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Air France Fleet Question  
User currently offlineSA744 From South Africa, joined Nov 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6780 times:
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In the scheme of things does Air France have a bigger Boeing or Airbus fleet and if they are a large member of the Airbus consortium why do they still use boeing aircraft?

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6764 times:

Quoting SA744 (Thread starter):
and if they are a large member of the Airbus consortium

Air France is certainly not a member of the Airbus consortium.

Quoting SA744 (Thread starter):
why do they still use boeing aircraft?

They do it like every airline, they buy the aircraft which fits best into their fleet.

Patrick


User currently offlineLazyshaun From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 6750 times:

They have way more airbus. Probably 2:1 ratio.
However the 13 or 15 (can't remember) 737's are going soon, and the 747's can't stay forever, especially the 742/3's.
Saying that, they are losing some a340's to make space for BOEING 777's, so their not all that airbus after all.



I came. I saw. I conquered
User currently offlineBoeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6599 times:

Current fleet:

The Air France fleet consists of the following aircraft:

* 11 Airbus A318
* 44 Airbus A319
* 67 Airbus A320
* 13 Airbus A321
* 16 Airbus A330
* 20 Airbus A340
* 13 Boeing 737
* 33 Boeing 747
* 25 Boeing 777-200ER
* 10 Boeing 777-300ER

* Airbus A380-861 (10 ordered)
* Boeing 777-300ER (5 on order)
* Boeing 777F (4 on order)



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

Quoting SA744 (Thread starter):
if they are a large member of the Airbus consortium why do they still use boeing aircraft?

Because they are secretly testing the opponent's products, to squeeze all secrets & advanced technology.

Air France is not what you think it is.  up 


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6482 times:

The remaining B737 should all be retired by the end of 2006/early 2007.

Air France will have then an all Airbus fleet for its short/medium haul : the A320 family, with the A318/A319/A320/A321 covering all its needs in terms of capacity.

Concerning the long-haul fleet, Boeing is largely dominant with the B772ER/B773ER, & B744 against "only" 36 Airbus (16 A332 + 20 A343)


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9377 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6462 times:

Air France definitely has an odd ball long haul fleet. They operate almost all of the main long haul planes. The A330, A340, 777, 747 and soon the A380 (and had 767s at one point in time). Definitely the opposite of fleet commonality. I am extremely confused as to what direction they want to head. Or is it a political move to operate everything.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3649 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6421 times:

RoseFlyer, fleet commonality isn't the only issue as to what aircraft to order, engine choice is another issue, also it is what aircraft would suit best the airline in terms of pax/cargo capacity and range. They chose the B777 over the A340-500/600 for one reason: the B777 product is fitted with GE engines and the A345/346 probably is not. Air France wants to focus on only one engine supplier: General Electric.
The Classic 747's will be gone by the end of next year, and if you look at Air France future fleet plan, the next aircraf that they will phase out is the Airbus A340 eventhough that one is still young. They will have a long haul fleet consisting of B777's, A330's and A380's, those will be operated on routes which see more business pax than leisure pax, the 747-400's (13 of them remaining in pax config I believe) will continue to fly for a few more years probably until early next decade, and they will be seen on leasure destinations. What will happen is this: once the Classic 747's leave, the 400's will take over the routes flown out of ORY to leasure destinations and the A380's as well as additional 777's will take over some intercontinental routes which were flown with the 744 out of CDG. The Freighter section of Air France currently has B747-400F's and as stated above B777F's on order.
FLYSSC, thanks for your info. You are a very good source of info about Air France. I would be curious to know when the final B737 flight will take place, and from where. The only thing I know is it will arrive in CDG. I would like to fly on the final flight.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6383 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
Air France definitely has an odd ball long haul fleet



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
Definitely the opposite of fleet commonality

 wideeyed 

3 different types of aircraft for all the long-haul network of an airline like Air France, you find that "odd" and "opposite of fleet commonality" ???

BA has the same ... 767/777/747
LH : B747/A333/A343/A346/A300-600
KL : B747/A330/MD-11/B767
CO : 767/DC10/777/757
EK : 777/A345/A330/A310
NW : DC10/B767/A330
SQ : 747/777/A345/A310
TG : A330/A340/747/777/MD11

etc ...


User currently offlineWillyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6333 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
3 different types of aircraft for all the long-haul network of an airline like Air France, you find that "odd" and "opposite of fleet commonality" ???

BA has the same ... 767/777/747
LH : B747/A333/A343/A346/A300-600
KL : B747/A330/MD-11/B767
CO : 767/DC10/777/757
EK : 777/A345/A330/A310
NW : DC10/B767/A330
SQ : 747/777/A345/A310
TG : A330/A340/747/777/MD11

etc ...

Many of these are wrong:
CO - no more DC10s, so they have 3 aircraft, with very little overlap.
NW - no 767s ever, but they do have 747s. the 330s are replacing their DC10s.
SQ - has retired all A310s, and 345s are a small fleet for 2 specific routes.
etc...

I think you misunderstood the point. AF has a large fleet of 343s and 772s, which is odd. Normally airlines choose one or the other because they offer similar sizes, ranges, etc. I agree TG and EK have odd fleets as well, but the rest of the airlines you mentioned have generally 3 types of longhaul planes, each one a different size. Also, the LH AB6s are for short to medium haul routes around Europe.


User currently offlineAnxebla From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6256 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
I am extremely confused as to what direction they want to head. Or is it a political move to operate everything.



Quoting American 767 (Reply 7):
They chose the B777 over the A340-500/600 for one reason: the B777 product is fitted with GE engines and the A345/346 probably is not. Air France wants to focus on only one engine supplier: General Electric.

Not political move or just one reason.
The key to understand this matter is Snecma Moteurs of France, a French company. AF which is a National carrier highly controlled by the French government is always supporting the engineering "made in France" in companies such as SNECMA ...which contribute to the France's high technology in mechanical engineering development.

And SNECMA (Société Nationale d'Etude et de Construction de Moteurs d'Aviation) is a GE industrial partner = CFM International = joint company of Snecma Moteurs, France and General Electric Company, U.S.A.

ALL AF fleet is powered by CFM (737, A320 familiy, A343) or by GE, the main partner of Snecma (777s, for instance)

...Air France's A380 will be with the Engine Alliance GP7200. Engine Alliance was founded in 1996 by GE and P&W, but others companies like the German MTU Aero Engines, the Belgian Techspace Aero, and of course Snecma of France also are industrial partners

Quoting Willyj (Reply 9):
AF has a large fleet of 343s and 772s, which is odd.

AF has always said 343s and 772s are differents planes for a different mission/market target


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9377 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6241 times:

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 10):
AF has always said 343s and 772s are differents planes for a different mission/market target

AF may feel that way, but not many other airlines do. Most airlines operate either the 777 or A340, not both. The two are almost direct competitors. AF has made their 777s and A340s serve different targets. They configured the A340s to be optimal for low yielding routes and 777s for high yielding routes. However AF could accomplish the same thing by operating a single fleet type and just configuring some planes differently kind of like how other airlines operate multiple configurations for a single fleet type like LH.

I also think that it is a bit of a stretch to say that the varied fleet is solely because of engine choices. If that is true, then AF could have gone for the A343 or 772, but not both. Also wouldn't AF also have an allegiance towards Airbus, since Airbus is so integral with the French economy?



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAnxebla From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 11):
I also think that it is a bit of a stretch to say that the varied fleet is solely because of engine choices

The "varied" fleet is NOT solely because of engine choices, but it is one between them. Anyway I am not Jean C. Spinnetta, the AF's CEO  Wink

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 11):
Also wouldn't AF also have an allegiance towards Airbus, since Airbus is so integral with the French economy?

Airbus is an European Consortium (EADS 80% & BAE-Systems 20%) and SNECMA is totally French


User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6126 times:

If you have a fleet that large,
it is ok to cover your costs to aquire various different type of aircrafts.
You do maintenance on more then 10 aircraft (maybe 20 or more!) per fleet type and then it does'nt really matter anymore because you benefit more from the aircraft themselves rather then the non-flying costs.

I have read a study of LH that they could easely introduce for instance 777's into there fleet where once predicted more difficult to do costwise because of there large structure.
(not argumenting they are going to order some!)

Anyway AF has a very good structure now for there maintenance and training,
and regarding mid sized to big liners, they could aquire virtually everything now from A or B without extra costs, where some other airlines have it more difficult to do.

That's maybe the reason why I like this airline!


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6117 times:

And you can also farm out maintenance of one type in your fleet to a third party while taking in maintenance of another type in your fleet from other airlines. It can even be a net positive to do it that way. As an example, you could hire out the major service on your 777s, but do all the 340 maintenance yourself, as well as doing 340 service for other smaller airlines.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSA744 From South Africa, joined Nov 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6051 times:
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Thanks guys this is great just nice to get perspective. It is also strange as they have now bumped their flights to 10 a week to JNB we get a mix of equipment which is always adds a spin to the days spotting never know what you gonna get. Use a mix of A340 and 744

User currently offlineElGreco From France, joined Nov 2005, 164 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5940 times:

Interesting discussion:
- most GE/SNECMA engines: right
- 2nd word larger maintenance capacity, so only possible, when you used and maintained both A and B (in the maintenance team, they have their A or B specialty indicate on their business card) so for that reason they know really well from deep inside both A and B ;
- AF family planes choice always based mainly on technical reasons and not at on Political one (even if these pressure exist, it's typically French and US way).

Just one comment in addition:

AF maintenance take care of their plane like "Vintage car owner", so even if they consider today B777 better than A340 (especially -200 which is consider by them underpowered), they will keep it up to their 20-25 years.

The 747 will disappear replaced by B777 and A380 effect, except B747F.



When you are right alone, you are wrong
User currently offline773AF From France, joined Dec 2005, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5838 times:

Starting from next year, 2006, AF will progressively replace their old 747s by new 777-300ER on the Caribbean and Indian ocean routes. As for the A340's I really doubt they will last until their 20-25 years in the fleet. The A330s and additional 777s will take over.
Regarding the cargo, it will be the same I guess with the old 747F as we will see the 777F and for sure some A380F in AF fleet.


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5724 times:

Quoting 773AF (Reply 17):
Regarding the cargo, it will be the same I guess with the old 747F as we will see the 777F and for sure some A380F in AF fleet.

No A380F in AF's fleet.
All the remaining B742F will be retired by 2008.
AF is already operating 5 B744ERF. More should be added.
3 B744 PAX will be soon converted in All freighters (2 in 2007 - 1 in 2008)

+ the B772LRF of which AF will be the launch company.

Concerning the PAX a/c, the A343 & the B777 are more complementary rather than competitors.
The B772ER are used on the premium routes with more Business traffic
They will be doon equipped with 4P/49J/211Y (Config. now is 12P/56J/202Y), while the First class has been removed on the A343 with two new configurations : 36J/236Y or 30J/261Y


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5615 times:

Quoting Willyj (Reply 9):
SQ - has retired all A310s, and 345s are a small fleet for 2 specific routes.

Still, even for 2 specific routes, it's another a/c type. And they had A343 until recently ...



Quoting Willyj (Reply 9):
Also, the LH AB6s are for short to medium haul routes around Europe.

Now yes. But until recently, they were used on Long-haul also, especially to the Middle East.

Quoting Willyj (Reply 9):
I think you misunderstood the point. AF has a large fleet of 343s and 772s, which is odd. Normally airlines choose one or the other

CX, OS, SQ & EK does/did operate both B772 and A343 (until 2004 for SQ)


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5602 times:

Does AF take in maintenance from other companies on 340s and 777s? I know some african airlines send their jets to AF. It sounds like they maintain both the 777 and the 340 themselves...

This kind of operation can also make fleet choices easier, since they make money off other airlines maintenance and can afford to keep technicians available for any aircraft they want.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5578 times:

Maybe they just keep buying planes b/c the old ones get dirty?

-IR


User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5529 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
And you can also farm out maintenance of one type in your fleet to a third party while taking in maintenance of another type in your fleet from other airlines. It can even be a net positive to do it that way. As an example, you could hire out the major service on your 777s, but do all the 340 maintenance yourself, as well as doing 340 service for other smaller airlines.

Yes exactly!
AFM or Air France Maintenance does a lot of third party work too BTW!


User currently offlineGlobeTrekker From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 851 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5506 times:

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 22):
Yes exactly!
AFM or Air France Maintenance does a lot of third party work too BTW!

That's correct, but it's called AFI (Air France industries). AFI does maintenance on the A340 and A330 to the likes of Virgin Atlantic, Air Mauritius, China Eastern, Sri Lankan, Airbus Asset Management, ILFC and Air China to name a few.

Air France Industries

Globe Trekker / AUA



The World Is A Book And Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only A Page
User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5477 times:

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 21):
Maybe they just keep buying planes b/c the old ones get dirty?

-IR

Well If they keep making profit like they do now, they could possibly do that soon!

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 18):
Concerning the PAX a/c, the A343 & the B777 are more complementary rather than competitors.
The B772ER are used on the premium routes with more Business traffic
They will be doon equipped with 4P/49J/211Y (Config. now is 12P/56J/202Y), while the First class has been removed on the A343 with two new configurations : 36J/236Y or 30J/261Y

That is interesting too,
you dedicate one aircraft type for "mass load" and another for regular traffic,
If you do a quick calculation of the yield profit from both types,
let's say a Y ticket is 600€, a J is 5000€ and a P is 10000€,
the (virtual assumed!);
B772 will generate max 411600€ per flight.
A343 (36J)= 321600€
A343 (30J)= 306600€

BTW, I took these references from the website,
it is again noted that the same ticket directly from CDG - LAX - CDG in May or June gives me around 5000€ in J and the same ticket from BRU with the TGV costs me 3000€ in J and 7000€ in P instead of 10k,
BRU <-/-/-/T-G-V/-/-/-> CDG is just a 1H drive straight in T2 and that delivers you a lot of "discount to keep you".


25 JAM747 : Could AF be a customer for the 747-800?
26 Post contains images Bomber996 : As long as it has the option of GE or SNECMA engines I dont see why not. I also heard that they are looking at the new RRJ which has an engines 50% m
27 Post contains links JumboForever : While using GE/SNECMA engine might be part of the problem, there is a very simple reason why AF bought 777 while they were already operating 340. Whil
28 Ikramerica : well seemed to work out in the long run, as now they are loading up on 773ERs rather than 346s and never might have made that choice had they not had
29 Yyz717 : That might be correct. However, AF has continued to order many additional 777's beyond the initial order. So clearly AF is happy with the 777. Hence,
30 IRelayer : Very interesting site thanks for sharing... -IR
31 FlySSC : For sure : NO. AF has 10 A380 on order + 5 oprtions. The actual B744 will be very reduced in the coming years (and possibly retired in a medium term)
32 AirbusA6 : Intersting, as until the mid 90s, AF had generally been a 100% loyal Airbus customer, where the Airbus product was available, and the fact that such a
33 ElGreco : Thank you too for JumboForever, I will take time to read completly all these historical information about Air France. I'm interested to know if there
34 Anxebla : Do you know when AF did the first order to Boeing prior the terrible financial crisis is the 90s?? And for which one plane was made that initial orde
35 FlySSC : Not really true. Air France was "loyal" to Airbus when they didn't have the "choice" (orders imposed by the Politics). Until the mid-90s, AF did buy
36 Anxebla : I want to ask again when AF did that first order to Boeing prior the "terrible" financial crisis in the 90s. It is just curiosity since I don't know n
37 Pihero : A small addition to the - as usual - excellent posts from FlySSC ; Air france fleet policy is generally regarded as the result of the hub system. That
38 YULMRS : For me the main problem is the regional fleet. They have BAE-146 (cityjet) F70, F100 (Régional) and CRJ-700 (Brit air). A fleet harmonisation is requ
39 Phollingsworth : If AF orders the 748I, it will not be for a little while longer. They will want to review the performance of their current a/c mix (773, 388) to dete
40 Post contains images YULMRS : You're right about the 748F, they are likely to order some ... but no pax version. They can even replace the 772 by A359 ... Some will start getting
41 DarthRandall : I was under the impression that most French passengers were like most American passengers in that they can't really tell the difference between, for
42 YULMRS : Ok, I agree with you, most PAX don't care. But, believe me, if you want to fly ORY-TLS (ok, this one is a bit ... Extreme) with an empty plane, do it
43 DarthRandall : I'll agree with you on the A320 and the 737, particularly the older models. The NG ones are nice, though. However, I think the 747s are great to fly o
44 TGV : True and why? This is not a nationalistic thing but something related to cabin comfort (that everybody notices, usually). Look at cabin comfort in EC
45 FlySSC : True. And in Business Class, The A343/A332 are configured 2 x 2 x 2, instead of the "terrible" 2 x 3 x 2 in the B777/B744. When I talk with AF "loyal
46 Post contains images Anxebla : Since CityJet, Régional and Brit Air are Air France's franchises and independent companies I don't know where the problem is. By the way, travelling
47 Post contains links YULMRS : City Jet ? Régional ? Brit AIr ? Independent, since when ???? No, they are entirely owned by AF-KLM. (sorry, in French) May be their BAE-146 are a p
48 Anxebla : from your link: >""CityJet, Une compagnie régionale située en Irlande""< (CityJet, a regional airline from Ireland) >""Elle est filiale à 100 % d'
49 Post contains images TGV : �Verdad? �Me encanta aprenderlo!
50 Post contains links and images Anxebla : ¿aprenderlo? ...It is "saberlo" ...from the v. "saber" (to know in English, "savoir" in French) This is for you: http://www.airliners.net/discussion
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