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Non-precision Approaches By Mainline Aircraft?  
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

Hello,

This question arose after talking with a fellow instrument-rated pilot. I was curious if there is any place in the U.S., or indeed the world, where non-precision instrument approaches are commonly used by mainline aircraft in scheduled part 121 commercial operations?

A non-precision approach would be considered an instrument approach with horizontal guidance only (e.g. Localizer w/no glideslope), VOR approach, NDB approach, or GPS approach with no VNAV.

On a related note, I'm just guessing here, but I'm betting that the flight ops manual for many airlines forbids the use of circling approaches or circle to land procedures?

I'd appreciate any enlightenment on the said subject  Smile


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

VOR approaches are common enough, aren't they? Once every year or two they land runways 10 at SFO, which have no ILS. How about the everyday curving approaches to runways 13L/13R at JFK?

Circle-to-land runway 29 at EWR is certainly not rare, and circle-to-land runway 1R at SFO happens every year or two.


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

SXM doesn't have ILS, and we see all the A340's, 747's, and 757's that land there.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2551 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 2):
SXM doesn't have ILS, and we see all the A340's, 747's, and 757's that land there.

Harry

Yeah, but how often does SXM get IMC conditions?



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently onlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2603 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2547 times:
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Non-precision approaches are pretty much standard in large parts of Central and South America, the Caribbean, Southern Europe and Africa.

I don't think there will be many airlines out there that do not encounter non-precision approaches in their daily operations.

I work for a European airline and the many of our destinations (both short and long haul) feature nothing more than a procedural VOR or NDB approach.

As for banning circling approaches, If our ops mannual prohibited them we wouldn't be able to operate into places like Innsbruck where the use of RWY08 requires a circling approach within a mountain valley!!!

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Photo © Andreas Stoeckl


I was under the impression that US carriers commonly operate under similar circumstances to places like Vail, CO.

Regards
CROSSWIND


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2515 times:

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 4):
Regards
CROSSWIND

Thanks, Crosswind! Awesome pictures, by the way. I'm assuming that these were taken from the surrounding terrain? Is this your airline?



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2426 times:

Well..

As many may have guessed I work for Cape Air...

While we operate as Part 135 up North, ACK for example is often doing a localizer or VOR approach depending on whats happening weather wise...

Speculation is that at some point we may use ATR-42s from our 121 approved operation in Guam here in the North stations in the summertime...

If that is the case, they would see some kind of ACK service where non-precision approaches could happen on occasion.


On a different note, I used to talk to a Piedmont/US Airways pilot who told me that doing an NDB approach to CLT back in the day was a regular occurance....so it does happen.

 Smile



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineFlightopsguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

Lots of circling approaches. In use almost every day at MDW. ILS 31C circle to 22L or (more amusing) ILS 04R circle to 13C. Some carriers are better at this one than others.

Most 121 carriers by their opspecs need 1000 ft ceiling and 3 SM visibility for circle to land. Also still some LDA approaches in use.

I would bet that all or most 121 US carriers have circle to land and/or other non-precision approaches (NDB, LDA, ASR) in the opsecs. About the only one you don't see much anymore is the old PAR approach (unless you watch the original Airport movie).



A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

The VOR to 22L at JFK gets used all the time, in addition to the VOR to 13L/R. If things go into IMC, you may see them switch to ILS, but they still get use in marginal VFR conditions.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 997 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

LOC 27 in SAN is used a majority of the time.


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

Two words: Expressway Visual.

User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

Every time you land 27 at San Diego it's a LOC app.

User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2317 times:

JFK's VOR 13/R comes to mind. Point of clarification...the Expressway Visual is a charted visual approach - not a non-precision instrument approach.

User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2262 times:

Keep in mind that most of these airliners have FMS that can pretty much turn any approach from VOR to NDB into a precision-style approach with a glideslope. Airliners don't fly em like us little guys do (at least, AFAIK).


FSP


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