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New Concept (To Australia) In Trans-Pacific Flights  
User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6355 times:

A new concept, at least for Australians looks like beginning soon for flights between USA/Canada & Australia.

For a while now, a number of large travel groups in both Australia & North America have been concerned about the rapid increase in average airfares between the 2 continents, especially since SEP11.

Word is, that commencing possibly as early as the middle of 2006, flights will begin, using large wide bodies between the 2 continents over routes currently not flown.

Apparently, low frequency charters have been looked at using large aircraft, to gain economies of scale, BUT, the problem was getting enough hours with these large aircraft to keep costs down.

So apparently, what is being seriously discussed & looks like going ahead, is using a large widebody, probably on a charter basis, BUT the airline who's aircraft is being used, taking up to 50% of seats to sell in combination with existing schedule services.

Who is the carrier?

They won't tell me, BUT, it must be one of the following:-

QF, UA, NZ, AC or FJ or guess could alos be Asian carrier ???

Apparently, the charter seats will be sold one way or return (one way can be combined with frequent flyer seats or separate onward tickets OR, they can be sold on the basis of one way charter, one way scheduled.

Sounds like a great idea, to not only minimize cost of travel, BUT from charterers point of view to minimize dead legss/seats, which will further minimize seat costs.

A few new & innovative ways are being seriously looked at in selling some seats (charter) including thru eBay & in conjunction with other retail & wholesale businesses, not just travel agencies & travel wholesalers/consolidators.

Anyone out there know who the carrier is?

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6349 times:

Perhaps this might influence Aust. govt. decision on whether to allow SQ on SYD/LAX route or is it in fact SQ looking at operating these new flights, over route other than SYD/LAX, EG. BNE/SFO, SYD/SEA, BNE/YVR (NONSTOP), MEL/SFO or flights thru HNL ???

User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6077 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Brian Wilkes



Already been done- result: near bankruptcy!

Honorable mention also to Canada 3000.


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5935 times:

No this is very different !!!

A bit like UA's Ted but using large wide bodies. (not necessarily UA though - still don't know who it is).

It makes a lot of sense, as long haul low cost is next big thing !!!


User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5862 times:

You cannot make money on Australia-US mainland flights without business class passengers as the overheads are too high. Remember Air New Zealand had a tough enough time getting a decent yield on their SYD-LAX nonstops.
In all honesty, I cannot see this idea happening.


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5810 times:

Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 4):
You cannot make money on Australia-US mainland flights without business class passengers as the overheads are too high. Remember Air New Zealand had a tough enough time getting a decent yield on their SYD-LAX nonstops.
In all honesty, I cannot see this idea happening.

Of course u can make money without business class (although u could have a simple business or club class), as long as you as keep every very simple & keep overheads down.

Canada 3000 crashed straight after SEP11 as they'd just taken over Royal & Canjet & unions wouldn't let them get rid of those divisions & Canadian govt. handed out nothing like what US govt did to their airlines.

Also this just cam thru on www.travelbiz.com.au ... (wonder which aircraft they'd use ??? - maybe their old 747-300's - no market for old 743's & their probably fully depreciated.)

QF plots Jetstar international routes

Qantas executives will meet this week to discuss the international routes it will seek for Jetstar services.


QF ceo Geoff Dixon said Jetstar would operate to destinations within 10 hours of Australia, picking up new routes or services Qantas had dropped.

Jetstar would become the world’s first low-cost carrier to fly such long distances.

The plans will be discussed at a meeting of the Qantas board on Wednesday.

Dixon said that if permission for the airline to launch international services was granted this week or the following week, "I would imagine we would want it up either by December next year or early 2007”.


5 December 2005


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5659 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5754 times:

Quoting Simpilicity (Thread starter):
Who is the carrier?

They won't tell me, BUT, it must be one of the following:-

QF, UA, NZ, AC or FJ or guess could alos be Asian carrier ???

There is a traffic rights question if the owner is also going to sell seats. There are also charter permissions questions as well.

As well as the above, it could also be, from a traffic rights point of view:
BA, VS or AI, as their countries all have 5th freedom between Oz and US. BA MIGHT be a possible if they have some under utilised capacity. VS & AI probabley dont have the aircraft.

As for Asian airlines, cant think of any that currently have sufficient rights. Maybe JL could get permission for a series of charters?


Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineSFORunner From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5736 times:

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 5):
QF ceo Geoff Dixon said Jetstar would operate to destinations within 10 hours of Australia, picking up new routes or services Qantas had dropped.

Are there points between OZ and North America that are within 10 hours of one another (using *existing* passenger aircraft)?

Regardless, if this happens, it sounds like you'll see a cabin configuration like UA's high density 777 that are flown between the mainland US and Hawaii: 36F and 312Y. If you ditch F and you'll have at least 30 more Y seats.

Lose Economy Plus, and you'll have a few more on top of that.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3642 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5730 times:

The product will have to be on par with QF's Y. I could not see myself doing ~15 hours in anything less.


PHX based
User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5700 times:

there are plenty of carriers that can fly route (any U.S. carrier to start with) !!!

Also for charter purposes, understand there would be a lot more carriers who'd get permission.

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 7):
Are there points between OZ and North America that are within 10 hours of one another (using *existing* passenger aircraft)?

HNL !!!

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 7):
Regardless, if this happens, it sounds like you'll see a cabin configuration like UA's high density 777 that are flown between the mainland US and Hawaii: 36F and 312Y. If you ditch F and you'll have at least 30 more Y seats.

Lose Economy Plus, and you'll have a few more on top of that.

but could UA's 777 (which type r u talking about?) make say HNL/SYD or HNL/MEL with say 380-400 pax, without weight restriction?


User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5678 times:

Bets are on for routes such as:

DFW-SYD

LAS-SYD (Charter, as has been done in the past on QF)

ORD-AKL
ORD-SYD

SFO-MEL

KAHALA777


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 10):
DFW-SYD

LAS-SYD (Charter, as has been done in the past on QF)

ORD-AKL
ORD-SYD

SFO-MEL

Most of these can be done with a high density seating config. in a 744, maybe in newer aircraft coming online in next few years. Thing is we're talking about next year 2006 !!!

QF is talking DEC06 or early 07.


User currently offlineSFORunner From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5620 times:

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 9):
HNL !!!

Wasn't counting HNL as part of NA. I'm sure there are some folks from our lovely 50th state who would argue the same. Not to say that you won't see JetStar International heading there....

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 9):
but could UA's 777 (which type r u talking about?) make say HNL/SYD or HNL/MEL with say 380-400 pax, without weight restriction?

SYD - HNL is 4403nm. Probably outside the range of a non-ER 777-200.


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5609 times:

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 12):
SYD - HNL is 4403nm. Probably outside the range of a non-ER 777-200.

HNL/SYD the problemo, but HNL/BNE might work ?


User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5501 times:

No offence . . But where exactly did you get this info. I hear a lot of "apparently this and apparently that" but no link or discussion as to where you got this info. Not attacking your thread, simply asking!
Thanx


User currently offlineTIMEAIR From Canada, joined May 2005, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5487 times:

AC Starting bi weekly BNE-YVR w tech stop HNL only if needed with A333 first week of new year so rumour has it.


You can't get there from here.
User currently offlineOz777 From Australia, joined Jun 2000, 521 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5422 times:

Sorry, I can't see how this will work.

Apart from there being no 5th Freedom rights, the carrier would have to be either US, Fijian, New Zealand or Australian if only one seat was freesold by the airline.

Charters have been coming down to OZ for years - primarily to service cruise ship operations out of Australian ports. And guess what the fare component was - $1750 in economy (rtn) or $1000 (OW). From memory the carrier was World, using MD-11 eqt.

The economics are marginal to say the least. With no premium cabin, the acft would need to have a high density Y cabin - just the bee knees for a 14 hr non stop or 18 hour one stop from the West Coast.

And there are not that many US operators with
(a) the eqt to do a non-stop (only NW apart from UA),
(b) the spare capacity in their long haul fleet.

QF, NZ, FJ are already on the route, so I do not really see them cutting their own throats so to speak. And as for the punters, well good luck on a no frills 18 hour one stop jaunt across the Pacific, in a 32" pitch seat. Think I will go into the DVT business.

Britannia tried UK-OZ with high density 767's and the fares were only cheap on the back loads. Again evidence from the users was not all that complimentary.

But....never let the facts get in the way of a good story........uh, we don't have any facts yet.

Would be nice to get some.

OZ777


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5659 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5410 times:

Quoting Oz777 (Reply 16):
Apart from there being no 5th Freedom rights,

UK and Indian airlines HAVE 5th freedom rights Oz US.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineOz777 From Australia, joined Jun 2000, 521 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5388 times:

They may have traffic rights, but they do NOT have 5th Freedom, otherwise you would have seen Branson already plying the route with Virgin Atlantic.

Hence the reason he is seeking to launch an AUSTRALIAN AOC'd airline to ply the route.

And AI certianly does not have the rights - I recall very clearly the negotiation of the bi-lateral following their (forced) departure back in the late 80's.

For freesale of one ticket, it needs to be part of the US/OZ bi-lateral. Charter means NO freesale. If it is pure charter, then it could be anyone (as I pointed out in my earler reply).

OZ777


User currently offlineSFORunner From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5350 times:

Quoting Oz777 (Reply 16):
Apart from there being no 5th Freedom rights, the carrier would have to be either US, Fijian, New Zealand or Australian if only one seat was freesold by the airline.

http://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/prsrl/2005/56920.htm

The U.S. Department of State announces the initialing of a landmark Open Skies air transport agreement with Canada. Representatives from the United States and Canada initialed, ad referendum, the text of the Agreement on November 10, 2005.

This agreement significantly modernizes U.S.-Canadian aviation relations by allowing airlines to make commercial decisions with minimal government intervention. It builds upon the existing transborder Open Skies agreement to provide for open routes to third countries, market-based pricing, open routes for cargo flights, and a liberal charter regime. It also includes all-cargo seventh freedom rights, allowing airlines to perform international cargo operations with no connection to their homeland. Establishing full Open Skies as the basis of U.S.-Canadian aviation relations is an important step toward spurring trade, investment, and tourism between the U.S. and Canada


User currently offlineOz777 From Australia, joined Jun 2000, 521 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5251 times:

SFO Runner

And the significance of the open skies arrangement between the US and Canada is......

We are talking about carriers between the USA and Australia. Arrangements between the USA and other foreign entities do not assign to third parties. I appreciate that Canada has an air services agreement with Australia, but that extends to RPT services between the countries (and may include stop-overs with or without 2nd, 3rd 4th or 5th Freedom rights in transit points along the direct route).

I think the USA / Canada arrangement is excellent - perhaps it will allow Canadian registered entities to compete against some of the American legacy carriers on point to point sectors wholly within the USA.

But that is another story.....
OZ777


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5659 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5202 times:

Quoting Oz777 (Reply 18):
They may have traffic rights, but they do NOT have 5th Freedom, otherwise you would have seen Branson already plying the route with Virgin Atlantic.

Wrong and very wrong.

AI still have FULL 5th freedom rights "beyond Sydney". Refer to the DFAT treaty database. If you find a referance to the withdrawal of these rights on there, then I would appreciate a URL, as I haven't been able to find one.

The UK MOST CERTAINLY have FULL 5th freedom rights between Oz & USA from both governments. It was in return for QF's 5th freedom rights JFK-LHR and PA rights beyond LHR. They are probabley still nominally with BA, who operated the routes [MEL] - SYD-NAN-HNL-LAX-JFK-LHR, and HKG/TYO - HNL - LAX/SFO for decades. VS could get the rights from the UK government simply by asking for them!

According to a UK poster on A.net VS cannot fly the Pacific because of the agreement with SQ when they aquired 49% of VS. Thats why he was talking about an Oz AOC company.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineSFORunner From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5195 times:

Quoting Oz777 (Reply 20):
. I appreciate that Canada has an air services agreement with Australia, but that extends to RPT services between the countries (and may include stop-overs with or without 2nd, 3rd 4th or 5th Freedom rights in transit points along the direct route).

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/air-aerien/agreements/html/australia_e.html

Good info here if you are curious. As you probably already know, AC had an exemption from the US government to operate with 5th freedom rights to/from HNL.


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5140 times:

Any U.S. carrier, as far as we are aware, can fly in & out of Australia & in & out of Canada without restriction. There re a lot of US carriers with lots of parked wide bodies up to 744 size. Perhaps it's one of them ???

User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5028 times:

Simplicity- I hate to burst your bubble, but quite a few people here are giving you honest feedback- you don't seem to want to accept it. And no- you cannot make money on Australia-North America flights without biz class pax- NW learned the hard way with only 3 weekly SYD-LAX flights. As for a SYD-HNL service, that's not a new route as indicated in yor post and the rumour of QF transferring this flight to one of their subsidiaries has been around for at least 3 years.

[Edited 2005-12-05 18:19:52]

25 Exusair : HNL-SYD 5067 mi. Posted flight times are blocked at 10:35. Served with Delta 767-400's. Fed with Skyteam partners CO/NW. Free Stopovers in HNL of up t
26 Oz777 : Gemuser DFAT (database) site is down at the moment and my contacts at ICAO and CASA are not yet at work (gone home). When I get out of Court later tod
27 Simpilicity : Sorry but you're completely wrong. That idea is very old school. Things have changed a lot since SEP11, as follows:- 1) leasing/charter costs on rela
28 Da man : Parked MD-11s get bought by FedEx or some other cargo carrier and converted to MD-11F config.
29 Simpilicity : World Airways seems to be picking up most DL MD11's some for freighters, some for pax. They seem to do a lot of military work trans-Atlantic into FRA
30 Gemuser : Unless the definitation of :"charter" has changed (and thats possible) having the owner sell seats direct makes it not charter. While I dont doubt th
31 Gemuser : Great! If you have better information I would really appreciate the link. As for AI the last ref I found on the DFAT data base change AI's beyond rig
32 Babybus : There is one other tiny problem with flights to down under via USA and that is visas. I recently had my passport renewed and it's not machine readable
33 Post contains links Simpilicity : news just out ... from www.travelbiz.com.au DJ bid to beat SQ for Pacific route Virgin Blue executives in Canberra are making an 11th-hour bid for app
34 Post contains images SFORunner : I presume that this time-line would rule out the re-use of existing desert rustbuckets. Otherwise, the launch would be quicker. Two class 748 anybody
35 Oz777 : Simplicity I have gone back through and had a long hard look at 'the concept' as you posted through the various replies on here. Not one of these carr
36 Gemuser : I really, really do not understand this point. The AI thing gives AI 5th freedom from Australias point of view. Of course AI will need to negotiate t
37 Simpilicity : Obviously Godfrey &/or Branson have certain aircraft in mind ??? Maybe older VS aircraft as new aircrft come online? many different way of handling "
38 Simpilicity : Well someone has & they're not letting on !!! Might not necessarily be a 744. Maybe some that are due C/D checks will have those done regardless of a
39 Gemuser : But if the operating airline then sells the handed back seats, then its no longer a charter! Now these things CAN be arranged these days, unlike in t
40 Simpilicity : I think you'll find it's all about the way it's handled. Anyway, Canada 3000 came into Australia at one stage on what was called "scheduled charter".
41 ETA Unknown : Actually, everybody I knew that flew with 2T came back with "never again" stories- the A330 and 757 services. Same with the Brittania/Airtours charter
42 Simpilicity : 2T were great ... new aircraft, but slightly reduced seat pitch. Big deal it might have been 30 inches where QF was 31 inches, but for fares of AUD$9
43 ETA Unknown : Simplicity- you really are argumentative- is the purpose of this thread to validate your new venture? Good luck- you will need it!
44 Simpilicity : I was looking for opinions, not "IT WON'T WORK". It seems everyone is getting in on the act. Branson's talking about buying back control of Virgin Bl
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