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Mesaba Pilots Asked To Take 19% Paycut  
User currently offlineLUVRSW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 498 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2906 times:

http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5765672.html

"If these draconian cuts are enacted by our overpaid management, it would turn us into the Wal-Mart of the airline industry," Tom Wychor, chairman of the Mesaba pilots union, said late Monday night.

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1787 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2888 times:

People should be ashamed of themselves for:
- Offering low low wages , even lower than McD, Burger King to pilots.
- Some pilots steping on each other so that they can get that "dream job".



Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineMikkel777 From Norway, joined Oct 2002, 370 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

This is not a good development. Airlines might end up getting the only pilots that can afford flying for nada, not the best pilots available. Hope (?) this doesn't backfire too bad, but I will not be surprised.

Hopefully it will be more "pilots marked", not just "mgt marked" like today, someday in the not too distant future. I think Europe is heading that way, self-financed TR hopefully will be something in the past! In my country, things are going the right way!


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 1):
People should be ashamed of themselves for:
- Offering low low wages , even lower than McD, Burger King to pilots.

********************************************************
Mesaba pilots earn annual salaries of $22,000 to $97,000. First officers, who are on the lower end of the pay scale, are being targeted for a 17 percent pay cut.
***********************************************************

These are not exactly McD & Burger King wages........



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User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2849 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 3):
Mesaba pilots earn annual salaries of $22,000

For those green f/o's making $22k, take away 17% and you've got $18,260. The equivalent of working a $9/hr job 40 hours a week. Not quite McDonalds (although McDonalds' in high-rent districts have been known to pay over $10/hr) but definitely Walmart wages at best... and not the wages a pilot should be making. That said, there are many other fields where a 1st year employee is making sub-$20k, even with a college degree, and it's BS they have to take those salaries in their fields too.


User currently offlineLUVRSW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
For those green f/o's making $22k, take away 17% and you've got $18,260. The equivalent of working a $9/hr job 40 hours a week. Not quite McDonalds (although McDonalds' in high-rent districts have been known to pay over $10/hr) but definitely Walmart wages at best... and not the wages a pilot should be making. That said, there are many other fields where a 1st year employee is making sub-$20k, even with a college degree, and it's BS they have to take those salaries in their fields too.

Excellent comment Tornado.


User currently offlineNWBOS From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

NW got a 19% paycut from the IAM. Some positions would have payed less than minimum wage at that rate. It is truly sickening that those on the low end of the scale are being asked for the same percentage. I just don't see how this is fair. When you are making $7/hour, 19% is probably all of your disposable income. 19% as a top scale pilot means you better think about putting one of your time-shares on the market. The percentages should have been scaled for the same cost savings but a greater sacrifice at the high end. Those that have more can afford to give more.

User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2806 times:

And they just got a nice new contract too....all that hard work  Sad

Quoting LUVRSW (Thread starter):
it would turn us into the Wal-Mart of the airline industry

I thought that was WN? (At least in terms of quality  Wink)

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
That said, there are many other fields where a 1st year employee is making sub-$20k, even with a college degree, and it's BS they have to take those salaries in their fields too.

Spot-on Tornado. Tell me the last time a shelf stocker at Wally World had to put up with the lifestyle of a pilot, not to mention the countless responsibility. What's more appaling is the mention of keeping the executive bonuses....DL pulled this shit a few years back, it's plain theft.

All the best for Mesaba MEC...someone needs to show management that labor is not an ATM.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 7):
Tell me the last time a shelf stocker at Wally World had to put up with the lifestyle of a pilot, not to mention the countless responsibility. What's more appaling is the mention of keeping the executive bonuses....DL pulled this shit a few years back, it's plain theft.

The heck with that even. When was the last time a shelf stocker at Walmart had to pay back their college/training loans?? If you went to college and are stocking shelves at Walmart for more than 6 months after graduation... chances are it's that person's own fault as much as anyone else's.


User currently offlineAviatorTJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2778 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
For those green f/o's making $22k, take away 17% and you've got $18,260.

Right back to what they nearly went on strike for a few Januarys ago.  Sad


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 3):
Mesaba pilots earn annual salaries of $22,000

For those green f/o's making $22k, take away 17% and you've got $18,260. The equivalent of working a $9/hr job 40 hours a week. Not quite McDonalds (although McDonalds' in high-rent districts have been known to pay over $10/hr) but definitely Walmart wages at best... and not the wages a pilot should be making. That said, there are many other fields where a 1st year employee is making sub-$20k, even with a college degree, and it's BS they have to take those salaries in their fields too.

I like how you focused on the pilots making the lowest amount, pretty sneaky if you have ask me.

My opinion, a pay cut sucks for anybody, no matter how much money they are making, but, lets at least be honest with eachother.

********************************************************
Mesaba pilots earn annual salaries of $22,000 to $97,000. First officers, who are on the lower end of the pay scale, are being targeted for a 17 percent pay cut.
***********************************************************



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User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13591 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2754 times:
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Quoting NWBOS (Reply 6):
When you are making $7/hour, 19% is probably all of your disposable income. 19% as a top scale pilot means you better think about putting one of your time-shares on the market.

Ah yes, the ever-popular class-envy argument.  sarcastic 

"You make more than me - so it's more fair that you take a bigger paycut than me, your highness!"

Spare me.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2749 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10):
I like how you focused on the pilots making the lowest amount, pretty sneaky if you have ask me.

Who's being sneaky? They're losing 17%, it says right there in the article! It's not like I stretched the truth or massaged numbers that didn't exist, there will be guys and gals making $18,260 to f/o Saabs, period. $18,260 can stock shelves at Walmart, and not have all those loans for the flight schools to pay back. My loans are only $20k and I'm paying $229 a month for my education. Thankfully I'm making alot more than $18,260, but I couldn't imagine paying back $60k in loans to flight schools, only making $18,260, even if I'd make considerably more a year or two later.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10):
but, lets at least be honest with eachother.

I am, I've told no lies.


User currently offlineLUVRSW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

What really sucks is Mesaba used BK as an excuse to get even with the pilots who got that pay raise in Jan 2004. They saw an opportunity and took it. Another factor is that due to NW parking the Avros and Saabs, a lot of captains were bumped down to FO's...now they will get shafted again. I wonder what their overall cut will end up being...from Captain down to FO minus 17%.

Tornado did nothing sneaky Mike...must be a misperception.


User currently offlineDrewwright From United States of America, joined May 2001, 621 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2713 times:

I think it is sad that I make more as a flight attendant than some first officers I fly with. This is not to say that I make too much but that they make too little. What a sad state of affairs...

User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 1):
People should be ashamed of themselves for:
- Offering low low wages , even lower than McD, Burger King to pilots.
- Some pilots steping on each other so that they can get that "dream job".

Mesa started this disgusting tradition.


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3290 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2631 times:

Quoting LUVRSW (Thread starter):
"If these draconian cuts are enacted by our overpaid management, it would turn us into the Wal-Mart of the airline industry," Tom Wychor, chairman of the Mesaba pilots union, said late Monday night.

What does he mean? Profitable? Growing? With more applicants than jobs, and nobody on furlough?

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 8):
When was the last time a shelf stocker at Walmart had to pay back their college/training loans??

Who is at fault? The pilot is the one who chose the profession. If you went into training and college knowing the job lifestyle and that it would take a long time to recoup your investment, then you have nobody to blame but yourself. The laws of the market have created too many pilots chasing too few jobs. That being the case, you are not going to recoup your investment quickly. Thats not going to change.

Quoting LUVRSW (Reply 13):
What really sucks is Mesaba used BK as an excuse to get even with the pilots who got that pay raise in Jan 2004.

Not just the pilots, but all labor at Mesaba. Flight Ops and Inflight mgmt were slashed at field level to protect the G.O. Mesaba went into bankruptcy with more assets than liabilities, its on the CH11 website. They were not bankrupt when they filed. Now, as far as we know NWA hasn't said anything about our future as an Airlink partner. But John Jinglepants is talking like its adone deal. We don't know what NWA wants, but we are all giving til it hurts.

Capt. Ed has already said that any fleet scenario going forward has the Avro leaving by June or July. But theres no idea about the rest of the fleet, or we are not being told if there has been a decision....


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1960 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2614 times:

It's unfortunate to see this happening over and over in so many industries. As long as there are people who can and will do the work for less, it's not going to work to demand more. I wonder how long it takes to work one's way up from the rather poor starting salary into the much better middle and upper ranges.

Where are most of these people located geographically?


User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2605 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
For those green f/o's making $22k, take away 17% and you've got $18,260. The equivalent of working a $9/hr job 40 hours a week.



Quoting Juventus (Reply 15):
Mesa started this disgusting tradition.

Let's not forget, that at one time, the regionals actually charged new pilots to fly for them. The mentality was that these pilots were only at the regionals to build hours to eventually move on to a major. As such, the charge was to cover the training costs. Many a pilot during those days were on food stamps.

Also, in the current business models we must remember that the regionals are only suppliers to the majors, and not really an independent airline. They don't have much of the cost structures associated with an airline, like reservation systems, call centers, fleet costs, etc. Due to the fact that they have little control of their revenue streams, which are established in the contract between the major and regional, and they have little cost areas to drive efficiencies, they really have no choice but to drive costs out of labor to make any sort of profit. Thus the Walmart mentality. When a regional tries to change its model to be more of an airline, history has proven it to be very difficult...case in point...Flyi.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3290 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 18):
Due to the fact that they have little control of their revenue streams, which are established in the contract between the major and regional

In fact the regional had better control, because they didn't have to worry about filling seats. They were getting paid anyway. And paid well. Once the majors started filing CH11, the rules changed, because those contracts could suddenly be thrown out.


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2549 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 12):
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10):
I like how you focused on the pilots making the lowest amount, pretty sneaky if you have ask me.

Who's being sneaky? They're losing 17%, it says right there in the article! It's not like I stretched the truth or massaged numbers that didn't exist, there will be guys and gals making $18,260 to f/o Saabs, period. $18,260 can stock shelves at Walmart, and not have all those loans for the flight schools to pay back. My loans are only $20k and I'm paying $229 a month for my education. Thankfully I'm making alot more than $18,260, but I couldn't imagine paying back $60k in loans to flight schools, only making $18,260, even if I'd make considerably more a year or two later.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10):
but, lets at least be honest with eachother.

I am, I've told no lies.

No sir, you keep focusing on the pilots at the low end of the wage spectrum. So, what you actually mean, is that some of the pilots making $22,000 will take a 17% pay cut, not all, as there are some pilots that are pulling in higher salaries....

********************************************************
Mesaba pilots earn annual salaries of $22,000 to $97,000. First officers, who are on the lower end of the pay scale, are being targeted for a 17 percent pay cut.
***********************************************************



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User currently offlineAASTEW From Dominican Republic, joined Oct 2001, 447 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

Where are all the A.net ENTHUSIAST, that always say it's better than no job if THE EMPLOYEES you don't take a paycut? Speak up A.net ENTHUSIAST!

When I here of a regional airline employee taking paycuts it's really sad what this industry is coming to. It's all in the name of LOW FARES. Wake up America you are traveling on an airplane with highly skilled employees. You pay for what you get.

AASTEW


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 21):
When I here of a regional airline employee taking paycuts it's really sad what this industry is coming to. It's all in the name of LOW FARES. Wake up America you are traveling on an airplane with highly skilled employees. You pay for what you get.

Why the need to blame the general public? If they want to go from point A to point B, they buy a ticket, if they can not buy a ticket, they don't travel, pretty easy.

If somebody does want to travel from point A to point because they feel it is tooo expsensive, that is the the consumers choice.

Hey, I think the new Xbox is tooo expensive, so, I won't buy it, YET, other people not only purchased the item, they also waited on long lines.

People are going to pay more money for a ticket, because you feel the pilots should be paid a higher rate, the market drives the ticket prices.



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User currently offlineVapar8 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2500 times:

It sucks people go to school and owe 60000 + and they expect them to make 18,000. Most of the time they can not even get this job out of school they have to build up more hours to get that. Then everyone bitches when they make good money.

User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 20):
No sir, you keep focusing on the pilots at the low end of the wage spectrum.

Yeah, your point?

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 20):
all, as there are some pilots that are pulling in higher salaries....

And I'm pulling a lower salary than my boss whos been here 5 years longer than me. Once again, what's your point Captain Obvious? The fact that the guy sitting beside him is making more doesn't help pay that first year f/o's rent, training/college loans, nor carpayment; just like my boss isn't helping me pay my rent, college loans, nor car payment.

The new range will be $18,260-$80,510 if that somehow makes you sleep better tonight. I'm willing to bet that the median will be WELL below the mean in this case, especially with the number of Avro guys getting knocked down the ladder. Don't forget, that $80,510 is most definitely a high-seniority Avro captain. Well, in a few months when there are no Avros, NOBODY will be making that $80,510. Does anybody have the breakout for what a Saab capt. makes?


25 MidnightMike : That was all that I was trying to get across, that not every pilot is paid at the rate you kept referring to, $80,000 is a far cry from Burger King w
26 MD88Captain : The definition of an a##hole is somebody making $1 more than me. That is what drives the glee that follows a pilot taking a paycut.
27 Tornado82 : I'm not complaining about my pay. What I'm saying is she's been here 5 years longer. She deserves more money than me. It's simple seniority, and sinc
28 RogerThat : Not highly skilled in the use of the English language, or so I HEAR.
29 DCrawley : I disagree. There are more opportunities today as a pilot than ever. There are very few job offerings within the US legacy carriers right now (althou
30 Post contains images Tornado82 : Mesaba... but I'm sure Mesa appreciates your sentiments too.
31 LUVRSW : Here's another nice tidbit from the article... Wychor said Mesaba plans to retain multiple bonus programs for managers. "We believe they could give th
32 LUVRSW : Good One
33 Apodino : I am seeing what is going on in the regional industry and it makes my blood boil. The race to the bottom because regional carriers have to underbid ev
34 TOLtommy : Perhaps. But if you are correct, then it speaks to the problem of seniority based pay and work rules. The 10 year Avro CA at Mesaba doesn't want to l
35 LUVRSW : Dead on.
36 Post contains links LUVRSW : Here's another article http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5772296.html Interesting info in this: Meanwhile, the creditors committee in the Mesaba
37 2H4 : "Very low quality" pilots tend not to pass checkrides, meet practical test standards, and get hired by airlines. Pilot pay may well deteriorate even
38 Post contains images Tornado82 : Agreed, but that's a dead horse that's been already beaten up at every airline not named Southwest. If it hasn't changed yet, I doubt it will any tim
39 Post contains images 2H4 : Oh, make no mistake, I'm not optimistic it will actually happen...just thinking about how nice it would be. 2H4
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