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727 Becomes Campaign Issue In Canada  
User currently offlineNBC News1 From UK - England, joined May 2001, 324 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8267 times:

Canadians head to the polls January 23rd and opposition parties are slamming Prime Minister Paul Martin for using an environmentally unfriendly 727 as his campaign plane..."one of the world's noisiest and most environmentally unfriendly aircraft."

Both the Conservatives and the New Democratic Party are renting A320s from Air Canada.

*******
Martin faces questions over campaign plane
CTV.ca News Staff

While Prime Minister Paul Martin was making an address on climate change at a UN conference in Montreal, the Conservative party was challenging his credibility on the subject, saying there is clearly a "gap between Mr. Martin's rhetoric and his actions."

In a press released entitled "Reality Check," the Conservative party blasted the Liberal leader for flying in a Boeing 727.

"Liberal Leader Paul Martin flew in to Montreal today to boast about his clean air record. Um, but he flew in quite the gas guzzler! Paul Martin is jetting around in a Boeing 727 - one of the world's noisiest and most environmentally unfriendly aircraft," the press release reads.

"Conversely, the Conservative campaign plane is an Airbus 320 -- widely respected for its low greenhouse gas emissions and noise control."

The Conservatives cite a report from the European Commission that says "The noise level of an Airbus 320 is around 20 dB less than that of a Caravelle or Boeing 727 40 years ago."

The release also cites a 2004 Globe and Mail article that reports statistics released by the Air Transport Association of Canada reveal the Boeing 727 burns 1,289 gallons of fuel per hour, compared with the Airbus 320 which burns just over half that amount, at 767 gallons per hour.

A spokesperson for Air Transport Association of Canada told CTV.ca that "Clearly, older aircraft such as the Boeing 727 are not as environmentally efficient as newer models, like the Airbus A320 but the entire aviation community in Canada is committed to work towards reducing greenhouse gas emissions, including both companies involved in these election charters."

Martin was defiant when asked about the fuel efficiency of the plane.

"This is a plane like any other plane. The only way to travel across a country like Canada is to travel by plane, and I suppose we could poll press members who are travelling with me whether they'd like to cross the country by bus," he told reporters.

"But the fact is that we all know that we have to make all means of transportation more sustainable and save energy. And I have to say that I don't take your question lightly. I think this is important. There are a lot of things currently in place we have to change, and certainly the fact that we're wasting energy through transportation -- that's one of them."

Later Wednesday, when asked again about the plane, Martin conceded there was room for improvement.

"The fact is that that these are chartered planes ... what you are saying is there are more fuel-efficient planes that we could have chartered. I suppose that's something that we would look at."

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUK_Dispatcher From United Arab Emirates, joined Dec 2001, 2597 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8240 times:

Seriously, who is going to ask whether an aircraft is environmentally friendly before chartering it?! Parties who are chartering an aircraft are not technical experts on aircraft - I really don't think the guy has anything to account for.

User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8228 times:

It's at times like this I wished I lived outside Canada. All the whining and bitching and needless chatter around election time such as this drives me nuts. Stupid non-issues like this being splashed though the media are simply hurting the conservatives. Ridiculous really. If the 727 was such a bad aircraft maybe the conservatives should give First Air a call and tell them to cease operations.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8200 times:

Quoting NBC News1 (Thread starter):
Both the Conservatives and the New Democratic Party are renting A320s from Air Canada.

A319s I think - from this internal AC notice:

Quote:
Conservatives, NDP charter AC A319s. This week, Winnipeg Heavy Maintenance installed decals on two A319 aircraft, which will take the Conservative Party and the NDP throughout the country for their respective campaigns this winter. Both parties also chose Air Canada to fly them during the last campaign in 2004. The aircraft FIN 288, to be used by the Conservative Party and FIN 287, to be used by the NDP were subsequently ferried to Ottawa when the campaign officially began on Tuesday. Both charters are being handled and operated by AC Jetz.


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8180 times:

Should have dug up and flown an old Convair 880. That, was a true clear air converter...

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12947 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8130 times:

Quoting NBC News1 (Thread starter):
Canadians head to the polls January 23rd and opposition parties are slamming Prime Minister Paul Martin for using an environmentally unfriendly 727 as his campaign plane

Wow, and Canadians are usually such nice people!

Maybe Mr. Martin should be praised for not needlessly causing the extraction and smelting of aluminum ore to produce a newer aircraft...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1940 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8067 times:

When people get this way you have to wonder what their true motives are....If they are willing to pay for an environmentally efficient aircraft such as an Airbus or NG 737 to carry these candidates then let the people making the accusations pay for it.....

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8057 times:

Quoting NBC News1 (Thread starter):
The Conservatives cite a report from the European Commission that says "The noise level of an Airbus 320 is around 20 dB less than that of a Caravelle or Boeing 727 40 years ago."

You have got to love the blatant misuse of statistics here. While a modern A320 of B737 is ~20dB quieter than an original 727-100. That is not the case with the 727 that Paul Martin is being trucked around in. As such the use of the comparison is patently improper.


User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7855 times:

Those who are not in Canada fail to see the real issues here: Liberal arrogance and hypocrisy. Paul Martin and the Liberals have an objectively appalling environmental record, Cdn greenhouse emissions are up 23% since 1991--one of the worst in the industrialized world---PM Martin attends a climate conference yesterday and, true to form, and without regard to any fact or reality---portrays himself and the Liberal party as saviours of all that is good and decent--including the environment.

All the while, the campaign aircraft was leased from some Liberal hack and is yet again an indication of Liberal pork barreling.

It is a legitimate issue and should be. Martin and the Liberals espouse Kyoto and expect all Canadians to tighten their belts and conserve--and yet go ahead and lease a campaign aircraft which on any objective standard is considerably worse as a polluter.

You can't have it both ways--as much as the Liberals try to.


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7843 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 2):
Stupid non-issues like this

Well, no, it's not exactly a non-issue. It's hypocritical of the Liberals to be running on the issue of environmental sustainability and campaiging to stop climate change on the international stage all the while jetting around the country in one of the dirtier planes (emissions-wise) still in operation today.

They could've used an A319 like the other parties, but chose to use this one, I suspect, because it was more than likely donated by Cargojet (who's owner just happens to be a big Liberal supporter).

So, it's just another case of the Liberals throwing their policies aside in favor of the almighty dollar.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1732 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7807 times:

does anyone know whom that 727 belongs to?

I also find it interesting that the COnservatives do not charter a Westjet aircraft..


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7768 times:

Quoting CayMan (Reply 8):
You can't have it both ways--as much as the Liberals try to.

CayMan, you are right on the money with this one. The issue isn't the airplane, it's gross hypocrisy -- and the Liberals have been getting away with this kind of stuff for decades, starting with Chretien's promise to a) scrap NAFTA and b) get rid of the GST (for the benefit of non-Canadians -- he did neither).

Martin's version of this is to try to take the moral high ground on global warming (Canada signed Kyoto) by slamming the US for not signing it. But the US performance on lowering greenhouse gas emissions is twice Canada's performance, in fact Canada ranks 35 out of 40 on that score.

His party's decision to charter a comparative gas guzzler speaks volumes about just how serious he is on this issue -- in other words, he's just as hypocritical as his predecessor. I'm almost at the point where I'd sooner vote for the Communist Party than for these guys, and I'm a raging capitalist.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7657 times:

Quoting Yegbey01 (Reply 10):
does anyone know whom that 727 belongs to?

Operated by Starjet Canada, owned by Cargojet.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4358 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7637 times:

Another part the "treehuggers" (used tongue in cheek, I have been member of the dutch Green party for a while) forget when they clame this, is it MAY be more environmentally friendly for say First Air to continue to operate a 727, which is available as stand by anyway then order a new A-320, the building of which also cost a lot in energy and materials.


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7560 times:

Airbus? Boeing? Is that CANADIAN? Did the candidates Bush and Kerry fly some non-American metal last year?

All 3 of them should fly BOMBARDIER aircraft. They make excellent corporate jets, or regional jets that can be modified like they did to these 319s and 727. These are not gas guzzlers unlike, indeed, the 727 is.

May all three of them lose the elections... (not for that stupid aircraft issue but other issues...) (errr, 4 of them, I'm not supporting the Bloc Québécois either!!!!)

Quoting CayMan (Reply 8):
Cdn greenhouse emissions are up 23% since 1991--one of the worst in the industrialized world

Right indeed. Even the Americans are doing better than we do on this (increase of emissions, not emissions themselves). Big shame on us.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7560 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 13):
it MAY be more environmentally friendly for say First Air to continue to operate a 727, which is available as stand by anyway then order a new A-320, the building of which also cost a lot in energy and materials.

This is a red herring. I can't see any new orders for Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Embraer or anyone else because of a two-month charter for 3 aircraft used in a Canadian election. All these planes belong to existing fleets and will be back in service with those fleets after election day.

Maybe the real story here is how much the parties are paying for these aircraft. Given that both the NDP and the Conservatives are using Air Canada planes, those deals should be fairly transparent. And who is supplying the gas?



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineCaptainCanuck From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 30 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7556 times:

Honestly, Martin should fly around in one of the military's Sea Kings or Herc's. See what the armed forces have been putting up with for the last four decades.... Harper would be on his own after the first leg of the trip.

Or heck, even one of the new 'reliable' Cormorants. Because those are working out well.


User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7525 times:

Any pictures of PM Martin's campaign 727?

I believe Brian Mulroney used an AC 727 for his re-election campaign back in 1988. He won in a landslide...

[Edited 2005-12-08 18:09:46]


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineCaribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1639 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7443 times:

Hum.. seems to me there are far more pressing issues in Canada than one dirty 727. People with lumps on their lungs have to wait 6 months to get a hospital appointment leaving those of us who can to flee to US clinics and hospitals to get earlier results.... isn't that a far more pressing if not far more heartfelt problem for Canadians the media and politicans can play up than an old piece of metal which is generally nameless, faceless and meaningless to the average voter. I almost feel sorry for the 727 since she was such a proud plane in her day.. but come on..

User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7392 times:

Yes, governing party (or any party for that matter) hypocrisy should not be an issue. Let's move on, shall we?  Yeah sure


Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7325 times:

Quoting MattRB (Reply 9):
Well, no, it's not exactly a non-issue. It's hypocritical of the Liberals to be running on the issue of environmental sustainability and campaiging to stop climate change on the international stage all the while jetting around the country in one of the dirtier planes (emissions-wise) still in operation today.

One politician flying one dirty aircraft for one campaign is really not a big deal and it's petty of the opposition to try and make it a big deal. I was brought up in a pro-liberal environment and EVEN I voted Conservative last time and plan to do so again because I'm sick of the bull$hit that the Liberals keep trying to feed me and the rest of this country. That said I think Harper and Jack "used car salesman" Layton should worry about themselves and their platforms rather than taking little potshots at Martin and his cronies. Petty actions such as this only make them looks weaker.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7179 times:

You cannot blame the Conservative Party for "making" this an issue.
Paul Martin was in Montreal appearing officially as PM but using his appearance at the environmental summit as a soap box and a stump for his campaign---proudly rattling off inaccuracies aimed to pump up his pitiful environmental record.

All the Conservative election war room did is send email/blackberries to the press giving them a heads up on the issue of the aircraft--it was up to them whether to make it a reported issue. Evidently they did. So you cannot say the Cons Party "made" the issue--they brought a fact to the attention of the press which chose to report on it.


User currently offlineMilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 872 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6893 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 2):
It's at times like this I wished I lived outside Canada. All the whining and bitching and needless chatter around election time such as this drives me nuts. Stupid non-issues like this being splashed though the media are simply hurting the conservatives.

YOWza, calm down a little bit mate . You should know that after Hockey, Politics is our second favourite past-time.
-Milan320



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6468 times:

Quoting NBC News1 (Thread starter):
"Conversely, the Conservative campaign plane is an Airbus 320 -- widely respected for its low greenhouse gas emissions and noise control

Jeezus...do you think those greenies actually know how much plastic is used in that plane's construction?



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7653 posts, RR: 35
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6431 times:

Quoting NBC News1 (Thread starter):
opposition parties are slamming Prime Minister Paul Martin for using an environmentally unfriendly 727 as his campaign plane

Of course they are! They're the opposition party, thats their job. As if any average Canadian would know the difference or even care about it. Typical politics.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
25 CRJ'sRule : "Both the Conservatives and the New Democratic Party are renting A320s from Air Canada." Glad to see the Conservatives getting good usage of of the Ai
26 Threepoint : Cayman, Arrow and MattRB, perhaps you guys should consider moving your political opinions to the non-av forum. The fact you used the word 'airplane' i
27 Hardkor : If I were one of the leader of our political parties, I'd charter a pimped-MD-11. I'd love to see the looks on the reporters faces when the ol' Maddog
28 MissedApproach : At least it's owned by a Canadian company. Unlike the diplomatic corps maple-leaf pins the Liberals had made in China. Still, pretty hypocritical to
29 Cessnapimp : You know what MattRB? You have a definite point here... ... let's say Martin IS getting a break here on the rental of the plane... this is a huge cam
30 YWG : It just goes to show how complicated politics get in Canada.
31 Eddieho : I'd actually come back and ask, "Well whose money are you spending?" I'd agree to spending on a cheaper aircraft.
32 TIMEAIR : Yeah, could've used a Jazz CRJ 705....although with all the media equipment the A320/319 are hauling around, could've become a challenge getting it a
33 YOWza : Being Canadian I do know this, but the childishness on parliament hill has to stop. So true!! All of this juvenile bickering aside I do love the fact
34 Milan320 : Just like our country, this thread is split up too. Couldn't agree with you more on the politics part. YOWza, did you get a job with Airbus/EADS? If s
35 Darrenthe747 : As a HUGE Boeing fan and 727 fan, they have a point. If you go around talking liberal rhetoric then you need to set an example. 727's are loud and fue
36 Post contains images Haj96 : So he really uses a cargo plane for his campaign? At least he doesn´t have to close the shades when he watches a movie Regards, haj96
38 Glideslope : Allright, this is it!!! No Smoked Herring from Nova Scotia for anyone under my Christmas Tree!!!!
39 MattRB : Did you miss the title of this thread perhaps? This is a discussion about the Liberals use of a 727 while running on an 'environmental sustainability
40 Bmacleod : Wasn't AC privatized in 1989?
41 HKGKaiTak : Why do they even need a A319 or a 727? Wouldn't a CRJ be enough? (not to mention Canadian made?) I'm sure they can fly AC or WS commercially if they r
42 Ikramerica : I agree. CRJ900 would be fine, and very patriotic. Gee, and down here all we hear about is how horrible our system is and how wonderful Canada is. we
43 Threepoint : Thanks, I managed to catch the title of the thread...it was right there at the top where it usually lies. I agree with your interpretation of the dis
44 Caribb : Well it's anything but "wonderful". Perhaps you pay a lot but at least you get a fast reaction to your problems in the US. Your problem is can you af
45 TIMEAIR : Pleas refer to comment 32. You have to keep in mind that all parties are also taking media and others onboard their campaign aircraft, and carry appr
46 SkydrolBoy : Maybe they should fly around in a Convair 580 like the BC Liberals did during their campaign earlier this year.....
47 AC7E7 : Not to mention that each media outlet is paying between 9-11k each to tag along with the political parties. The parties are probably either breaking e
48 Yyz717 : That the PM is flying a 727 in the campaign is a non-issue. Anyone complaining about this is also badmouthing indirectly all the other Canadian operat
49 9252fly : If I recall,in the previous election,did not the Liberals also use a 727 from the same operator? I find it odd,as you would think that the most succes
50 A332 : It's a non-issue... the opposition can get back to focusing on real concerns.
51 Yyz717 : Exactly. Such as Gomery, which deals with the theft of tax dollars by the Liberals who gave it to Quebec ad firms who then donated it back to the Lib
52 AC7E7 : It's an issue that the Liberals would have pounced on if it were the other way around. Don't blame the opposition on this one. They do have a point.
53 Post contains images DeltaGator : Bush of course flew Air Force One. Kerry kept flip-flopping on his aircraft. He voted for the 757 before he voted against it. I believe he settled on
54 ETStar : The conservatives are begining to piss me off now. They are crying about everything and anything that comes up every day (and that btw is what they ha
55 Arrow : That's what they are supposed to do. The whole concept of a loyal opposition is to oppose the government. You think they should be patting the Libera
56 CayMan : Once again naivete rules. The CPC didnt "push" anything. they mentioned it to the media which ran with it for a day. The story is Liberal hypocrisy no
57 Post contains links and images Dripstick : I say let him fly in a hot air balloon. He would be the fuel source. Here is the aircraft in question... MyAviation.net photo: Photo © Andy Vande
58 CPDC10-30 : If you check out Starjet's website, the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin is their #1 bubbly testimonial quote: To the Whole Starjet Team, "You have made what coul
59 Post contains images Boeingfanyyz : Hmmm...I thought the Conservatives were using a 319 chartered from AC. Please follow up. Cheers, Boeingfanyyz
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