Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Pinnacle Says NWA Shopping For New Partners  
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4421 times:

"Northwest Airlines is shopping for the lowest bidder to operate a fleet of airplanes like the Northwest Airlink service operated by Pinnacle Airlines Corp.

In an 8-K report filed late Friday with the SEC, Pinnacle (NASDAQ: PNCL - News) reported that Northwest Airlines Inc. (PINK SHEETS: NWACQ - News) has sent a request for proposal to Pinnacle and other airlines asking for proposals to operate a number of 76-seat regional jets comparable to the number of aircraft currently comprising Pinnacle's fleet."

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/051209/1201836.html?.v=1

If I'm not mistaken, that's over 100 76 seaters that NWA is looking to place. 35 of those will replace the RJ85 that Mesaba flies. Remainder would replace the some of the remaining DC9-30 fleet.

No wonder Mesaba is asking for large scale pay/benefit cuts.

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21505 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4407 times:

That answers the question of the other thread then. E170s for one partner, with possible expansion into E190s in the future, to knock out most of the DC9s, with one would assume more mainline A319s filling in for the DC9-50s and some 40s.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4400 times:

Since when would 76 seats be legal under Airlink flying? Has the scope clause been changed at NW?

This is interesting indeed.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4388 times:

It sure is tipping off what is coming in the latest NWA pilot contract, isn't it? 100+ 76 seat A/C? Looks like NWA is getting scope reduced to at least 76 seats. ALPA is hoping for 90 seat and up flying. But if they place another 100 A/C at Airlink, how many mainline pilot/FA jobs get cut?

This doesn't address the future of the current CRJ flying, however. NWA has already rejected leases on 15 of Pinnacle's CRJ's. I wouldn't expect all of the remaining Pinnacle fleet to still be in service when NWA emerges from CH11. Some of these 76 seaters will no doubt replace some 44/50 seaters.


User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4367 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 3):
I wouldn't expect all of the remaining Pinnacle fleet to still be in service when NWA emerges from CH11.

Like UA and US a year ago, I don't see their emergence as certain.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4548 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4356 times:

This sounds consistent with what I've heard. I'd bet on them partnering up with Republic/Chautauqua (sp?)


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 4):
Like UA and US a year ago, I don't see their emergence as certain.

Nothing is certain. But between DL and NW, I see better odds for NW. Remember, NW didn't need debtor-in-possession financing when they enter CH11. DL did, because they burned through every asset first. NW's strength in Asia will help. I still think they are on a quick path out of bankruptcy. DL will make UA's trip look short.

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
This sounds consistent with what I've heard. I'd bet on them partnering up with Republic/Chautauqua

Dunno. This news comes out on the same day that Mesaba told all non-contract employees to expect pay/benefit cuts of close to 20%. It's been reported here that they are looking for similar from organized labor as well. Looks like Mesaba may be trying to get the business. They can use CH11 to slash costs and outbid just about everyone.

But when it's all said and done, NW will go with whoever they want. I doubt anyone has a "inside edge" on this flying right now.


User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2282 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

would these be E90's being looked at, configured with a first class cabin to bring it down to 76 seats, similar to how they got the ARJ's configued to 69 seats??

User currently offlineLUVRSW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4134 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Thread starter):
No wonder Mesaba is asking for large scale pay/benefit cuts.

Have they even offered it to XJ? It wouldn't suprise me if they cut XJ out of the loop altogether. This could easily be used as leverage against NW pilots...I'm sure they would rather fly NEWCO at lower wages than NO wages...then again, that mentality wasn't present with AMFA.


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4127 times:

Didn't XJ recently cancel their order for the rest of their CRJ's?

Mark


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

Quoting LUVRSW (Reply 8):
Have they even offered it to XJ?

As it says in the news article:

"Northwest Airlines Inc. (PINK SHEETS: NWACQ - News) has sent a request for proposal to Pinnacle and other airlines asking for proposals to operate a number of 76-seat regional jets"

Even if NWA wants to cut XJ out, they'd be smart (from a legal standpoint) to include XJ in the list of airlines who receive the RFP. I don't know if they have, but I'll bug my sources and try to find out.



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):
Didn't XJ recently cancel their order for the rest of their CRJ's?

XJ has no orders for any aircraft. They agreed to operate 15 CRJ-200's that NWA had on order, and had first rights to the next 20. XJ took delivery of two before NWA filed bankruptcy. Rumor is that there are at least 2 CRJ-200's in NWA/XJ colors waiting on delivery. My sources tell me that XJ is preparing for the RJ85 to leave, and probably the 2 CRJ's as well.

XJ got burned by having all their eggs in one basket. I can only assume that they are hoping to get the 76 seaters. As I said, I'll try to find out if they did in fact receive an RFP.


User currently offlineNLINK From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

XJ buried themselves with there poor operation.

User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3979 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6):
Remember, NW didn't need debtor-in-possession financing when they enter CH11. DL did, because they burned through every asset first. NW's strength in Asia will help. I still think they are on a quick path out of bankruptcy.

Oddly enough, other's point out NW couldn't secure DIP financing....

what's the real story



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3971 times:

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 7):
would these be E90's being looked at, configured with a first class cabin to bring it down to 76 seats, similar to how they got the ARJ's configued to 69 seats??

Could just be 175s.

N


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3867 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
That answers the question of the other thread then. E170s for one partner, with possible expansion into E190s in the future, to knock out most of the DC9s, with one would assume more mainline A319s filling in for the DC9-50s and some 40s.

Quite plausable.

Quoting JBo (Reply 2):
Since when would 76 seats be legal under Airlink flying? Has the scope clause been changed at NW?

Good question. This looks to be something forced in BK.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6):

But when it's all said and done, NW will go with whoever they want. I doubt anyone has a "inside edge" on this flying right now.

 checkmark 

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
Could just be 175s.

That's what I have been thinking. 76 is a bit tight in the E170, but in the E175, it would be ok and allow a 1st class seat. I know my friends/relatives who are platinum want that big seat! Although, Embraer shows 78 in the 175, two class. (what 4 rows of 1st)?  duck 
http://www.embraercommercialjets.com...ent/ejets/emb_175.asp?tela=layouts

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLUVRSW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

Quoting NLINK (Reply 11):
XJ buried themselves with there poor operation.

Agreed. Their FA's are usually crabbier than 9E's. Their gate agents are usually unprofessional slugs. They have high turnover (every time I fly I see someone new).

[Edited 2005-12-11 16:35:37]

User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3660 times:

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 4):
Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 3):
I wouldn't expect all of the remaining Pinnacle fleet to still be in service when NWA emerges from CH11.

Like UA and US a year ago, I don't see their emergence as certain.

It will be interesting to watch the turnover from within NW management a year from now if they aren't planning on emerging from Ch11 by then because the new pay and benefit cuts as well as pay/performance raises aren't going to be lifted until after they emerge. NW is already dealing with an abnormally high turnover rate, and by this time next year may wear thin on many.

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
This sounds consistent with what I've heard. I'd bet on them partnering up with Republic/Chautauqua

The rumour I've hear is Chautaqua.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6):
But when it's all said and done, NW will go with whoever they want.

Simple beancounter philosophy - they don't care who you are or what you've done for them in the past, they want the lowest bid for an alledged ability to satisfy the requirements within an acceptable margin of deviance.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 12):
Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6):
Remember, NW didn't need debtor-in-possession financing when they enter CH11. DL did, because they burned through every asset first. NW's strength in Asia will help. I still think they are on a quick path out of bankruptcy.

Oddly enough, other's point out NW couldn't secure DIP financing....

what's the real story

Considering that NW owns a lot of their aircraft and their Pacific route system is valued at over $3b, not to mention that they still had $1.5b cash on hand, if anyone denied them dip financing it wasn't because they didn't have any financial assets.


User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4257 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3630 times:

I would have to think Air Wisconsin may become a player in this. If they don't go the embarer route and decide to keep the Avro's on property, which may be more cost efficient I don't know, Air Wisconsin would be a natural choice. Many flight crews have over 20 years experience on the 146, so the transition would be easy, and with them being hqd in ATW, they could actually keep the hangar open rather than close it as is being planned, which would keep tons of jobs in ATW. Plus they would be able to fly their own metal into ATW as well, which is an issue thats been a big concern for ATW employees. And the geography is perfect for them as well.

I don't know if will happen, but ZW would like to expand, which they havent been able to do, and this could be a good opportunity that makes a lot of sense. Whether they would be able to under bid Mesa however, is another story.


User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

Apodino,

All the things you mention are true. But this is going to come down to simple nickels and dimes, not whether or not it 'feels right'.

I badly want ZW to bid for this and to get it. I am a midwesterner and am not liking the flying out east one bit!

Anyway, I see them bidding for this with the CRJ-950/CJR-705. I think the -705 is a 950 airframe and wing, but certified with a small first class cabin and about 75 pax.

Keep your fingers crossed!!!



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3516 times:

Keep in mind that we weren't competitive with Mesa, Shittytaqua, GoJets, and Transstates because ALL of our costs, revenue and everything else came from UA, when our flying was out for bid. We had to factor in EVERY asspect of our operation, unlike Skywest who was just going to add a few planes. If we were to bid for some NW business this would be additional business and our bid would not have to include certain costs because we have an operation in place......I don't think I explained that very well but we are in a competitive position for this business. Even though Republic is probably trying to get this business I would say AWAC is going to give them a run for their money.


Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Hey dude (I know your name, but won't say anything here....),

I have heard exactly what you are saying from others. They have also said that if United (or anyone else for that matter) wanted us to bid that our cost projection would be far lower than it was and that we could make a far more competitive bid. This is why we NEED to be with more than one carrier.

Look at Mesaba. We were really lucky that our owners had the sense to get in with US Airways or we would all be out jobs right now. But Mesaba might be in trouble. They are also a one-airline contracter and now are being hung out to dry by the 'mother ship', NWA.

I REALLY want us to be competitive with this NWA flying bid. Even if it is not for MSP, I would love to get back closer to home.

You hearing anything we're not hearing?



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3448 times:

I wish I was hearing something! Fact is that when it gets quiet up in ATW, things happen. I did post the question on our discussion board, check it out when you can. You are right, we totally NEED this business. It's not that I want to see anyone go under but right now it's a dog eat dog world. Fact is that Mesa is going to contineu to screw all of us until we take back business. I wonder if NW would even want Mesa or any of the bottom feeders? I seriously hope that we get the EMB190, fit it with F class, and become the airline we were back in the day! It was nice when on a ZW flight you would get a meal! I know coach never will but even if we did a nice buy-on-board for Y class, and had something to offer F class. Could we actually take the Avro's and put seats on them? Why do I have the feeling there is something in some contact somewhere that says if someone is flying the Avro it can ony have a certain amount of seats on them.

Oh well, I'm just waiting to hear from HDQ and see what's up!!



Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Um, yeah.... meals would be sweet!

At SWISS we had hot meals for pax. A snack on most flights was standard and at the right time it was a real meal. No joke. We also had crew meals. Not to belabor the point, but I almost never bought food at my last airline because we had crew meals and we also had left over pax meals.

Yup, we need the business. I too am sure that something will happen and I think it will be something good. The only question is when. I have moved out of Appleton, but if we had some other flying out of DTW or MSP I might well move back. Well, if it were MSP I would just stay there. But anything out of DTW and I think I would commute from ATW.

Let's keep hoping. Not that I want anything bad for anyone else. I don't. But I do hope for good things for my own carrier.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3295 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 12):
Oddly enough, other's point out NW couldn't secure DIP financing....

Where? Give me a link or a quote, please. As I said earlier, unlike DL, NWA didn't burn up every asset before filing.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
Considering that NW owns a lot of their aircraft and their Pacific route system is valued at over $3b, not to mention that they still had $1.5b cash on hand, if anyone denied them dip financing it wasn't because they didn't have any financial assets.

My point exactly.....

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
Like UA and US a year ago, I don't see their emergence as certain.

Somehow, it was made to look like this was my quote in an earlier thread. Let me make it clear here that it was not. This was DLKAPA's statement, not mine.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 17):
If they don't go the embarer route and decide to keep the Avro's on property, which may be more cost efficient I don't know, Air Wisconsin would be a natural choice.

Avro's are gone. I've heard it straight from a VP. Mesaba is planning for a life after the RJ85 goes to the desert. Fuel and reliability has killed that fleet.

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 18):
But this is going to come down to simple nickels and dimes, not whether or not it 'feels right'.

Amen, that's all that matters to NWA right now. Who ever gives them the best opportunity to make regoinal flying profitable.

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 22):
At SWISS we had hot meals for pax. A snack on most flights was standard and at the right time it was a real meal. No joke. We also had crew meals

Don't forget that you were not within the EU, so fares remained high, plus you had the swiss government to bail you out once. As much as I like the concept of actual service onboard, that wasn't enough to make the first restructure successful, and now Swiss is just a sattelite of LH, instead of the industry leader that SR once was.


User currently offlineMidex461 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3234 times:

Lowest bidder? I find myself thinking of Mesa. They are, after-all the lowballer of the industry! On the other hand, JO usually negotiates fee for departure contracts, which may not be that attractive to NW right now.


Opinions and views expressed are MINE and do NOT represent the views of US Airways
25 TOLtommy : I suspect Mesaba thinks they need to be able undercut Mesa. I think XJ is running very scared right now. I wonder if chances for their survival dimini
26 Acidradio : They do. There is no growth in Saab flying and ARJ growth is more and more limited, which is why adding CRJs was so important to XJ's business. Even
27 Apodino : I have found the 146's in our fleet to be a lot more reliable than the CRJ's. Besides, if they do send them to the desert, how do they fly into ASE?
28 TOLtommy : I've never understood this infatuation with ASE. What makes more sense, keeping an inefficient and unreliable fleet, or closing the ASE station? NWA
29 We're Nuts : I think the idea is to encourage employees not to stay at Mesaba for 12 years, or at least not on the ramp.
30 TOLtommy : Exactly. Where is it said that any company has an obligation to pay a wage for relatively unskilled labor so high for someone to "feed a family"? If
31 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: The Business Journal of Milwaukee Northwest Seeking Bids For Regional Service http://www.bizjournals.com/industrie...s/2005/12/19/milwaukee_
32 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: The Minneapolis/St. Paul Business Journal NWA To Regionals: Cut Costs Or Be Cut http://www.bizjournals.com/industrie.../2005/12/19/twincitie
33 TOLtommy : Thx for the link. I think its funny that the so called "analysts" think the E170 is the plane of choice. Given that Bombarier needs to salvage the los
34 Indy : Perhaps the E170 will be to regional carriers what the 737 has been for some LCCs. I think the E170 will provide the perfect match between profitabili
35 FCYTravis : Given that the C-series is a paper airplane that may not even be launched, the E-Jets series is a much more likely choice.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
OU Shopping For New Planes posted Mon Sep 19 2005 23:13:20 by TripleDelta
Airlines Shopping For New Boeings? posted Thu Jun 2 2005 17:35:31 by BCAInfoSys
TG Says It’s Ready For New Routes, More Plane posted Mon Aug 12 2002 08:26:01 by Magicalchaz
Enormous Power For New NWA Biz Seats Needed. posted Mon Dec 19 2005 01:15:24 by Redneckslim
New Airline For New Zealand posted Tue Nov 14 2006 19:07:21 by Flyjetstar
NWA Hiring F/A's For DTW posted Sun Nov 12 2006 16:43:11 by 1rocco
PHX Bids For New US Center posted Wed Nov 1 2006 23:19:20 by Steeler83
Opportunities For New Commercial Pilots In Europe? posted Tue Oct 31 2006 03:38:15 by JAM747
BA Sparks $10bn Battle For New Fleet posted Wed Oct 18 2006 20:17:39 by Justloveplanes
Destinations For New SQ 773ER posted Wed Oct 4 2006 08:28:51 by Ctang