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Who Can Carry A Gun On Board?  
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7196 posts, RR: 85
Posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13724 times:
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In light of the recent incident at MIA, who can legally carry service weapons on the a/c?

I know the Air Marshals can on all flights worldwide, but what is the difference in the Federal Flight Deck Officer Program and Air Marshal Program?

Why can't the pilots carry their weapons to international destinations, but the Air Marshals can?

Very curious to know!

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13687 times:

The FAM's mission is to protect the cockpit and deny control of the aircraft to anyone who might want to illegally seize it. The FFDO's are pilots who have been through special training and may carry a weapon to be used in defense of the cockpit. As to carrying the weapon to foriegn countries, it comes down to what agreements have been negotiated between the respective governments. Some countries do not allow entry to any armed personel, others are a little more flexible. The FAMS are full time government employees. The FFDOs are airline employees who volunteer for that particular status.


Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineAirplaneDork From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13653 times:

I believe other local and federal law enforcement officials may also carry a firearm on board with proper clearance.


To fly, the dream of man and flightless bird alike!
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13644 times:

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Why can't the pilots carry their weapons to international destinations, but the Air Marshals can

Pilots are there to fly the plane, air marshals are there to shoot the terrorists. Not the other way around.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13633 times:

Quoting AirplaneDork (Reply 2):
I believe other local and federal law enforcement officials may also carry a firearm on board with proper clearance.

 checkmark  In the line of duty. Rarely see it when the local yocal is on vacation. Mine is always in my checked luggage when I'm on leisure travel. (Besides, it gives the TSA Bag X-Ray idiot something to do besides paw through my underwear).


Quoting Lowrider (Reply 1):
The FFDO's are pilots who have been through special training and may carry a weapon to be used in defense of the cockpit.

 checkmark  They are NOT commissioned law enforcement officers and have no power of arrest.


User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13597 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
In the line of duty. Rarely see it when the local yocal is on vacation. Mine is always in my checked luggage when I'm on leisure travel. (Besides, it gives the TSA Bag X-Ray idiot something to do besides paw through my underwear).


That's funny how does it work do you tell them before hand leave credentials attached to the firearm inside your luggage. That should be a shocker for any TSA Agent



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineLooneyToon From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 444 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13580 times:

are there FAMs in every flight in the US and going to and from the US?


LooneyToon
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7196 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13571 times:
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Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):

They are NOT commissioned law enforcement officers and have no power of arrest.

Anyone can make a citizens arrest, no?

FFDO = Federal Flight Deck Officer...

They go through training just like a FAM, not as extensive I understand, but they receive a lot of the same physical and psychological testing.

The license and weapon are both issued by the DOHS and Dept of State to the pilot after completion of field training and office testing.

Is there an actual document stating reasons, instead of amateur night on this blog?  Confused


User currently offlinePHLJJS From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13561 times:

FAMS and all other Federal and state or local LEO's are allowed to fly armed. They must have a letter from their Chief or commanding Officer stating there are authorized to carry a weapon and the need to do so on a flight. At check-in, they must complete some paperwork for the airline and then proceed to security. FAMS I believe are exempt from this requirement. FFDO's are deputized Federal LEO's who may carry a government issued firearm but have no powers to arrest and can only use the weapon in defense of the flightdeck. If an FFDO is sitting in the cabin for a flight (deadheading, commuting, etc.) and a situation arises on board he is not allowed to use his weapon. I believe there was a problem with FFDO's not being able to fly international at first, but I believe that issue has been resolved. I know an FFDO who flys for US and he does a lot of flight to the Caribbean. Deputizing them may have been the answer, but I may be wrong on that.

User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 13539 times:

Quoting LooneyToon (Reply 6):
are there FAMs in every flight in the US and going to and from the US?

Impossible to say as thier schedules are classifed for obvious reasons.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 7):
Anyone can make a citizens arrest, no?

Under certain conditions, yes. Usually it is along the lines of witnessing a felony in progress. This is different from a Law Enforcement Officer's power of arrest.


As for the FFDO's, they are said to have the worlds smallest jurisdiction. Namely, the flight deck. Outside of the cockpit door is beyond the bounds of thier commision.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineLongbowPilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 577 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 13433 times:
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Usually you don't know who is carrying a weapon. Being in a military area in a certain airport, we always had military officials who had firearms, always on business and always packing. They simply tell the agent checking them in, there is a procedure we must follow, than we usually walk them up through security so there is no alarms, and they are usually the first to board.

User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 13407 times:

Quoting FXramper (Reply 7):
The license and weapon are both issued by the DOHS and Dept of State to the pilot after completion of field training and office testing.



Dept of State has nothing to do with this, it's the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) which TSA falls under and they are responsible for the FFDO program.

Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineStuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13344 times:

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 5):
That's funny how does it work do you tell them before hand leave credentials attached to the firearm inside your luggage. That should be a shocker for any TSA Agent

You don't have to have any credentials, anybody can have a firearm in checked baggage, there's no law against it as long as you are following the policies of the carrier. TSA baggage screeners often will try to make a big deal out of it, but if your carrier is familiar with their own policies and they are helpful (Southwest is GREAT at this!) it's usually a non-event because they will personally advise the TSA agent of the baggage and it's contents.

Here's an example, Southwest's policy, found at http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/guns.html :

Guns and Ammunition

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guns
Customers are responsible for knowing and following the firearms laws of the state(s) that they will be traveling to, from, and through.
Our Customers must declare the gun to the Customer Service Agent at the ticket counter (no firearms will be accepted curbside) and prove that the firearm(s) chambers are free of ammunition and the magazine clip has been removed (when applicable). Paint guns and BB guns are considered the same as all other firearms.
Firearms must be encased in a hard-sided, LOCKED container that is of sufficient strength to withstand normal handling, as follows:
A firearm in a hard-sided, locked container may be placed inside a soft-sided, unlocked suitcase.
A firearm placed inside a hard-sided, locked suitcase does not have to be encased in a container manufactured for the transportation of firearms.
Only the Customer checking the luggage should retain the key or combination to the lock. No exceptions will be made.
The Customer is entitled to check sporting firearms in addition to his or her normal free baggage allowance. We allow multiple firearms to be transported inside one hard-sided case.
Southwest Airlines assumes no liability for the misalignment of sights on firearms, including those equipped with telescopic sights.
Firearms are never allowed in carryon luggage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ammunition
Small arms ammunition for personal use (provided it is properly packed) is permissible in checked baggage only.
The ammunition may be placed in the same container as the firearm and must be securely packed in cardboard (fiber), wood, or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.
When checking ammunition, Customers are limited to 11 pounds gross weight (ammunition plus container) per person.
Magazines or clips containing ammunition must be securely packaged (placed in another small box or in a secure cutout in the carrying case, in order to protect the primer of the ammunition).
Make sure guns are unloaded and definitely never transport a gun in your carryon baggage!
Gunpowder (black powder) and primers or percussion caps are not allowed in checked or carryon baggage.
Loose ammunition or loose loaded magazines and/or clips are not allowed.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13221 times:

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 5):
That's funny how does it work do you tell them before hand leave credentials attached to the firearm inside your luggage.

Asked and Answered

Thanks StuckinMAF.

LEOs armed aboard the aircraft - that is to say, with their weapon on their person in the pax cabin, will have had to identify themselves as an LEO and have the appropriate paperwork completed to authorize carrying the weapon in the cabin. This does not apply to FAMs, as that is their job.


User currently offlineFrequentflykid From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13193 times:

Couple questions to answer here.

Not every state has a citizens arrest laws on their books. However, most states allow citizens to make an arrest for a felony offense that was committed in that persons presence.

Federal Law Enforcement Officers may carry their firearm on an airplane while on-duty. On-duty is a vague term, but it clearly defined in each individual FLEO's agency. We carry our firearms aboard flights on a routine basis.

Local and state LEO's have more strict rules governing firearms on-board an aircraft.


User currently offlineJoness0154 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13186 times:

Are TSA agents allowed to break the lock on your gun case? If they are I know I'll never be travelling with my weapons. I don't need some screening yahoo running off with my stuff.


I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
User currently offlineStuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13104 times:

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 15):
Are TSA agents allowed to break the lock on your gun case? If they are I know I'll never be travelling with my weapons. I don't need some screening yahoo running off with my stuff.

Great question! Here's the answer, straight from the TSA:

"It is preferred that the passenger provide the key or combination to the screener if it is necessary to open the container, and then remain present during screening to take back possession of the key after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the screener must open the container, the TSA and/or airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact the passenger. If this is unsuccessful, the container will not be placed on the plane since unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) are not permitted on aircraft due to Federal regulations."

There is some consensus among travellers who fly with firearms about giving a combination to the screeners. Most (and I agree with this) will open a combo lock for the screeners and resecure it themselves, just as you would with a key-type lock.

Another interesting part of the regs is this:

"The ammunition may also be located in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as it is properly packed as described above."

I would NEVER do that, I prefer to keep the firearm and ammo in totally separate hard-sided cases, usually packed in a regular suitcase.

Sorry I didn't include this stuff in the earlier post. I thought about it and I knew the question would come up.

You can see the plain-language regs here: http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?content=09000519800ac232

Actually, to be even MORE technical about it, HERE'S a link to 49 CFR 1544.219, which concerns carriage of accessible weapons. It's actually quite interesting to read, it's short, and it will answer most questions related to this thread. Here's the link from the Federal Government Records Access website:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...node=49:9.1.3.7.10.3.10.10&idno=49

[Edited 2005-12-10 02:20:18]

User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3081 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13095 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
In the line of duty. Rarely see it when the local yocal is on vacation. Mine is always in my checked luggage when I'm on leisure travel. (Besides, it gives the TSA Bag X-Ray idiot something to do besides paw through my underwear).

Why on earth would you need to take a gun with you on vacation?  Yeah sure


That's a little bit overboard, don't you think?


User currently offlineStuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 13066 times:

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
Why on earth would you need to take a gun with you on vacation?

Same reason I carry it into grocery stores, McDonalds, or anywhere else. Protection for myself and my family, you just never know. The police can simply not be everywhere at once.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
That's a little bit overboard, don't you think?

Tell that to the people minding their own business on October 16, 1991 in the Luby's in Killeen, TX when an idiot drove his truck through the front window and shot and killed 23 people and injured 20 others. If a single person with a legally carried concealed handgun would have been there, the death toll could have been greatly reduced.

And before all you anti-gun folks chime in, there are also PLENTY of examples of other weapons being used against people. Hell, in England a group of Doctors are even calling for a ban on kitchen knives!!!

Don't believe me? Look here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm


User currently offlineJetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1642 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13032 times:
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Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
In light of the recent incident at MIA, who can legally carry service weapons on the a/c?

Any Federal Police officer has power of arrest in the entire country and a police officer from any Federal Police agency can carry their weapon while off duty anywhere in the USA unless their agency prohibits it, and this even includes Amtrak police officers, who are federal officers. When flying on an airline, they have to identify themselves when checking in and get a special form to be given to the captain who makes the decision to allow the officer to keep his or her weapon while on onboard, FAM’s are exempt, the captain has no say in this matter.

Almost all law enforcement officers are allowed to carry their weapons while off duty because a law enforcement officer is considered on duty at all times. This only applies to where their law enforcement authority comes from. A non-federal police officer cannot carry their weapon onboard an airplane unless they are on official police business and have proper authorization to do so, one example is returning an extradited prisoner back to their locale. They can check it as luggage if they want to transport their weapon with them.

Under a special Federal law going back to the late 1800’s, even railroad police officers, who have power of arrest on railroad property can carry off duty in all the states that their railroad serve. A friend’s father was a police officer with the old New York Central Railroad and was able to carry in each state the railroad served.

A State Police officer has power of arrest in the entire state. A County police officer has power of arrest in their county only and a local police officer has power of arrest only in their local city or town. Power of arrest comes from the incorporation charter of the State, County or city or town. In Connecticut, and I assume in all other states there is an agreement that allows officers out of their local jurisdiction to carry their weapon off duty within the state they are police officers. Some states even allow out of state police officers to carry their weapon off duty.

One state that I knew in the past that did not allow any out of state police officers to carry off duty is New Jersey. A lot of New York City police officers live in Rockland County and the fastest way to get into NYC is going through NJ and either they bypass NJ by going over the Tappan Zee bridge or don’t carry their off duty gun with them when in NJ. I do not know if NJ still prohibits out of state officers from carrying in state

In Connecticut, an on duty police officer has the power of arrest out of their jurisdiction when they are on duty and in hot pursuit, but they will usually hold the person until a local police officer arrives to make the arrest. By agreement with Westchester County in New York State, which abuts southwestern CT, a local CT police officer can engage in hot pursuit and cross the state line to apprehend and detain. I assume this also applies to the other abutting states, MA and RI. But a CT police officer cannot carry a weapon off duty into New York State or New York City, which has its own gun laws, but a federal officer can.


User currently offlinePHLJJS From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13009 times:

A federal law went into effect earlier this year or late last year that allows any police Officer who works for a government agency, whether it be federal, state or local, the ability to carry a firearm anywhere in the country. This law also allows retired officers to carry as long as they register, qualify and are given appropriate identification from the police dept. They worked for. Some states such as NJ restrict the type of ammo that may be carried, such as no hollow points. An example would be an off duty Philadelphia police Officer carrying in Delaware while on a shopping trip with the wife and kids. As long as you are a current or retired LEO from a government agency, and have the proper ID, your good. This does not apply to police officers such as the Temple University or University of PA police forces who are state certified police officers but work for a school. However, no former LEO's may carry on a plane and only current LEO's on official business may do so.

User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 12994 times:

StuckingMAF

The fact is that the more people who carry guns, the more people who can kill someone with one, (accidentally or otherwise) . So unless guns become safer the more that there are in circulation, the more deaths there are going to be.

Also this "single person with a legally carried concealed handgun" seems to miss one vital point. Surely in the US having a concealed hand gun is a criminal offence, how can you or I carry it legally in an illegal manner.


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3081 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 12988 times:

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 18):
Same reason I carry it into grocery stores, McDonalds, or anywhere else. Protection for myself and my family, you just never know. The police can simply not be everywhere at once.

Tell that to the people minding their own business on October 16, 1991 in the Luby's in Killeen, TX when an idiot drove his truck through the front window and shot and killed 23 people and injured 20 others. If a single person with a legally carried concealed handgun would have been there, the death toll could have been greatly reduced.

And before all you anti-gun folks chime in, there are also PLENTY of examples of other weapons being used against people. Hell, in England a group of Doctors are even calling for a ban on kitchen knives!!!

You just keep telling yourself that you're protected, even though all statistics prove you wrong. Stats show that a gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

I bet this police officer thought he was safer by carrying a gun:

http://www.komotv.com/stories/40670.htm


But hey buddy, believe what you want.


User currently offlineSmcmac32msn From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 12965 times:

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 22):
I bet this police officer thought he was safer by carrying a gun:

http://www.komotv.com/stories/40670.htm


But hey buddy, believe what you want.

Theres a difference between ANCFlyer, StuckinMAF, and this story... the officer was on duty that was shot. Its not a fair comparison. I'm not all for guns, my aunt was shot 3 times in the back during a routine traffic stop she was conducting. I think that somebody who legally (gets the permits from the local/state government) carries should be held accountable for their gun in this situation.

If somebody uses it to commit a crime, the permit holder should be held responsible. If the permit holder uses it to commit a crime, they should (at minimum) be sentenced to LIFE in JAIL (depending on state laws regarding the death penalty) without chance of parole. Guns should not be outlawed, but much stricter laws enacted.

If ANCFlyer and StuckinMAF want to carry their guns with them and are law abiding citizens about it, then fine. If they were in the same restaurant as me when some nut-case started shooting up the place like Luby's in '91 and they stepped up and biffed the MF'er, then I'd call them a hero. Not everybody who carries/has a gun is a criminal.

Sorry about the rant, but gun-haters get on my nerves.



Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12888 times:

I suspect that most people in a real situation shoot less like John Wayne, more like his dog.

Two people having guns could lead to a shoot out, with you in the middle.

Sometimes it might be best to say to the man with the gun, here's the till take it.

Money is replaceable.

If people are going to carry guns then they need full training with them.


25 Kellmark : I respect peoples right to speak on both sides of the issue of guns. If someone owns them, then they should be responsible and be held responsible if
26 Stoney : Well, I only know how it's handled here in Switzerland. Even since way before 9/11 there was a box on all longrange planes (SR and now LX) with a box
27 Post contains images Flyguy595 : Guns Kill knives kill baseball bats kill hell even hands can kill. yes if I had a gun and wanted to commit suicide I would use it too maybe making it
28 Post contains links and images Soups : MyAviation.net photo: Photo © SPC Michael Weber Welcome Onboard
29 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Why on earth do you care    If I wanna carry my Glock 22 or Ruger Redhawk as a law abiding citizen (and sworn law enforcement officer) in any numbe
30 StuckinMAF : Thank you for saying that. If would not have seemed as pertinent if I or ANCFlyer had said it. Very, VERY true, but lots of people choose to ignore t
31 MD80fanatic : There would have been no 9-11 had people been allowed to carry their personal weapons (not just guns) during a flight. Disarming people turns them fro
32 StuckinMAF : Thank you for your support. I and my brethren who are properly licensed and/or lawfully carry promise you and all others who share your viewpoint tha
33 FlyMIA : Well its the Captains Airplane. So the captain cant actually arrest the person, but the captain can do what ever he thinks is necessary to keep his a
34 Lowrider : Yes, and FO being and FFDO does not impinge on the Captain's overall PIC authority. Without going into to much detail, the purpose of the FFDO is to
35 Post contains links ANCFlyer : New Glock 36 . . . a nice, compact .45 cal. This will be my new Backup and my my Christmas Present to me. http://www.glock.com/g36.htm
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