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Another Las Vegas Airport In The Works?  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3105 posts, RR: 10
Posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8599 times:

Courtesy: San Bernardino Sun

Proposed Las Vegas Airport Stirs Environmental Concerns

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=4423

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2435 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8536 times:

Seems silly. Sounds like another MidAmerica (KBLV) fiasco- an airport no one will want to use. Probably some politician hoping for a big project in his district.

I would certainly think LAS has some room to expand.



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4396 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8516 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

More info can also be found here:
http://www.mccarran.com/04_05_CurProjects.asp

Some issues I see are:
1. Trying to get someone to serve that new airport, everyone will want to serve the current LAS, because it is much closer to the strip.

2. Traffic is already a nightmare on Friday nights on I-15, adding a whole bunch of flights into the the new Ivanpah airport (current name for the new airport) and people trying to get to Vegas will be really bad, considering I-15 is the only viable option.

3. Even when traffic is good, your looking at a hour to an hour and a half drive or so to the proposed location, where as Mccarran is literally 5 minutes from the strip.

I'd rather see the current LAS expand, however they simply are pretty well landlocked and it would take a massive amount of money to expand. A quick look at flytecomm shows the shear number of flights (mostly mainline) that come into Vegas. Also with Allegiant expanding quite rapidly and WN a slow but steady expansion there (WN has over 200 daily departures out of LAS, making it the busiest WN city in terms of flights, and probably passengers too) they are creating new low fare demand (obviously) so passenger numbers keep going up a lot.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8513 times:

They have been planning Ivanapah for the last 5 or 6 years now, only they're doing a very slow and meticulous job of it. I believe the original idea was to move all the cargo flights to there by 2008, but they haven't even broke ground on it. They also wanted to put a light rail service in (perhaps tie in the existing monorail that's paritially built on the strip to the new airport), but that hasn't been established. But then again, I've also heard all sorts of expansion projects for McCarran (still the 4th wing of the D gates needs to be built, in addition to the construction of a new intl terminal just NE of the existing cargo plant). Another example of the Las Vegas city planners falling behind in terms of keeping up with the growth of the city

User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8495 times:

FOURTEEN MILLION DOLLARS JUST FOR AN ENVIRONMENTAL STUDY????
Someone is milking us big time. That's a joke!.
But we all know the snakes an Gila Monsters come before people,don't we?

As Yakoff Smirnoff used to say..
"What a country!!!"
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5175 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8448 times:

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 1):
Seems silly. Sounds like another MidAmerica (KBLV) fiasco- an airport no one will want to use. Probably some politician hoping for a big project in his district.

I would certainly think LAS has some room to expand.

At first you'd think that (as did I)--but LAS really has no room to expand out of their current geography; its pretty much locked in by development. Carriers will certainly serve Ivanpah--but you'd initially see the mainline carriers add a couple of flights to their hubs and charters.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26450 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8430 times:

You know, I don't really see why there are issues with LAS anyway. They are already 4 long runways (including one over 14,000 feet) and the airport is on plenty of land. In some ways, the cavernous terminals with very long walks could easily be redesigned to accomidate incresed passenger traffic, along with large areas of under used land (namely the old boneyard that doesn't really house anything anymore). To add to this, landing fees for small GA aircraft have sharply risen in recent years and that has combined with easier airspace into Henderson to move GA traffic out.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8424 times:

Well, as far as expanding within McCarran, the best hope they have is to wipe out the executive jet terminal on the west side of the property and build a new terminal there (perhaps the intl, with an underground train to connect), and send all those jets to Henderson Airport or NLV airport. Of course, that would also involve moving the legendary JANET airlines (I should start a whole new thread on them, for those who know - it's red stripe! Hooray 737-2s!) to another site (I would suggest Nellis, keep all the gov't bs nice and together in the same neighborhood). The existing plan for the new intl terminal calls for the complete rerouting of Russel Rd (a very significant feeder road for the residents of the east side) and the wiping out of some old houses around that road. I too, perfer to stay at the existing site (besides the proximity to the strip, don't you just love taking off 25R at night and right away you get the Luxor light right below you?) and I only live 15 min away currently. But I just don't see how in 15-20 years from now McCarran is going to be able to meet demand. We're already short of gates for HP for our night flight operation (56 depts in about an 1 1/2) and have been borrowing C gates from WN.

User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5175 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8406 times:

A bit off-topic--but has WN started ops from the B concourse? Has that bridge been completed?


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineAmhilde From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 643 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8404 times:

Part of the problem with public projects in Vegas too are all the levels of interest and the particular power that the casino and entertainment interests hold. That damn monorail project is such a debacle because no one wants it going to their competitor, even though it would benefit all on the whole. They would need some form of transport out there because I-15 IS a mess and it gets worse every year. I thought there had been some talk of linking this up with the other pie-in-the-sky project of rail service to LA. BTW, worries about the environment dont seem to have stopped people down there in the past- doubt it would stop them now.


Hang on tightly, Let go lightly
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8391 times:

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 9):
A bit off-topic--but has WN started ops from the B concourse? Has that bridge been completed?

During the daytime, they use gate B10 and there's a shuttle bus between C23 and B15 that takes pax and crew back and forth.

[Edited 2005-12-01 21:00:04]

User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8368 times:

Not to mention all the high rise condos being built in the last few years along the strip, that's only screwed up traffic even more. Vegas is starting to go verticle in growth and the infrastructure is not there to handle it

User currently onlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3945 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8329 times:
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yes they want all carriers except HP/WN to move south............then install a high speed bullet train to the strip.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4396 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8328 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
You know, I don't really see why there are issues with LAS anyway. They are already 4 long runways (including one over 14,000 feet) and the airport is on plenty of land.

The issues with LAS are:

Not enough gates
Traffic
At some points in the day the runway usage is maxed out, all though they could probably use the the north and south runways more if they really tryed.
The airport doesn't have any land to expand
Security

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 11):
Not to mention all the high rise condos being built in the last few years along the strip, that's only screwed up traffic even more. Vegas is starting to go verticle in growth and the infrastructure is not there to handle it

 checkmark 



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineAmhilde From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 643 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8321 times:

Most of those condos are timeshares though, arent they? Or secondary homes? Would those "residents" keep permanent cars there?


Hang on tightly, Let go lightly
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8317 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 12):
then install a high speed bullet train to the strip

That's probably not gonna happen unless they can figure out a way to continue that track all the way to LA


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5175 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8306 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 12):
yes they want all carriers except HP/WN to move south............then install a high speed bullet train to the strip.

LOL--what kind of s**t is that! I can see what discussion topic will dominate this board in 2009.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8294 times:

Quoting Amhilde (Reply 14):
Most of those condos are timeshares though, arent they? Or secondary homes? Would those "residents" keep permanent cars there?

Not necessarily timeshares, but yes, secondary homes (probably a lot of snowbirds). But even if they don't keep a car there full time, they'll probably use one when they do reside there. Our bus system is ok, but people who own those places won't use the bus. We have no light rail system (the monorail is only good for tourists and conventioneers going from hotel to hotel or to a convention center), and although we are abundant in taxis, they get expensive after awhile and provide plenty of congestion in their own right. Many of these condos are empty since they are just an investment but many are occupied and the logistics involving that are just mindboggling. We were 10 years overdue on our city belt loop and it's still not even complete.


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3105 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8194 times:

Just in a general sense with all the flights that Southwest has and Allegiant is adding hasn't that caused additional crunch or not?

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26450 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8106 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 15):
That's probably not gonna happen unless they can figure out a way to continue that track all the way to LA

That is in the works. There is no figuring needed. There is already a rail ROW along the 15

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 13):
Not enough gates

There are still expansion plans in the works

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 13):
Traffic

Monorail

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 13):
At some points in the day the runway usage is maxed out, all though they could probably use the the north and south runways more if they really tryed.

The problem is that they don't use the north-south runways nearly enough. If they made better use of what they have, they could deal with traffic much better

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 13):
The airport doesn't have any land to expand

But it makes poor use of its own land

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 13):
Security

How is that an issue? There are tons of airports close to metro areas.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8078 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 13):
At some points in the day the runway usage is maxed out,

It's still no Newark, Philly, O'Hare, etc. though.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 18):
Allegiant is adding hasn't that caused additional crunch or not?

Allegiant's additions to LAS aren't really a drop in the bucket in the big picture of HP/WN.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 15):

That's probably not gonna happen unless they can figure out a way to continue that track all the way to LA

There's a decent amount of terrain in the way there. Trains aren't big fans of grades over 2% or so.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13047 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7979 times:
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Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 3):
They have been planning Ivanapah for the last 5 or 6 years now, only they're doing a very slow and meticulous job of it.

That's because they're planning huge! 6 runways, etc.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 16):
Quoting CALMSP (Reply 12):
yes they want all carriers except HP/WN to move south............then install a high speed bullet train to the strip.

LOL--what kind of s**t is that! I can see what discussion topic will dominate this board in 2009.

 rotfl  Ok, the whole reason behind Ivanpah is that in 2011 to 2020 (depending on assumptions) LAS will be absolutely maxed out. Initially, Ivanpah will start out small, maybe as a business jet destination. But the long term plan is for it to be the center of a new downtown, in some was similar to IAD. Use google earth to look around IAD, its built up now.

I'm just glad to see a city doing long term planning a la DEN. By securing an option for the land early, with a pre-approved environmental plan... when the airport is needed, it will grow quick!  bigthumbsup  Do also recall that when the airport is built it will be with houses, casinos, and a mini-city. This project isn't for the timid. I think it will work, but will need decades to play out.

Although, it is very ambitious for a metropolitan area with a population just about to break 2 million...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineVegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7947 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 21):

I'm just glad to see a city doing long term planning a la DEN. By securing an option for the land early, with a pre-approved environmental plan... when the airport is needed, it will grow quick! bigthumbsup Do also recall that when the airport is built it will be with houses, casinos, and a mini-city. This project isn't for the timid. I think it will work, but will need decades to play out.

Although, it is very ambitious for a metropolitan area with a population just about to break 2 million...

This is one of the few times where planners are really looking ahead in Vegas, the other being the Beltway, currently we are just under 2 mil. people metro area, with close to 44 million per year, projected for 2005, flying through LAS. The brilliant minds that predict these sorts of things say Vegas will have 3 million people in the metro area within 20 years. I feel that is a very conservative guess, the need for a second major airport will become necessary if, based on the above figures, close to 65 million people a year will be flying through LAS. We are one of the fastest growing metro areas in the country.


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7917 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 20):
It's still no Newark, Philly, O'Hare, etc. though.

You're right, LAS isn't. It's busier than those except O'Hare.

In 2004 LAS ranked 11th busiest in the world, and 6th busiest in the US behind Atlanta, Chicago, LAX, Dallas, and Denver, and ahead of PHX, JFK, and MSP.

LAS handled 41.4 million passengers in 2004. EWR had 31.9 million (22nd overall), and PHL had 28.5 million (30th overall). That was a 14% increase over 2003, and 2005 should see another large increase, possibly putting it into 9th place worldwide above Denver (42.3 million) and Amsterdam (42.5 million)

As a pilot based in LAS, I can tell you from close personal experience that the airport is getting near its saturation point. Just because it has four runways doesn't mean it is better at handling traffic than some airports with fewer runways. LAS sits down in a bowl, and you can't land to the south in bad weather - the mountains are in the way of any possible ILS approach path. You can't land simultaneously on parallel runways either except in nice daytime weather - they're too close together.

Yes, things are getting a little crowded in the terminals, but the big thing holding back any more expansion is the runway layout and the lack of room for more.

I like being based in LAS, but I can see that if there is more growth, a new airport will be needed.

HAL

[Edited 2005-12-02 01:19:31]

[Edited 2005-12-02 01:20:26]

[Edited 2005-12-02 01:24:14]


One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineAC773 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7893 times:

Personally, I'd like to see either a new airport being built or a thorough renovation of the existing one. I was surprised to see how crummy LAS was last time I visited.


Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
25 Vegasplanes : Just curious, what gate area are you referring to. "D" gates just got done with expansion, the original terminal was completed in 1998, "C" gates und
26 HAL : He's probably talking about the currently 'under construction' A & B gates for HP. They are old and showing their age - low ceilings, fading carpets
27 HPLASOps : Currently, T2 gate 1 is shut down due to resurfacing the ramp around that area (as well as A20-A23 - gates HP desperately needs right now). Our airli
28 Post contains images Amhilde : HPLASOps- I went to high school in Vegas and my parents are still down there- thats one town that needs to sort out some sort of transport planning an
29 Tornado82 : I was speaking delay-wise. Although I guess that speaks more to the great weather at LAS as compared to ORD/EWR/PHL.
30 HPLASOps : Amhilde I agree with you on everything. I grew up in LAS (moved here when I was 6, my dad was born and raised here) so I'm familiar with the old days
31 HPLASOps : Vegas isn't perfect weather all the time. During July and August, the afternoon monsoons cause havoc with ATC delays (one night we had 20 flights arr
32 Post contains images Tornado82 : I know... but comparatively speaking. Right now its 34, breezy, and flurrying here. I'll take LAS' weather tonight.
33 Vegasplanes : Thanks for the info., only have been through T2 once, in July on MX, not a bad terminal, apparently there is some issues with gate 1. As for "A" and
34 HPLASOps : If McCarran wanted to get hardcore serious about better utilizing the space for the gates, the could do a four prong gate system with a connecting ha
35 Iowaman : Not enough. Which is pretty pathetic at the moment. I was refering to security lines, I should of been more clear. The good thing is water consumptio
36 Crownvic : HAL...You are so correct...The runways are the main problem at LAS. With 1R/19L closed for rebuilding, I anticipate big problems this winter when Nort
37 Post contains images N1120A : Did they change the name again? First it was Stateline, then it was Primm, is it now Ivanapah? Well, stop having Mesa fly so damn many for you then
38 HPLASOps : You're right, Stateline was the original name, then Primm (after the developer responsible for the first casinos out there), but Ivanapah refers to t
39 HPLASOps : What's so wrong with the runways? Lots of airports use the dual runway system where outside is landing, inside is departure. I thought the 4 runways
40 Post contains images Iowaman : I fail to see the need to operate CRJ's between SAN and LAX to LAS. Those destinations are huge and already have multiple mainline frequency. The CRJ
41 HAL : The biggest problem is that they are intersecting. I can't count the number of times I've been cleared into position on 25R and told to hold while on
42 Post contains images Vegasplanes : What's the odds they will make Sunset Road the new and improved 25L, renaming the prior 25L to 25C. At least there would be 3 non-intersecting runway
43 HPLASOps : We have about 10 flights a day servicing LAS-LAX and about 6 or 7 flights servicing LAS-SAN. Most of those are mainline aircraft, but a few are rjs.
44 HPLASOps : Then where are all you aircraft photographers gonna perch? Sunset Rd will not be demolished, not as long as I have something to say about it. When I
45 Post contains images Vegasplanes : Yeah I hear that, I was being sarcastic with the first post, hence the .
46 Post contains links Tjwgrr : How 'bout this..... (sounds like a pipe dream, I know) Move Nellis out to Ivanapah. Nellis, with two 10000+ foot runways, becomes second Vegas commerc
47 Tornado82 : How do mainline aircraft stress an airfield system even more than RJs? RJ's take more runway than something like a 73G at times (look at MDW) and in
48 HPLASOps : That's a terrible idea. Nellis is in a ghetto neighboorhood with horrible traffic options for getting in and out of it (you think McCarran's bad, try
49 Tornado82 : Which is why I said fly RJ's to DAL. You can fly a plane under 56 seats anywhere you please. A CRJ-200 is legal to go anywhere it's got the legs to m
50 HPLASOps : Since WN seems content picking apart the Wrong Admendment one piece at a time, I'm sure the next phase will be changing the wording of the exemptions
51 Amhilde : Nellis... *shudder* Hey HPLASOps- here is a question for you. I was booking my Christmas tickets (RNO-LAS) the other week, and I check you guys first
52 HPLASOps : Amhilde, I'm just as dissapointed that we're down to 1 Airbus a day from LAS RNO (departs Las at 1208, and then departs RNO at 1430 I believe) and 1 R
53 Crownvic : Vegasplanes...I know your kidding about the Sunset Rd. option, but even if it could be done, it still would not solve the problems. When you're at 45
54 HPLASOps : I realize the runways intersect, but is this possible: use both 1R and 7L, except have aircraft start the take off on 7L in front of 1R. If 25R/7L is
55 Goldenshield : Regardless of the length of the takeoff roll, traffic that is crossing the departure runway cannot cross that runway until the traffic has passed, no
56 HAL : Yes, it is possible, but the winds very rarely allow it. In LAS the winds are almost always out of the west or southwest, which is why we use the 25'
57 Vegasplanes : Here's a question for you all out there, would the "new" airport at Ivanpah affect departures off of the 19's in particular, and LAS in general? Seems
58 HPLASOps : Interesting question, but I think there's enough of a SW-NE tilt to 19/1 that flight traffic on that runway would miss Ivanapah by perhaps 3 or 4 mil
59 Crownvic : Traffic has been turning south for several years now. Rumor has it that the wealthy subdivision of Spanish Trails went ballistic with Clark County wh
60 N200WN : The problem is, I just don't think it would hurt very much. With the W/A in place it's not a very big market for WN right now. I know that you (Torna
61 Tornado82 : And as is the case with CO's 757's Transatlantic from EWR to get direct flights VS having to connect places... The average Joe doesn't know the diffe
62 N200WN : Well the point of my point was that DAL-LAS is not a big market for WN because of the thru ticketing restrictions in the W/A. HP adding service to DAL
63 HPLASOps : If that's true (it may or may not be, LAS-SAT is typically a 3-4 night/week flight, and well, throughout December, there's no consistenty to what's o
64 SirOmega : My 2c on LAS.... 53M as an expected maximum pax figure is really pushing it. I see flight reports from HAL and Seven3Seven in the TR forum talking abo
65 HPLASOps : Although generally I'm in favor of HP flying to the lower cost airport to compete with WN, I don't see DFW/DAL happening like that. DFW is one of our
66 Amhilde : I work in the same office as the state demographer and had a chat with him on Friday for a little while, and he mentioned that his population forecast
67 N200WN : Did Southwest do something personal to you guys that you're not telling us about? Sounds like you're seeking some kind of revenge. Also, I haven't bee
68 HPLASOps : No, just like to promote healthy competition as opposed to the healthy monopolies that Herb K and the gang perfers. I believe it's a women's prison o
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