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Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race  
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13985 times:

A great article from The Australian

Quote:

BOEING appears set to win the lion's share of the Qantas fleet order for 100 mid-sized medium- and ultra-long-range aircraft.

The order is worth $15 billion and is to be announced next week.

This week, Boeing was handed unexpected help in the high-stakes poker game that pits its ultra-long-range 300-seat 777-200LR and its 230 to 280-seat, medium-to-long-range 787 against Airbus's A340 and A350.

In an unusual attack, Emirates president Tim Clark has stung Europe's Airbus in the Flight International journal, saying his airline must be convinced that the 250 to 290-seat A350 would not repeat the "misses" by Airbus in performance and delivery, if the Europeans were to beat the Boeing 787. Emirates has held off ordering either aircraft as it tries to convince Boeing to build a larger version of the 787, the 787-10 - which is the airline's preferred option.

Boeing also said yesterday that it had reduced the Boeing 777-300ER/200LR fuel burn by 1.4 per cent with aerodynamic improvements and weight savings.

The fuel burn reduction comes on top of the 2 per cent improvement achieved during the flight test program, which finished late last year for the 777-300ER. These improvements mean the 777-200LR will be capable of a Sydney-London non-stop flight with an economical payload, Qantas insiders say.

While the 777-200LR appears to be a clear winner over the A340-500 for the ultra-long-range hub-busting mission for Qantas, the race for the larger order, between the 787 and A350, is closer run, with the 787 a short nose in front.

Given how successfull Boeing has been at Family pricing the 777 and 787 together, I really doubt that QF would split this order. I also find it interesting that the paper thinks that the EK warning shifted things more to Boeing's advantage. QF and EK are hardly fast friends.

A couple of other interesting quotes:

Quote:

That comment came after Mr Chew and Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon sat through a dinner at June's International Air Transport Association conference in Tokyo, where Airbus's Mr Leahy told an amazed audience of airline CEOs the A380 delays were due to special airline specifications.

That glib remark irritated airline CEOs, who pointed out that the features they were specifying were nothing compared with the McDonald's, duty-free shops etc that Airbus was touting in its advertising and marketing presentations for the A380.

And

Quote:

But on guarantees, Boeing's conservatism generally pays off with the manufacturer typically exceeding its contract promises.

That conservatism is starting to pay big dividends on the 787 with Boeing able to promise Qantas special versions to meet its particular requirements for extra range on the one hand, and a lighter version on the other for domestic routes.


121 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1616 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13890 times:

I'm staying clear of the usual A vs B, but just to add balance, the original Flight International article also quoted Emirates airline president Tim Clark saying “The A350-900 is a brilliant machine if it does what Airbus says it will"

Rich.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13839 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Thread starter):
I also find it interesting that the paper thinks that the EK warning shifted things more to Boeing's advantage. QF and EK are hardly fast friends.

In my mind it sort of makes the whole article sketchy. Even if EK and QF were "fast friends," I don't see how EK making such a statement would impact QF's purchase decision.


User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13768 times:

3 words: Wait & See... I think however that the majority of the order will go to Airbus.  yes 



...lmao.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13748 times:

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 1):
I'm staying clear of the usual A vs B, but just to add balance, the original Flight International article also quoted Emirates airline president Tim Clark saying “The A350-900 is a brilliant machine if it does what Airbus says it will"

This statement as well as EK's decision to base their fleet around the 777 rather then the A340 indicates that he has doubts that it will.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 2):
In my mind it sort of makes the whole article sketchy. Even if EK and QF were "fast friends," I don't see how EK making such a statement would impact QF's purchase decision.

I think the fact that EK (which is a customer that has single handidly given creditability to the A380) issued such a public demarche was a huge slap at Airbus. It's one thing to complain about Airbus failing to meet commitments after they actually fail. To warn publically about it while still evaluating the A350 versus the 787-10 is another matter.

If the 787-10 is built, it will have been expressly for EK.

All that being said I would be shocked if QF didn't go for Boeing at this point, simply because the LHR <-> SYD trip to them is the holy grail. Every plane that Airbus or Boeing have pushed QF has asked for more range. The headwinds make it so that even larger capacity is needed.

Boeing is offering a plane smaller that can make this flight economically. Airbus offered way to few seats on a A340. That in my mind will seal this deal.

A key word in this article is "hub buster." QF has to fly non stops directly to Australia from their markets to effectivly compete with EK and their Dubai hub. Flying over Dubai from LHR without a stop in DXB gives them a small advantage over EK.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13736 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 3):
3 words: Wait & See... I think however that the majority of the order will go to Airbus.

Any reasons why?


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13704 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 5):
Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 3):
3 words: Wait & See... I think however that the majority of the order will go to Airbus.

Any reasons why?

i think he might have been joking...............



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13663 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 3):
3 words: Wait & See... I think however that the majority of the order will go to Airbus.

Per the article, I'd say majority of orders goes to Boeing but you're right about one thing, let's wait and see coz it could go either way.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13596 times:

I don't think TC's words will influence QF per se, but he was certainly saying something out loud that other airlines are probably thinking to themselves and in that sense, Airbus's misses and late deliveries will certainly have an effect on the orders tally.

Frankly, I think Airbus has been quite demoralised recently; 2005 has unquestionably been Boeing's year and next Wednesday (which may not see the last Boeing order of the year) will see a huge boost to its numbers. Remember, Boeing has been in this position before - the 764 must have been a big disappointment and there were certainly times when observers suspected that Boeing had lost its way; however, with the departure of Stonecipher, Boeing got a much more aggressive leader and we're seeing the fruits of that now - AI, AC, CX, EK and soon, QF. Airbus just has to pull itself up by its bootstraps and take an objective look at where it has been going wrong. Much of its problems are problems which Boeing (and indeed Airbus itself) have previously suffered and have recovered from. It has a good product line (although the A340 is clearly yesterday's plane) and it needs to plan forward - learn lessons from 2005, but put it behind them.


User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2229 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13417 times:

I look forward to this QF decision and I'd say that if Boeing can grab the lion's share of the 787/350 battle then it will come down to EK's eventual decision in this category that makes or breaks the 350. If EK launches the 78-10 at the expense of the 359 it will be a brutal day at Airbus, not only from a numbers perspective but also from a customer quality point of view. From that point forward, the cash flow health for Airbus's mid-size segment will rely almost exclusively on AF, LH and BA. I only see Boeing having a realistic shot at BA in this group because if EK goes Boeing the political pressure on AF and LH to buy Airbus will be staggering. Outside of that the 350 will have side sticks so LH will be an automatic. And for AF the 350 will have the option of GE engines so a much easier decision than the 777 vs. 345/6. As for the US carriers I expect the same pressure and most orders will go to Boeing.

I expect both manufacturers to offer EK the absolute lowest total price in this battle because it will be the pivotal battle of 2006. A win for Boeing would practically guarantee absolute success of the 787 over the 350 and for Airbus it will be crucial to stop this from happening.


User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13368 times:

Quoting Wingman (Reply 9):
From that point forward, the cash flow health for Airbus's mid-size segment will rely almost exclusively on AF, LH and BA.

Are these the only airlines left on that planet? And AF and LH won't make an A350/B787 decision anytime soon.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 9):
only see Boeing having a realistic shot at BA in this group because if EK goes Boeing the political pressure on AF and LH to buy Airbus will be staggering.

Oh, the same political pressure which forced AF to order A346s?  Yeah sure

Quoting Wingman (Reply 9):
I expect both manufacturers to offer EK the absolute lowest total price in this battle because it will be the pivotal battle of 2006. A win for Boeing would practically guarantee absolute success of the 787 over the 350 and for Airbus it will be crucial to stop this from happening.

Interesting that EK is now regarded by many people as such an important airline after placing record orders for the B777 and after showing interest in the stretched B787...some time back when they ordered the A380 the same people called them a crazy state-owned airline from an unstabile region...  scratchchin 


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13195 times:

what an impressive objective article by

Geoffrey Thomas, co-author of Boeing 787 Dreamliner - Flying Redefined.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4316 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13019 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 8):
however, with the departure of Stonecipher, Boeing got a much more aggressive leader and we're seeing the fruits of that now - AI, AC, CX, EK and soon, QF.

Not to split hairs, but it was Condit's departure that allowed Boeing to turn itself around. Stonecipher led the push for a makeover and a more aggressive attitude towards Airbus. He just happened to fall victim to a few indescretions. But his legacy is living on and all the campaigns for the airlines you mention were in fact started under his watch.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):
Interesting that EK is now regarded by many people as such an important airline after placing record orders for the B777 and after showing interest in the stretched B787...some time back when they ordered the A380 the same people called them a crazy state-owned airline from an unstabile region...

I noticed that myself, JM. But at least unlike the others, I still think they are a "crazy state-owned airline from an unstable region".  Big grin



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13000 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Thread starter):
A great article...

Not if you're Airbus...


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12943 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 13):
Not to split hairs, but it was Condit's departure that allowed Boeing to turn itself around. Stonecipher led the push for a makeover and a more aggressive attitude towards Airbus. He just happened to fall victim to a few indescretions. But his legacy is living on and all the campaigns for the airlines you mention were in fact started under his watch.

More to the point, promoting Mullally is one of the best decisions Boeing has ever made. Leahy may be flashy but Boeing has more creditability with him at the help. Stonecipher was very effective, but Boeing has kept the momentum after Stonecipher left.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12937 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 8):
Frankly, I think Airbus has been quite demoralised recently; 2005 has unquestionably been Boeing's year

I can't see why they're that "demoralised". They are closing in on 1000 orders and committments for the year, even if preponderance are in the narrow body A320 family. Still a fantastic performance.


Quoting Kaitak (Reply 8):
don't think TC's words will influence QF per se, but he was certainly saying something out loud that other airlines are probably thinking to themselves and in that sense, Airbus's misses and late deliveries will certainly have an effect on the orders tally.

IMO,you framed the debate nicely and put the quote in the context the author intended.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12919 times:

Quoting Wingman (Reply 9):
I expect both manufacturers to offer EK the absolute lowest total price in this battle because it will be the pivotal battle of 2006. A win for Boeing would practically guarantee absolute success of the 787 over the 350 and for Airbus it will be crucial to stop this from happening.

EK is in no way a make or break battle for Boeing.

Boeing has already taken out two of the largest A330 carriers in NW and AC with the 787. The have most of the blue chip carriers already committed to the platform. With AA (Boeing loyalist - large boeing backorder), AC (dumped their 330s and going 787), DL (Boeing loyalist - large boeing backorder), CO (replacing 767 with 787) and NW (dumped the 330 for the 787) in the pocket, the only large battle for the 787 versus A340/350 is going to be over at UA (mixed fleet of both boeing and airbus, large airbus backorder).

If you want to fly the A350 in the largest airplane market in the world, you may be restricted to US and maybe UA.

Airbus's best chance for take aways has been the the Trifecta of CX, SQ and QF. Airbus will have unhappy investors on their hands if they loose all three of thoose orders. CX should have been the easiest for them to pick up, and they just lost that order to Boeing perhaps for a generation (CX has indicated that the 777 will now be the backbone of their fleet). SQ is already the largest Boeing carrier which makes them the hardest to pick up. Given EK's statements and CX's decision to move to the 777 I think it is fair to consider the A340 problems confirmed which also will make it hard for SQ to pick another 340 brand aircraft. QF is a target that Airbus has wanted for a while, but I really don't see a way that Airbus will get this order. They physically don't have a plane that will accomplish what QF wants. (Long range hub buster).

Looking further Airbus wants BA and they want EK. EK should have been a walk in the park for them. The original A350 was clearly aimed at them (given EK's complaints about the 787 being too small) and they are the foundation for the A380. EK's decision to go boeing for their "mid-size" (about the only time you will see that describing the 777) and possibly for small (787) planes would be a huge problem for Airbus.

BA is the crown jewels. BA gives creditability just because of the percentage of international travel and european travel it controls. BA is a long time Boeing playground. Getting into that market gives them marketing advantages.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12916 times:

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):

Interesting that EK is now regarded by many people as such an important airline after placing record orders for the B777 and after showing interest in the stretched B787...some time back when they ordered the A380 the same people called them a crazy state-owned airline from an unstabile region...

See above. I really think that EK's growth is rather suicidal. The fact that they are using 777 as their "mid capacity" airliner boggles the mind. As market liberalization occurs I think that EK will have to shift more and more of it's resources over to the 787/777/350 market space to compete with the carrier's frequencies.

Maybe EK can flourish where PeopleExpress, PanAM, TWA et all failed. But I wouldn't put money on it.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12891 times:

Quoting Wingman (Reply 9):
From that point forward, the cash flow health for Airbus's mid-size segment will rely almost exclusively on AF, LH and BA

What about IB?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4316 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12800 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 17):
QF is a target that Airbus has wanted for a while, but I really don't see a way that Airbus will get this order.

Actually, I could see at the QF order going to Airbus. They've lost CX and if they lose or are informed that they will lose SQ then I could see them making the proverbial "Hail Mary pass" - a last minute offer that makes it just too irresistable for QF to walk away from. Desperate men [read manufacturers] do desperate things.

(NOTE: I'm not saying Airbus is a desperate company; just that they may be willing to take a dump in order to win at least one of three high-profile campaigns.)



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineAeroPiggot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12792 times:

Gentlemen,
Do not count Airbus out, Airbus is a tenacious competitor, and if they can't beat you on economics/technology, they will beat you on price. I don't particularly like Leahy or Foregard, but I respect them tremendously. If I were Boeing, I would not count my chickens too early. Also, if Airbus know they are going to loose this deal, then why not lower your price to the extent that your competitor loose money on the deal by trying to match your price level.

Stay tune!!



A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12092 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12760 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting AirFrnt (Thread starter):
Emirates has held off ordering either aircraft as it tries to convince Boeing to build a larger version of the 787, the 787-10 - which is the airline's preferred option.

I thought EK preferred the A350 option, obviously I'm totally wrong

Will be interesting to see whats ordered and in what quantity on december 9th


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12751 times:

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 21):
Do not count Airbus out, Airbus is a tenacious competitor, and if they can't beat you on economics/technology, they will beat you on price. I don't particularly like Leahy or Foregard, but I respect them tremendously. If I were Boeing, I would not count my chickens too early. Also, if Airbus know they are going to loose this deal, then why not lower your price to the extent that your competitor loose money on the deal by trying to match your price level.

You can only lower your price so far before you attract the attention of anti-dumping authorities, and Airbus already has a magnifying glass on them, in this respect.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12678 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 23):
You can only lower your price so far before you attract the attention of anti-dumping authorities, and Airbus already has a magnifying glass on them, in this respect.

Seriously? I'm not doubting you... I have no knowledge of this subject, but is this a fact? A-net authorities, or actual ones (holding the current magnifying glass)?

[Edited 2005-12-01 23:34:07]

User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12587 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
Actually, I could see at the QF order going to Airbus. They've lost CX and if they lose or are informed that they will lose SQ then I could see them making the proverbial "Hail Mary pass" - a last minute offer that makes it just too irresistable for QF to walk away from. Desperate men [read manufacturers] do desperate things.

There is only so much Airbus can do. They can get rid of their profit margins on the planes (but what good does selling it do), they can put more fuel tanks on a A340, but the bottom line is that they can't get a A340 to fly non-stop from LHR to SYD with a economic payload.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 22):
I thought EK preferred the A350 option, obviously I'm totally wrong

EK has asked Boeing for a plane custom made for them. The A350 as spec'd is targeted directly at them. That basically turns the whole thing into a Boeing versus Airbus battle. If Airbus had launched the A350 as it currently stands the same time as Boeing launched the 787 I suspect EK would have ordered 50 of them. Given the A380 schedule miss, Boeing's momentum with the 787 and the 772LR, and the large EK 777 order, I am not so sure now.


25 OzGlobal : Why? Because it's pro-Boeing? No, the more threatening type that the US government exerts in Japan, I think he means.
26 Ikramerica : Very true. If the 359 had EIS of 2008, the order would be set in stone. The problem is the 359 has an EIS of late 2010/early 2011. EK was able to go
27 PanAm_DC10 : So did I and I was amazed they didn't order it at Dubai and was surprised by the size of the 777 order they placed. Since Dubai we've seen Tim Clarks
28 AirFrnt : They have a american magnifying glass on them. I doubt the political will exists in Europe to haul Airbus in.
29 AeroPiggot : No airline put down deposits for 100 wide body airplanes all at once. They will probably announce an order for 25 with follow on options for 50 more.
30 PanAm_DC10 : Respectfully, is that the best you can get me on? Give it a break and look at what I said, You just repeated it for me. No, QF will most likely not u
31 N79969 : Living in France can cause people to have such hallucinations
32 N79969 : Why not? Because the current conditions favor Boeing's product line and they are reporting the facts?
33 Post contains images Aerokiwi : "Noses ahead"? Are you kidding??!! The 787 order is in the bag. Airbus simply doesn't have a medium range offering in the 230-250 seat category to rep
34 Dutchjet : I have to agree with most of the posts, I think that Boeing is going to be the big winner here, ending an astonishing year of sales for the men and wo
35 Ikramerica : Poor 748. Nobody gives it a chance, but for those who fly the 773ER/772LR/788 and already fly the 744, the 748 does slot in nicely, if in a niche, co
36 Wingman : Well Udo, I still think EK is a very risky proposition from a long term perspective. I know the airlne can fill a good portion of their widebodies but
37 Sq212 : Agreed. IMO, QR is likewise risky but to a lesser degree than EK. It will be interesting to watch if EK and QR aggressive expansion is going to bear
38 Glideslope : Of course it will be, "If it does what Airbus says it will." This problem has been coming to a head ever since the 346 and it's issues. People spend
39 Lehpron : In a small way I find it facinating how Boeing can pitch multiple 777 orders but not the pax version of their new 748 in fewer numbers (to relieve slo
40 Wingman : Glideslope makes an excellent point but I would add that there's nothing suspect about Airbus per se, it's their very excellence which makes them what
41 N79969 : This is an interesting prediction. Why do you think they would get rid of him? Their recent sales trends have more to do with the products and less w
42 Post contains images Aileron11 : I would like to say “if isn’t Boeing I aint going” so now you all know I am Boeing fan
43 Brons2 : That would be quite a development. Don't think it will happen though. Were he to be fired, I don't think he would have to honor a no-compete agreemen
44 Post contains images Drewfly : Boeing appears to be doing quite well without someone like him. I can't imagine Leahy stepping foot into Boeing headquarters, unescorted that is.
45 MEA : The article is written by Geoffrey Thomas who is pro Boeing and will always blow their trumpet. If you have a look at any of his articles you will fin
46 Post contains images N328KF : If he was, he could still be right!
47 Sq212 : I agree that he is a pro Boeing guy. And many of his prediction is right. His latest remark in ATWOnline: "Cathay played a major supporting role for
48 Dhefty : Hmmm. I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you here MEA. Mr. Thomas seems to be even-handed with regard to Airbus and Boeing if you read his many
49 Scbriml : When was Airbus accused of "dumping" aircraft, and by whom? How do you explain record profits?
50 Shenzhen : I believe that this was floated back when United made their big order for the A320s, but nothing came of it. By whom.. I think "maybe" by some US Con
51 Freedom4all : Another anti-US statement from someone from Europe....what a big surprise considering the recent events in your our own country I really don't think
52 Cruiser : Welcome to my RR list. I think that you have this spot on. There is a problem at Airbus, and I am not one to judge what it is. Boeing recently went t
53 Jetfuel : Why are people thinking the 748 is not in the race? You wait and see. QF need direct replacemnets for 744 aircraft that are going to be 20 year old by
54 Coa747 : Mr Leahy seems to be Airbus's biggest problem right now. If he would shut his mouth and stop making rediculous statements and promises then maybe cust
55 Post contains images Lumberton : No, with all respect, Wingman, this ain't going to happen in a million years. I'm not going to predict who will win the 787/350 contest at QF, but Le
56 Atmx2000 : Um, I think their problems are not on the sales side. Leahy maybe a big mouth, but he's doing all he can with what he is given.
57 Sebolino : ... and the best year ever for Airbus. People at Airbus have exactly zero reasons to be sad.
58 N328KF : No, Airbus' biggest problem is a product line that leaves something to be desired (as evidenced by recent orders) in the 200 to 450 seat range.
59 N79969 : I agree with this one. Leahy must work with whatever the engineers design and build. He is an obnoxious guy but I think most everyone must (albeit gr
60 N79969 : Yeah right...I am sure they are very happy at Tolouse amidst the beatings they have just received at Dubai and Hong Kong. At least make an attempt to
61 Alitalia744 : I'm right there with ya, and now we can say that includes all the tanks built by MDD!
62 N328KF : The high volume of sales at Airbus, and the fact that they appear to not be too far behind as far as the raw number of airframes sold this year is co
63 Longhaulheavy : Looks like Boeing is keenly following one of the cardinal rules of business: under-promise and over-deliver.
64 Post contains links Sjoerd : This article appeared on the Airbus website today, might have something to do with an upcoming order... http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...eleases
65 Joni : Good point Keesje, although frankly you could tell just by reading the quotes in the thread-starter that the author was in bed with Boeing. I find yo
66 RJ111 : The problem is the A346 seems a vastly a makeshift design. You only have too look at how long and thin it is to see that. From what i can see, Airbus
67 N328KF : I was not saying that Airbus makes a practice of dumping (though some, above, did.) I was stating that Airbus in particular (though it applies to nei
68 N79969 : Nonsense. Airbus dug itself into a hole. The press is reporting it. That does not put the reporter in anyone's camp.
69 N60659 : It appears that the following quotes from the article escaped your attention: "Boeing suffered from a bout of pricing arrogance through 2003 and 2004
70 David31998 : Some of the Airbus critics in this thread are overreaching. Boeing's 787/777 lineup is impressive and clearly has the lead in the mid-range market. Bu
71 RJ111 : N60659, i don't really care whether that article is biased or not. But if you are biased and you know it - in all walks of life not just avaition - It
72 JetMaster : Which are you referring to? SIA's smallest plane is the B772ER - still much larger than EK's A313 and B332. EK has continuously increased frequencies
73 N60659 : While I agree with that, in principle, it is also possible that "bias is in the mind of the beholder" (and I am not singling anyone out here). Much o
74 Post contains images OzGlobal : Quite right, it doesn't. The author takes care of that himself with his title, "co-author of Boeing 787 Dreamliner - Flying Redefined"
75 N328KF : Udo, are you blind? Have you not been reading the news the past year or so about subsidies to Airbus? Obviously that would imply that their finances
76 N79969 : How? Because he wrote a book about an airplane and found that it would (gasp) actually introduce revolutionary changes? There is nothing to truly sug
77 Post contains images JetMaster : "Obviously" and "imply" are interesting terms which you use in that context... And you still don't have a source which your general statement is base
78 Post contains images AeroPiggot : I am willing to go out on the limb here and make a prediction on the Qantas order. I believe that they will order the 777LR and 777-300ER, but I also
79 Astuteman : A strange comment to make, particularly in the context of investigations into dumping. I think it's abundantly clear to anyone who is interested that
80 Ken777 : Could be possible if Airbus comes in at a very low price, but I think the problems QF had with using an Airbus on the the CitiFlyer (problems with qu
81 AeroPiggot : I agree, a fair and balance comparison between the two airplanes, should give us A.netters a lot to talk about. I am really interested to know how th
82 KL808 : Quick question Why order the B777 now when you didn't seem to be interested with it from the very begining? Drew
83 N328KF : How funny that you should say that. QF was part of the customer group that Boeing worked very closely with to define the 777. Out of the whole group,
84 Post contains images SthPacific787 : I don't agree with this re the 350's, at least not entirely. The QF RFP includes a replacement for the Boeing 763 used both domestically and medium-h
85 Post contains links WestWing : Here is an interesting quote from this reuters item with dateline Dec 03. "Qantas Chief Executive Geoff Dixon said management had not decided on a fin
86 NAV20 : "Have you made a final decision?" is a pretty standard "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question in 'journalese'. Intended to provide an angle. I
87 Antares : I thought Dixon's performance in the teleivsed interview on Inside Business on the ABC was fascinating, and I'd take it at face value. Its awfully clo
88 WestWing : Antares: Did Dixon actually use the words "we have not decided" in the interview or is that the Reuters reporter's interpretation of what Dixon meant.
89 Post contains images NAV20 : Fair enough, WestWing - but 'No' has the merit of being shorter. I also take Antares' point - a tender process ain't over till it's over. Puts me in m
90 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Damn this is getting nail biting....its like the whole EK A350 ordeal..but even bigger...... My feeling is though that the 777 will win over the A340'
91 Post contains links ANstar : http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...USTRALIA-QANTAS.xml&archived=False Article above.
92 Geoffthomas : Just for the record, I am also co-writing two books on Airbus aircraft. One is an A380 book and the other a pictorial study tracing the technological
93 Atmx2000 : Welcome! Wow, an aviation journalist posting under his own name on A.net. Maybe a certain other journalist will be shamed into revealing his identity
94 Post contains images Gemuser : Great! An actual report/author responds! Love him or hate him thats REALLY close author/reader relationship. Welcombe Geoff, may we see many more pos
95 Geoffthomas : Tks for the welcome. I think its important to post under my name so there is no hidden agenda. Hope I have something useful to contribute from time to
96 N60659 : Geoff, I extend my hearty welcome as well. I am sure you will help elevate the level of dialogue here with your unique insight. Hope to read more of y
97 Post contains images NAV20 : Good morning Geoff, welcome! Do you happen to know whether Qantas are planning a press conference and/or post-Board Meeting press release today; and i
98 Geoffthomas : My understanding is that the board meeting is Wednesday Dec 7 and that there will be either an announcement after the stock exchange closes or more li
99 NorCal : Do you have any more info than we do? If you are allowed to answer, any idea which way this will swing?
100 N79969 : It is good to have a professional journalist here. I look forward to reading your comments in the future.
101 Post contains images N328KF : Was that a stab at Zeus419?
102 Post contains images NAV20 : I think Geoff's original article gives a pretty good idea of which way he thinks it will swing, Norcal.   As a matter of interest, the orders may no
103 Post contains images Ikramerica : Do you still think him biased considering he is now writing two Airbus books? Or to be objective must you only write about Airbus? Can one be unbiase
104 Geoffthomas : Geoff Dixon would make a real good poker player and he certainly playing his cards close. The 777/787 is a clear winner from the operational/marketing
105 N328KF : Leery in what sense? Leery in the sense that they are worried that NZ got a competitive product, or leery in the sense that they don't want the same
106 Geoffthomas : Leery that they are a much more potent force. They now have better in-flight product than Qantas and better aircraft suited to where the market is and
107 NAV20 : N328KF, to those of us who don't live in Sydney, Qantas has always seemed pretty Sydney-centric. Its competitors often offer people in other cities be
108 Radelow : Welcome Geoff. Although I don't post that much your insight will be a valuable addition to this website. Hopefully the politikers here won't drive you
109 RichardJF : the 787 would seem a very nice aircraft for QF CNS-LAX 3W BNE-LAX daily CBR-LAX 3W SYD-LAX 2 daily SYD-SFO daily MEL-LAX daily MEL-SFO daily ADL-LAX
110 Confuscius : "the 787 would seem a very nice aircraft for QF CNS-LAX 3W BNE-LAX daily CBR-LAX 3W SYD-LAX 2 daily SYD-SFO daily MEL-LAX daily MEL-SFO daily ADL-LAX
111 Gigneil : It's 3:30 pm in Sydney now... craving some news. NS
112 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Welcome to the board GT...I read your atricles on atwonline.com all the time..
113 Post contains images N328KF : No, that would be ASP-MCI 1x daily.
114 Post contains images 11Bravo : It is 3:30 pm, Tuesday Dec. 6th. The board meeting is on the 7th. We won't hear anything for another 24 hours or so.
115 RichardJF : . This would be what really works for QF, not things like SYD-DFW which would be largely pointless. The A380 at Qantas is a "What were they thinking a
116 Ken777 : It would seem to me (as a lowly pax) that the directors would have had a lot of information already provided on the offers as well as a lot of analysi
117 NAV20 : Ken777, I agree entirely that the decisions have probably already largely been made, and canvassed with the Board. But that shouldn't (and won't) stop
118 Kaitak : Absolutely; the last message QF wants to give to either side is that the deal is done and dusted, particularly not to let Boeing (or Airbus) think the
119 Post contains links Aussie747 : You appear right on the money according to the following article, and it seems to favour Boeing. http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=331
120 Post contains links NAV20 : This is the ABC's 24-hour radio news service. They usually have headlines at 15-minute intervals, and a business summary on the dot of 6.00 p.m., so I
121 N1786b : I'm sure you will... Welcome GT! - n1786b
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