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MD-80's With Winglets!  
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 20804 times:

The current success of blended winglets on the B737 and B757 market has me thinking.

How come they don't have it for the MD-80 fleets?
Are there plans for this?
Is there technical issues involved?

AA and others have a few MD-80's, wouldn't this boost efficiency on the super 80's.

Those winglets will look good on those Mad dogs


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AMS-LAX-MNL
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeptember11 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3623 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 20771 times:

Winglets on M80s? Ummm ... after looking at this picture


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that is a possibility ...



Airliners.net of the Future
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 20749 times:

Aviation Partners is looking into it. The main airline that would desire them would be AA.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 20736 times:

I think you get more benefits out of winglets when you fly longer, that could be the reason since carriers use the MD's mostly for shorter routes.


Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 995 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 20657 times:

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 3):
I think you get more benefits out of winglets when you fly longer, that could be the reason since carriers use the MD's mostly for shorter routes.

Just like B6, who have winglets installed on all of their long-haul equipment  biggrin 

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A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5873 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 20628 times:

"mostly on shorter routes..."
Disagree. AA uses the MD-80 for DFW-SEA, and other long routes. Midcons, anyway. Anything over 4 hours, and it's certainly viable. Just as Southwest... Their entire fleet of -700s has them, and their birds make the occasional short flight...


User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 20574 times:

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 4):
Just like B6, who have winglets installed on all of their long-haul equipment

Hmm installed, does it come any other way Wink

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
"mostly on shorter routes..."
Disagree. AA uses the MD-80 for DFW-SEA, and other long routes. Midcons, anyway. Anything over 4 hours, and it's certainly viable. Just as Southwest... Their entire fleet of -700s has them, and their birds make the occasional short flight...

You are right I should have been more clear with my post, am I wrong that you reap more benefits out of winglets on longer routes?



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineIah744 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 20556 times:

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00005896



they would look pretty good though



Deliver Everyones Luggage To Atlanta
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 20495 times:

Quoting KL808 (Thread starter):
How come they don't have it for the MD-80 fleets?

because Boeing wants the airlines to replace them... lol... dunno, there needs to be a demand, I guess...

But those pics w/ winglets look promissing???



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 20447 times:

they look horrible...


-AJR-
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13257 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 20343 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
Aviation Partners is looking into it. The main airline that would desire them would be AA.

Will AA fund them? Imagine the MD's with new engines and winglets... coast to coast!  bigthumbsup 

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 8):
because Boeing wants the airlines to replace them...

More profit in the current environment just providing spares.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSeptember11 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3623 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 20322 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 8):
But those pics w/ winglets look promissing???

most definitely for AA ... we'll see.



Airliners.net of the Future
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4109 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 20273 times:

Quoting KL808 (Thread starter):
AA and others have a few MD-80's

If over 400 is a few, then yes.  Wink

If APB could get AA to buy them, they'd be immediately profitable, so it's a definate possibility.


User currently offlineDw9115 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 449 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 20245 times:

There's was a article in ATW or Aviation Week & Space Technology can't remember which exactly of the top of my head about this very topic and the only reason it has not gone a head yet is that they are looking for a launch customer. They are also looking in to the 737-600 and the 767-300/400 as well as the 777.

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9666 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 20230 times:

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 3):
I think you get more benefits out of winglets when you fly longer, that could be the reason since carriers use the MD's mostly for shorter routes.

AA definitely operates MD80s on longer routes nowadays. They operate almost all of their ORD-west coast flights with MD80s, which means that they are on some pretty long stage lengths.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 6):
You are right I should have been more clear with my post, am I wrong that you reap more benefits out of winglets on longer routes?

You see the benefits of winglets at high speed cruise since that is where they improve efficiency. They actually are harmful during takeoff and climb since they add weight to the plane, and in an airplane, weight is the enemy of performance. So the effect of them is more pronounced on longer flights when the plane spends more time in cruise.

The MD80 wing is already one of the more efficient wings. The T tail and rear mounted engines means that the wing can be designed for only aerodynamics and does not need to support the engines. I wonder how much efficiency winglets would bring to the MD80.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 20195 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
The main airline that would desire them would be AA.

I would think that Delta could be interested as well given the large number of Maddogs in their fleet. Now they just need to scrape up some change for them.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 20172 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
The MD80 wing is already one of the more efficient wings. The T tail and rear mounted engines means that the wing can be designed for only aerodynamics and does not need to support the engines. I wonder how much efficiency winglets would bring to the MD80.

Great point, the wings are already pretty clean. The wingtips are actually raked a little...not bad for an early design.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 20041 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
AA definitely operates MD80s on longer routes nowadays. They operate almost all of their ORD-west coast flights with MD80s, which means that they are on some pretty long stage lengths.

yah..that's for sure...just landed a couple of hours ago from ORD-SFO on one of their MD-80's....winglets would certainly look nice.. yes 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 19992 times:

If they do decide to buy winglets how many of the AA/DL fleet will be fitted do you think?

150 AA planes?



-AJR-
User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19968 times:

Do you think MD80's will be flying for AA/DL that much longer to warrant the expense of fitting them with winglets?

User currently offlineWarreng24 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19922 times:

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 13):

The 767-400 has raked wingtips and does not need winglets.


User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19916 times:

I would assume if winglets were ever put onto an MD-80 they would have to be pretty small b/c IIRC the MD-80 wing is quite a bit lighter than the 737 wing and so there would inevitably be weight and balance issues.

-IR


User currently offlineSLCPilot From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 589 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19904 times:

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 13):
They are also looking in to the 737-600 and the 767-300/400 as well as the 777.

I really doubt you'd see them on 767-400s.

As a general rule of thumb, a winglet is equivalent to about half it's height in increased span. Another way, if you have a six foot tall winglet, you'd get the same aerodynamic boost from a three foot wing extension. The reason you don't see more wing extensions is due to the fact it increases the bending moment on the wing. The 764 already has swept wing extensions.

SLCPilot



I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13257 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19846 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
They actually are harmful during takeoff and climb since they add weight to the plane, and in an airplane, weight is the enemy of performance.

Nitpick: Winglets usually reduce required runway length. However, you are correct that most winglets do not help but due to the weight hinder during climb. However, for some aircraft at *very high* MTOW, winglets can actually help climb (but then again, one isn't at high MTOW for a short hop... So you've made your point.)

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
wonder how much efficiency winglets would bring to the MD80.

Quite a bit actually. While the MD-80 is amazingly efficient for its era, that era is long gone. Modern wing design theory has continued to progress at a rate of 1/2 percent drop in fuel consumption per year. I would expect in the 5% to 7% range.

I do wonder if a new engine would have more benefit than winglets... but I think winglets are a much more economical solution.  Sad (I'm not anti-winglet, just pro-engine!)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19815 times:

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 18):
150 AA planes?

Why not all 337, assuming the winglets actually perform?

Presumably, AA would install winglets on only a few planes (probably 10 or less) at first to see how they do in regular operations, and their impact on reliability, efficiency, GTOW, range and operating economics. This is their approach with the 737s -- they put the winglets on only one plane at first, and will probably expand it to the rest of the fleet after the test period is over given favorable acquisition terms.

All of this is, of course, predicated on AA actually being willing to spend the money on these winglets, which would -- in total -- would cost millions. That, in turn, is predicated on two things: AA making money, and AA deeming the project to have a return-on-investment period of less than a few years, so they would realize the savings quickly and make back the money ASAP.


25 RiddlePilot215 : They WOULD look good.....at making the maddogs look like RJ's..... Wouldn't really help much...the only thing that plane is really good for is leakin
26 Dw9115 : This is something I found on what winglets can offer the MD-80's Winglet supplier studies MD-80 application Tuesday July 12, 2005 Fischer Advanced Com
27 AJRfromSYR : I would think some MD80 routes would not be profited by winglets, shorter runs where the winglets would hinder performance enough for them to not be
28 Commavia : While I obviously don't have actual relevant data, my guess would be that the logistical costs of innefficiency from fitting winglets on a segment of
29 MD80fanatic : Interesting info from Kurt....only one question though. Is he saying that 2%-3% can be saved ONLY with hushkitted engines? What does thrust from 40 fe
30 Dw9115 : Sorry I was mistaken it was only for the 767-300ERs. I found this info on it. Blended Winglets to Be Offered on Boeing 767's Jul 19, 04 | 12:18 pm Av
31 Slashd0t : I think the MD-80 looks great with winglets!!
32 AJRfromSYR : Very good point. Wonder if AA will ever get to the point of testing them.
33 Post contains images Jumppilot : Lets dig up the old 707's out of the desert and slap them on those too! It will be great.
34 BSU747 : Maybe an excuse for NW to put winglets on the DC-9's to keep them flying a little longer!!! Could'nt resist it. BSU747
35 AJRfromSYR : How does that have anything to do with this topic?
36 StuckinMAF : What it has to do with the topic is that the discussion concerns putting winglets on an airliner of older design (MD-80). The 707 is also an older de
37 RoseFlyer : Engines are the most expensive part of an airplane. You would only put new engines on a plane if you expect to fly it for over 10-15 years like cargo
38 AJRfromSYR : For many airlines the MD80 is an unreplaceable aircraft and in need of updating to stay competitive with the new 737NGs and A320s. I doubt the worlds
39 Jumppilot : What???? It has everything to do with the topic. I may have not used the word "MD-80" (which by the way I think would look bad with winglets) but I st
40 RJ777 : I think it's just a matter of time before the entire Boeing lineup has winglets!
41 StuckinMAF : Agreed. It certainly could be done, and it probably wouldn't be worth it. But like retro liveries, it's fun to think about mixing the old and the new
42 Vatveng : AirTran has hinted at wanting to try them out on the 717, at current fuel prices if winglets save half a gallon on a short hop they'll be worth it.
43 Ckfred : There is a rumor that AA will, within the next few years, say 3 to 6, replace the oldest 40 or 50 MD-80s with 737-800s. These are planes with a lot of
44 LMP737 : Well of course new engines, say the BR715, would save more fuel than just winglets. However you know as well as I do that engines are not cheap. Not
45 DAYflyer : Looks like a crj on steroids.
46 RiddlePilot215 : It's your typical high lift wings at HIGH AIRSPEEDS...does nothing for the plane on takeoff. I don't even thing that thing can fly without a 15 flap
47 Ken777 : If AA's 737 experiment goes well I think the MD-80s will get at least one test plane, assuming that AA is satisfied on the engineering side. Since it
48 MD80fanatic : 11 degree flaps are routinely used for TO, with 15 as an alternate.
49 CaptainStorck : If this is the case, then why did they not install them on the 300's as well?
50 AeroWeanie : McDonnell Douglas flew winglets of their own design on an MD87, back in 1994. They didn't get much of a fuel burn decrease (1-2%?), so they didn't go
51 AngelAirways : boeing partners already has a design for md-80 winglets and they are ready to manufacture but they will not commit until enough airlines express inter
52 Post contains images USADreamliner : The 727 looks good too with winglets. USADreamliner
53 RoseFlyer : The 737-300 has a different wing that would need a new winglet design and the plane may not benefit as much as the 737NGs do.
54 Desh : What is a "Raked" wingtip - also what other types of wingtips could there be ? Pics would be nice .... thanks !
55 KL808 : Its the type of wingtips found on the new B777-300ER, and B767-400. Drew[Edited 2005-12-07 23:11:12]
56 Iowaman : Interesting, however the title of this thread seems misleading..
57 StuckinMAF : You got that one right! It looks like a gymnast that has just executed a perfect dismount and is still holding her hands out, doesn't it?
58 ATA L1011 : I recall reading and seeing a photo in Airliners or Airways of a 737-300 with winglets that were being tested by some company, I dunno how its coming
59 Post contains links and images AeroWeanie : APB certified winglets on the 737-300 (STC ST01219SE) in 2003. I think only one set is in service: View Large View MediumPhoto © José Ramón Va
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