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Virgin And 772LR  
User currently offlineCtang From Australia, joined Jul 2001, 139 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 11 months 15 hours ago) and read 5487 times:

Do you think Virgin Atlantic will order the 772LR in order to fly from London to Sydney nonstop? This will pose a big threat to QF.

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 15 hours ago) and read 5459 times:

What about the other way around if QF opts for the 772LR? Will VS have to follow suit?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 15 hours ago) and read 5438 times:

We're likely to see QF try this very soon. I think VS would then wait to see how well it work for QF before making a decision to follow suit.

User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 14 hours ago) and read 5384 times:

I'd love to see any T7 in VS colors, that's for sure. I think if QF orders the 772LR for the Kangaroo route, a lot of airlines will jump onto the bandwagon.

User currently offlineWillyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 5267 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
What about the other way around if QF opts for the 772LR? Will VS have to follow suit?

Given VS's lack of success thus far (from what I've heard here) on the LHR-SYD route, I don't see why they would feel they "had" to follow suit. They are a very small player in this market - BA, QF, EK, SQ, CX, MS, TG all offer more seats.
However, vS wants to break into this market, and the 772LR might be a great option. So far their major problem has been selling seats between HKG and SYD because most of the seats are already taken by LHR - HKG passengers and vv. This way thier LHR-HKG flight wouldn't have to share seats with SYD passengers.
What ever happened to the rumored 2nd VS flight from LHR to HKG by the way? Wasn't that a soloution to their problem?


User currently offlineBlsbls99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

Why wouldn't Virgin hold more seats for SYD passengers and turn away LHR - HKG passengers?
If what you state is the case, sounds like they have an issue with seat management.



319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5716 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 5155 times:

Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 5):
Why wouldn't Virgin hold more seats for SYD passengers and turn away LHR - HKG passengers?
If what you state is the case, sounds like they have an issue with seat management

You would turn away a "sure" sale LON-HKG in the "hope" that you will get a LON-SYD sale in the future?

Does not sound like good business practice to me!


Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1483 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 5135 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 6):
You would turn away a "sure" sale LON-HKG in the "hope" that you will get a LON-SYD sale in the future?

Does not sound like good business practice to me!

Agree.


However...they should have either a direct LHR-SYD to make sure those pax have seats available...and/or get another LHR-HKG flight and make the original LHR-HKG-SYD flight for LHR-SYD pax except for about 20-30 seats and make em pay for it if they want those seats...I guess unless the flight is full on BOTH segments than I dont believe VS is making much money on that flight. Just pulled up fares on VS...lowest LHR-HKG 432GPB, lowest LHR-SYD 739GBP. So its almost like another ticket from HKG-SYD...VS should do something so they make the most out of that flight!!!


User currently offlineIluv747400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 372 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 4942 times:

What would happen to their "4 engines 4 long haul" slogan?

User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2820 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 4928 times:

Quoting Iluv747400 (Reply 8):
What would happen to their "4 engines 4 long haul" slogan?

4 engines 4 long haul

2 engines 2 fly even further


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 4916 times:

maybe theyll wait untill the ''new'' A340-500/600.... Airbus promises a much better performance than the 777-200LR/300ER, although it will take a while before they take into the sky's

User currently offline767-332ER From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2030 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 8 hours ago) and read 4801 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 10):
maybe theyll wait untill the ''new'' A340-500/600.... Airbus promises a much better performance than the 777-200LR/300ER, although it will take a while before they take into the sky's

If Airbus got it right in the first place and not have to wait and see how Boeing beats them by setting the bar that much higher, then they'd be in a better position and not have to wait as long.



Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
User currently offlinePixuk From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 322 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 8 hours ago) and read 4729 times:

Seems unlikely. Firstly, VS is moving to all-Airbus operations (certainly at LHR), and also they've already got their shopping list sorted out for the foreseeable future. Buying the 772LR just to operate one route wouldn't be economically sensible, as crew/maintenance issues would give them one hell of a headache.

I understand there are some developments to be announced regarding Oz, but nothing to do with the equipment.

Pete


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months ago) and read 4426 times:

While as much as I would like to see Virgin place a 777 order, I dont think that its going to happen......Virgin would essentially be buying the 772LR for one route, its LHR-SYD service, which is really not practical. Virgin does not need the range of the 772LR for any other potential route in its system, and flying a small fleet of 772LRs next to the A346s is not very effecient. Other issues are that the 772LRs are quite expensive to acquire, Virgin has not done as well as expected on its service to SYD (a lot does have to do with the flight's route via HKG which has proved to be troublesome), and, lastly, Boeing has not yet confirmed that the 772LR will be able to operate LHR-SYD year round nonstop in both directions with an economic payload. Boeing is close from what we hear to achieving this goal, but is being cautious (and rightly so).

That being said, Virgin is a very competitive and innovative airline, and we could be suprised......there is no doubt that QF will sign up for the 772LR once Boeing will guaranty that the 772LR can do the LHR-SYD route and Virgin could follow with its own order.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 10):
maybe theyll wait untill the ''new'' A340-500/600.... Airbus promises a much better performance than the 777-200LR/300ER, although it will take a while before they take into the sky's

A couple of things to consider: the enhanced A345/A346s which are being talked about as a response to Boeing recent success with the 772LR/773ER are a long way off.......I think 2011 or 2012 is the time frame now being talked about, thats a long time to wait. Also, its far from certain that Airbus will commit to these projects.....Airbus has a lot going on at the moment with the A380 program and its issues, the A350 launch, talk about an update or successor to the A32X family (the volume line and profit center for Airbus) and now improved versions of the A345/A346. Lastly, Airbus has gotten itself into a difficult situation with some carriers recently and must be very careful not to over-estimate the potential performance of new products and must get back to delivering products on schedule, EK publically put Airbus on notice this week and its known that QF and SQ are not pleased with the delays in the A380 program, and certainly other airlines are closely watching the situation. It may not be the best time for Airbus to take on yet another project with enhanced versions of the A345/A346 airlines.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31125 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4207 times:
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I agree with those who feel VS will not buy 772LRs to launch non-stop SYD-LHR service.

They might, however, decide to take some A345s (perhaps AC's or, if/when they also move to 772LRs, SQ's) and outfit them in a boutique 100-seat Upper Class config to fly direct. VS does have some advantages in services on the ground (especially at LHR) and in the air that could make such a low-pax flight into a high-yield one.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4183 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 10):
maybe theyll wait untill the ''new'' A340-500/600.... Airbus promises a much better performance than the 777-200LR/300ER, although it will take a while before they take into the sky's

they have NOT promised MUCH BETTER performance than the 777-200LR, but in fact the same performance, and though the 346E proposed might do better than the current 773ER, it isn't a great deal better. If B only improves the plane 0.5% per year from now until 2012, they would match what Airbus offers, still with 2 engines.

Look at the history of the 747classic, 757, 767, 737NG and 777 and you will see very slight but steady increases in abilities every couple of years from improved engines, aero tweaks, lighter materials of some interior parts, etc.

The 346 is never going to offer "much better" performance than the 777. It never has, and it never will with 4 engines. This is because Airbus doesn't have a monopoly on engine advances. Anything RR/GE/PW/etc can do for A they can do for B.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1624 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
They might, however, decide to take some A345s (perhaps AC's or, if/when they also move to 772LRs, SQ's) and outfit them in a boutique 100-seat Upper Class config to fly direct. VS does have some advantages in services on the ground (especially at LHR) and in the air that could make such a low-pax flight into a high-yield one.

I still doubt they would do it, but that is a much more likely scenario (esp if some cheap SQ A345's become available!). I'd imagine an Upper Class and PE cabin could do it, and have engine/crew/parts commonanilty with the A346 fleet.

Much more plausible is a second HKG frequency to assist with through loads on the VS200/201 service.


User currently offlineB707Stu From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

I think Mr. Branson has too much pride to order the T7, he committed heavily to Airbus, would take an act of contrition and repentence for that to change.

User currently offlineSevenforeseven From France, joined Nov 2005, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

Willyj, You have it spot on. The VS flights to HKG are full therefore restricting the amount of seats VS are actually able to sell LHR-SYD from LHR. The aircraft used is a A340-600, "too small". the same happens on the return sector where the flight between HKG and LHR is full but SYD and HKG is not.
Perhaps VS can base a A340-300 in HKG or SYD to fly between the two and then pax can transfer on to a B747-400 for the LHR sector. I am sure VS would have looked into this but it maybe that the costs involved in the basing of a A/C away from LHR must have been huge.
On a brighter note I see VS loads have been steadily picking up between SYD and HKG, this is no doubt to the higher levels of service than the traditional two carriers BA & QF.
VS also state that it takes at least two years for a route to start earning profitable revenue. VS have only been flying it a year.
Good luck to VS as it sure has given the two bedroom partners BA and QF a good kick up the backside which has been long long overdue.


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3005 times:

AC A345's are only 372 MTOW i belive, you'd need the 380MTOW one to even consider LHR-SYD and even that probably wouldn't offer enough pax to make it viable.

I think they'd only bother if the mysterious A345E went through, it could potentially have quite a tasty range. The A345 already has massive fuel tanks and MTOW, but is let down by its astonishing OEW - it's more of an A346SP. If they could get some of that weight off and give it more efficient engines, i'd imagine they could increase that range enough to allow SYD-LHR comfortably in both directions.

Both ideas are a long way off reality at the minute though.


User currently offlineBlsbls99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

Still sounds like a case of seat/revenue management to me. I would assume that VS would have some indication of the demand for LHR-SYD, and thus not sell as many LHR-HKG seats so that they could make more money by sellling LHR-SYD tickets (if this is where the profit is to be had). And yes, there's always the risk that you turn away a paying passenger for LHR-HKG, but on the flip side of that is if you don't do anything, you lose a higher paying fare for LHR-SYD (and I assume a higher profit). And if those are repeat/frequent travelers on the route, because they have to chose another carrier with availability, you run the risk of losing them to that carrier for future flights (if they are satisfied with service, value, etc.).
Sounds like the better deal for VS would be more frequencies on LHR-HKG, but perhaps the demand isn't there for a LHR-HKG in addition to the LHR-HKG-SYD routing.



319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
User currently offlineAerofan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Having just flown the LON/HKG/SYD last week- all that i can say is well done VS. Superb set of flts. Kudos to all the crew! IMHO you are in the top 3 of the world's best airlines. Now if only we can get a T7 on the route ....

User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3228 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2504 times:

What about NZ ordering the 777LR (which it has optional rights for) and launching AKL-SYD-LHR as well as MEL-AKL-JFK? NZ are currently negotiating extra slots at LHR.

Food for thought. They could do it first.

Regards
MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineA340Driver From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 94 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2273 times:

VS happy with SYD, it has picked up and doing much better. Double daily HKG in 2006 with 1 continuing to SYD.

User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

From reading the posts regarding the VS seat shortage on the LHR-HKG-SYD you all seem to be forgetting something.... VS is getting A380's and could thus increase their seats offered....

25 Pixuk : As has always been the problem, VS have plenty of new routes and increased frequencies on their wishlist, but they're held back by lack of metal. The
26 Richard28 : but not until 2008....
27 A319XFW : True... I guess they would want a stop-gap to feed the demand until the 'big one' comes....
28 Stitch : If QF has to fly a 200-pax config to get to LHR from Australia, would NZ find it worth the effort to try and do it from AKL, then stopping over in SY
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