all just IAD-JNB traffic, omit ACC, its not a pax stop



There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4538 times:
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What percentage of pax on the JNB-ATL-JNB sectors are actually O&D as opposed to connecting pax?

Although United connections into-and out of IAD must be on a smaller scale than that of Delta in ATL, surely there must be ample feed into IAD from larger metropolitan areas, as well as other domestic airlines to feed connecting pax onto the SA flight? The ATL flight leaves at 10h30 in the morning for JNB via SID, while the flight from IAD via ACC, leaves at 10h25. IAD is not the ideal airport for quick connections with the current layout and construction going on, but eventually those negative aspects should be sorted out.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 23):
IAD is not the ideal airport for quick connections with the current layout and construction going on, but eventually those negative aspects should be sorted out.

It isn't.

You're right.

And I'm not sure if Delta has adequate traffic feeding into the SAA flight before 10:25 AM. SAA may be interlining with other carriers, however.


25 SA7700 : Delta may have adequate feed to the SA flight, but I think there are some pax who interline via other carriers. Personally I flew DL only once and de
26 Panamair : Virtually all of Delta's domestic US destinations arrive in ATL in time for the 1025 SAA flight to JNB. That's hundreds of cities, from smaller airpo
27 Jaysit : I was referring to the IAD flight, not the ATL flight.
28 Panamair : Sorry - my bad...I was reading the post above about DL feed for ATL-JNB...In the case of DL and IAD at that time of the A.M., probably zip. For that
29 Post contains images SA7700 : The loads on IAD-ACC last night were 60 Y-class pax and 9 of us in J-class. In ACC the entire Y-and J-class filled up to 100%, with 1 pax upfront in F
30 ETStar : Thanks for reporting SA7700. So you're saying no F pax IAD-ACC, then only 1 ACC-JNB? Wow!
31 Kahala777 : This was vastly due to the low, low, low airfares that were offered from JFK and BWI to ACC! In recent years the bulk of traffic to Accra has gone to
32 Soups : If SAA will be granted IAD-ACC 5th freedom flights will be almost full each directions
33 Bwione : KAHALA777 I think you are mistaken. Ghana actually had fairly high fares from BWI and filled its business class on a regular basis. You have to rememb
34 Soups : i Diagree with you. i flown GH to BWI and JFK for under 750$$
35 Post contains images ETStar : But soups, as with any airline, the market is so segmented that airlines have many many fares for each flight. I have paid $130 once to go across the
36 Soups : USA flights never went thru BKO. some went thru BJL. GH had problems with lack of aircrafts hence the delays and low frequecy. i booked my ticket on t
37 SA7700 : Yup, that would be the case. That is quite a chunk of possible revenue being wasted. I expect that 5th freedom rights would make a significant change
38 MaverickM11 : It doesn't sound like there's much capacity left on IAD/JNB since it's being mostly allocated to ACC/JNB. They'd have to reroute IAD through SID--or
39 SA7700 : It may be (I may be wrong). I don't really think that SA allocates X-number of seats specifically for the JNB-ACC-JNB market. Obviously it is a huge
40 Elagabal : Don't you mean BA? They fly to ACC, but AF don't, IIRC (on both counts).
41 GreyGoose : Looks like SAA has taken heed of the poor performance of the route, and rumour is that they will send the IAD flight via Dakar starting in April. They
42 SA7700 : Potentially way too much pax for the plane. The 744's offers about 288 Y-class seats, while the 738's can accommodate 125 Y-class pax. As I have ment
43 Soups : ABJ was initially served via ACC. since ACC and IAD flights were joined ABJ was served by a 737-800. The 737-800 was later dropped and flights to ABJ
44 GreyGoose : Unfortunately the SA-Ghana bilaterals only allow for four weekly flights, so the 737-800 will only fly 4/week. It will also then 'dead leg' onto ABJ.
45 Soups : SAA use t fly 767s and a340-200 to Accra. on one ocaasion I believe tey flew the a340-600 back in january 2005. I believe JNB is on the cards for GIA
46 Post contains images SA7700 : I believe so... GIA and some of its officials will do everything in their power to stop SA from expanding, in any form, on this route. Rgds SA7700
47 AF022 : This would be an interesting development. Has anyone else heard this rumor? I'm not looking for a source, but perhaps a second confirmation? I don't
48 SA7700 : Well everybody was infuriated when SA withdrew from MIA and started codesharing with DL to ATL. Many people doomed the route before it even started
49 ACVitale : sa7700, Besides the untrue and factually incorrect information on GIA and its officials do you have any other untruths? GIA met with SAA several times
50 SA7700 : As a matter of fact I said some officials - read very closely. Anyhow, a respected GIA official / consultant told me pertinently that he and GIA woul
51 Soups : SAA flight yesterday JNB-ACC was fully booked. our company had some perishable cargo comning from JNB to ACC but was left in JNB due to lack of space
52 YOWza : Well Accra is rich compared to most cities in its region but that is not saying a hell of a lot. Besides most Ghanains have closer ties to Europe, th
53 Soups : I picked up yesterday ACC airport timetable (printed in november) they have G0 schedules inside (the ones not launches) they included LOS EWR and IAD
54 ETStar : Soups, what do those timetables for EWR, IAD, LOS say? Can't leave us hangin' without details now ya know.
55 Post contains images SA7700 : What goes around comes around. Rgds SA7700
56 Soups : on the airport timetable they state flight to start in dec 05 but nothing happened probably lack of aircraft
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