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DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777  
User currently offlineJumboJet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6599 times:

Call me a closet seat mapper checker outer, but in looking at the DL JFK to FRA route which is flown on a 763, seating 204 persons, the flights are almost always, if not all the time sold out. Especially the month of December load factors are very high. Knowing that the holiday travel back to Frankfurt is mostly the reason for this, even loads in Jan and Feb are already high. Why not change this flight to a 777 (seating 268) or at least ad another 763? I know you just can't pop 777's out of thin air but look at ATL to FRA, they got two daily flights to FRA and they both do rather well. I think the NYC to FRA market can handle it. What do you think?

steve

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6548 times:

Try answering your own question. Where does DL have an extra 777 sitting around that isn't already flying high capacity/high yielding routes just as packed as JFK-Frankfurt? I doubt you'll find one.

Ah, yes, life is a series of tough choices.


User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6536 times:

Delta has 8 777's in its fleet. That's it. And there is no chance they will get any more for a while. These planes are assigned to routes where the airline makes money, or there is demand to warrant a large aircraft. They will use the 777 on high density routes (Ireland, Italy) in Summer time, and where they have Sky Team partners.

2 of the 777's are dedicated to ATL-NRT.

JFK-FRA is not a premier route for DL any longer. They don't have a hub there and there is no connecting traffic.


User currently offlineTrevD From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 327 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6455 times:

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
Call me a closet seat mapper checker outer, but in looking at the DL JFK to FRA route which is flown on a 763, seating 204 persons, the flights are almost always, if not all the time sold out. Especially the month of December load factors are very high. Knowing that the holiday travel back to Frankfurt is mostly the reason for this, even loads in Jan and Feb are already high. Why not change this flight to a 777 (seating 268) or at least ad another 763? I know you just can't pop 777's out of thin air but look at ATL to FRA, they got two daily flights to FRA and they both do rather well. I think the NYC to FRA market can handle it. What do you think?

steve

The route may well be able to justify the higher loads, but the yield profile (average revenue) is probably terrible. Fares from the NE US ( NY, Boston, EWR, etc...) have always been very low. So if you have the incremental capacity, it's not advantageous to deploy it where your profit earning potential is so limited...

Trev


User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6371 times:

Yeah, too many other places where a 777 is a good choice AND focus on ATL for the 777 for mx reasons. I'm surprised CVG is keeping the 777 CVG-CDG.

Besides if the 763 is making money on it, keep it! Get the new interior on all the 763-int'l a/c and DL will be in good shape on the route!



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6352 times:

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
DL JFK to FRA route which is flown on a 763, seating 204 persons, the flights are almost always, if not all the time sold out

As mentioned JFK-FRA is not a major route for DL anymore, keep in mind that AA has tried JFK-FRA on a couple different occasions over the past 10-15 years and have never been able to make it a profitable endeavor. There might be fannies in the seats but it does not mean they are making money on them, big misconception load factors "always" = profit.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21505 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6295 times:

EWR-FRA is nice and full on the CO 772, so if you want to fly a 772 to FRA, try that one.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offline9V-SPF From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1375 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6272 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
EWR-FRA is nice and full on the CO 772, so if you want to fly a 772 to FRA, try that one.

It´s a 764 during the winter. I agree that CO should be preferred on the FRA-NYC route...nicer airplane, better connections at EWR, avoiding JFK immigration...


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21505 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6259 times:

Quoting 9V-SPF (Reply 7):
It´s a 764 during the winter.

Hmm. Maybe the airlines know something about the loads that Jumbo doesn't...

Though COs 764 is pretty much the same as their 777 inside, better seating in some cases.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4008 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6231 times:

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
or at least ad another 763?

Delta has no large planes available to increase flying in prime international business markets because the large planes are consumed flying tourists to Venice and Orlando. Big grin


User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6180 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 9):
Delta has no large planes available to increase flying in prime international business markets because the large planes are consumed flying tourists to Venice and Orlando.

Yes in the summer there are alot of tourists, but remember there are also 2 US military bases within 100 miles of VCE. The military usually pays the mid to higher fares on flights...which is an excellent money maker for the airlines. There are also very many business travelers that fly from VCE to JFK because of the very strong economy the 'Veneto' region has. So its not all leisure travel...not even close to what it is on the Florida routes!!!


User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6154 times:

Quoting TrevD (Reply 3):
The route may well be able to justify the higher loads, but the yield profile (average revenue) is probably terrible. Fares from the NE US ( NY, Boston, EWR, etc...) have always been very low. So if you have the incremental capacity, it's not advantageous to deploy it where your profit earning potential is so limited...

The yields from Germany to the U.S. in economy class are a disaster. Although in other European countries (UK & France) economy fares are very low as well, business class yields are high and compensate such low fares. In Germany, economy is very low and business class is just average.

In addition to this, all the new DL flights to Germany scheduled for next year (plus competition from CO) will make the yields ever worse.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6052 times:

the flights maybe mostly full, but do not forget, DL is always the cheapest option from and to JFK on that route, even much more cheaper than choosing a flight via another hub.

so I do not see to increase the flight to 777



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 2):
2 of the 777's are dedicated to ATL-NRT.

Will someone post all the 777 routes that DL uses its 8 frames on.

Is CVG-CDG, 1 a/c?

Regards.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4895 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5995 times:
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JFK-FRA is usually only packed in the back. The J cabin, depending on seasons and days of week are not that easy to fill as there is very stiff competition on the route from the LH/UA juggernaut. I usually use miles or certificates to upgrade on DL transatlantic, and JFK-FRA and JFK-AMS are usually the two easiest routes out of JFK on DL to upgrade on. That should tell you something....

User currently offlineRemymartin11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 67 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5955 times:

Why would anyone want to fly DL JFK-FRA when Lufthansa has such a superior product. Grinstein and his minions are CLUELESS.

User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3091 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5861 times:

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 13):
Will someone post all the 777 routes that DL uses its 8 frames on.

ATL-LGW
ATL-CDG
ATL-FRA
ATL-NRT
ATL-TLV*
ATL-LAX

CVG-CDG

*Slated to begin in March 2005.

All flights use only one plane, except ATL-NRT which currently requires two planes. ATL-TLV will be rotated through NRT-ATL-TLV-ATL-NRT in order to increase utilization and only require 3 planes for the route.

This means one of the European routes will have to lose a 777 frequency. I suppose that when the 764's come online (with BizE), this won't be much of an issue. Maybe DL will try ATL-LGW with the 764.


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3091 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5857 times:

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 15):
Why would anyone want to fly DL JFK-FRA when Lufthansa has such a superior product. Grinstein and his minions are CLUELESS.

People would want to fly DL because the NYC area has a high percentage of DL-loyal flyers and as well as the connecting opportunities at JFK.

That said, if I were flying the route, I'd probably pick Singapore Air.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32699 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5835 times:

Quoting OOer (Reply 10):
Yes in the summer there are alot of tourists, but remember there are also 2 US military bases within 100 miles of VCE. The military usually pays the mid to higher fares on flights...which is an excellent money maker for the airlines. There are also very many business travelers that fly from VCE to JFK because of the very strong economy the 'Veneto' region has. So its not all leisure travel.

Military traffic often pays pre-agreed rates which are profitable, but do not produce heavy margins. The reason Venice is a money maker is because the type of tourist that goes to Venice is usually high-income, and many will splurge to fly in the premium cabins. In addition, many Italy tour groups start or end in Venice, which helps fill the Y cabin. Similar situation with Nice.



a.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

A couple of things to consider:

- DL simply does not have an extra 777 to dedicate to the JFK-FRA route.

-FRA is Star Alliance territory - DL is a SkyTeam member.

-LH has multiple frequencies on the JFK-FRA route offerning pax more choice (and probably better service).

-SQ has a daily 744 on the JFK-FRA route (which continues to SIN). SQ does well with the JFK-FRA segment, so well, in fact, that SQ launched the nonstop NYC-SIN flight from EWR so that it could keep the JFK-FRA-SIN service in place.

-CO flies either a 777 or 764 on its EWR-FRA service....but CO has the advantage of its very powerful EWR hub on its side, plus remember that the EWR-FRA flight is CO's only flight to FRA.....so the EWR-FRA segment attracts a higher percentage of connecting pax including a good number that originate at IAH. (DL has service to FRA from its other hubs as well as its JFK gateway).


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5806 times:

Now DL is flying the 764 transatlantically it should mean services like JFK-FRA gets the bigger aircraft.

It will be interesting to see how customer acceptance pans out, as CO regulars I know often tell me that their 764 international product is every bit as good as the 772ER. And there is more money to be made international flying.

The only drawback will be whether the 764 can carry any freight on the route. The LD3 and weights issues would come into play as the 764 is a people carrier rather than a mixed operation jet like the much more capable 772ER.


User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5799 times:

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 16):
ATL-LGW
ATL-CDG
ATL-FRA
ATL-NRT
ATL-TLV*
ATL-LAX

CVG-CDG

*Slated to begin in March 2005.

All flights use only one plane, except ATL-NRT which currently requires two planes. ATL-TLV will be rotated through NRT-ATL-TLV-ATL-NRT in order to increase utilization and only require 3 planes for the route.

This means one of the European routes will have to lose a 777 frequency. I suppose that when the 764's come online (with BizE), this won't be much of an issue. Maybe DL will try ATL-LGW with the 764.

That was a hell of a reply! Great information, thanks a lot for that!

Patrick


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4895 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5751 times:
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Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 15):
Why would anyone want to fly DL JFK-FRA when Lufthansa has such a superior product. Grinstein and his minions are CLUELESS.

Umm, because if you get on the 'wrong' LH a/c between JFK and FRA, you will be stuck in an old Business Class seat that is much worse than DL's BusinessElite seat, or be crammed in just-as-horrible, if not worse Y seats in the back (LH405/404 747-400). And no, there is no PTV in Y on all of the LH 744s either....


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3471 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5735 times:

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 2):
JFK-FRA is not a premier route for DL any longer. They don't have a hub there and there is no connecting traffic.

DL pretty much calls JFK a hub. In various press releases they call it "Delta's JFK hub," also what are you talking about with no connecting traffic?

From JFK DL serves: SEA, SFO, LAX, LAS, SLC, SAT, AUS, STL, ORD, IND, CVG, CMH, SDF, BNA, ATL, MLB, JAX, MCO, TPA, FLL, PBI, MIA, CLT, RDU, ORF, DCA, IAD, BWI, PIT, BOS, and YYZ. They also serve MEX, NAS, STI, SDQ, and SJU in the Caribbean and Mexico. I'd consider that connecting traffic.

Jeremy


User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5726 times:

I think people think that what makes the foreign carriers so attractive, especially in Y class is the fact that you get free beer. I must admit, I loved this little amenity when I flew Virgin Atlantic JFK to LHR. Other then that, there wasn't anything different between that and a Delta coach flight over the pond. And seriously, how much free beer do you think you will drink on one of these flights? Its not like an open bar at your favorite watering hole. And of course, there's waiting for the F/A's to come around and serve you. BLAH, I'll take Delta and their F/A's any day of the week.

25 Post contains images BigGSFO : You know, there is a clever advertising campaign hiding in this statement.
26 Jumbojet : I for one love beer, especially when its free, but lets be honest, how many beers can an individual drink on an approximate 7 to 8 hour journey? Is it
27 B6sea : ... I think he was talking about the former FRA hub that they inherited from Pan Am (I think?)... Also most of that traffic to and from JFK is O/D an
28 Post contains images Aa777jr : Agreed. Thanks alot.
29 Ikramerica : well considering the US carriers used to offer free drinks but stopped for the most part, they didn't see the value in it. they didn't see Y customers
30 Incitatus : Yes but... Only the uninformed premium tourist would choose to fly XXX-ATL-VCE on Delta as opposed to XXX-LON-VCE on BA or XXX-CDG-VCE on AF or even
31 OOer : Yes they do have pre-agreed rates. But I can telly you for a fact that those fares are higher end coach class fares!!! As they are unrestricted fares
32 Sllevin : Flying through CDG or LON only works if you're in a gateway city. There are lots of premium travelers in the world in cities that don't have AF or BA
33 RDUDDJI : Does DL still fly ATL-MCO with a 777? I always thought that one was a bit ridiculous... A wise man one told me: "You can fill up anything going to MCO
34 ARGinLON : If they do, it's only a 772 turning around before going back to CDG/LGW or NRT.
35 Dutchjet : But its not that simple, the 777s and some 763ERs doing the ATL-Florida turns were inbetween longhaul flights and would otherwise be sitting idle at
36 ContinentalEWR : Jeremy, I did not mean that DL's JFK operation is insignificant. It's definitely not a hub but Delta is the second or third busiest carrier at JFK, af
37 Dutchjet : Concerning DL's operation at JFK, its can be considered a small hub, a gateway city or focus city, depending on how one looks at it......and part of
38 Chepos : Some of us are routed through JFK for connections on DL. I get to have the "thrilling" experience of connecting from FRA to SJU via JFK on December 29
39 Phollingsworth : DL's 764s will be able to carry freight on any of the routes from the US to FRA. The longest routing, ATL-FRA, has a still air range of 4009nm. This
40 Post contains images SJUboeingGirl : I don't care how full the 763 flights get when flying from JFK or ATL to FRA , flying the same route with the 777 it's horrible... I've flown both air
41 DALMD88 : Dl would not bring the 777 into JFK only to do one route. There is no crew base for the 777 in NYC. Also parts would have to be stocked for the 777 an
42 Incitatus : Verona has its own airport with plenty of domestic and European service. It is also convenient to Milan. So justifying service to VCE based on the bu
43 DAYflyer : Why not a 764 on this route? It holds more pax, correct?
44 Panamair : Back to the original question, Delta has a few other routes out of JFK that would demand a bigger aircraft (764 or 777) before JFK-FRA. CDG and, durin
45 1337Delta764 : Delta intends to convert 8 767-400ER aircraft, which is intended to be completed by the Spring of 2007. They will be the first aircraft to feature th
46 OOer : Nothing direct to the US...thats what we are talking about here! DL has very few code-share seats in and out of VRN!!!! Always have to make a stop so
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