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Southwest's Next NYC-area Airport? SWF?  
User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3253 posts, RR: 15
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4309 times:

Now that Southwest has been at ISP for some time, and the NYC-area being the nation's largest O&D market, it's inevitable that they would move into another airport. Which airport is the next likely candidate? SWF? HPN? Keep in mind, in the nation's 2nd largest O&D market, Southwest currently serves 4 LA-area airports.

From what I can see, Newburgh/Stewart (SWF) has the greatest potential. It appears to have the greatest potential with its long runway and large master-planned terminal. The SWF catchment area would appear to have a minimal affect on Southwest's existing catchment areas at ALB, BDL and ISP.
http://www.stewartintlairport.com/pdfs/terminal_plan.pdf

As for White Plains (HPN), the demographics of the catchment area are also favorable with minimal impact to the other stations. However, the terminal facilities appear to be limited as are the runways. There also doesn't appear to be a master plan for the airport.

Anyone familiar with Southwest, SWF or HPN, please give your input!


.......
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4263 times:

SWF sounds like a fantastic airport. It seems like a perfect alternate for the crazy EWR, LGA & JFK. We looked at it for international widebody charters.

User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

Well living close to SWF, I would hope that SWF would be Southewest's next choice! SWF is a great airport and it has a great master plan for expansion in the future if traffic picks up.

I have seen Southwest advertising in Poughkeepsie, which is where I live, cituated about 30 minutes from SWF and a semi large city in the state.

Hopefully if Southwest has intrest in another NYC area airport they will choose SWF!

[Edited 2005-12-13 05:33:14]


No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4210 times:

It certainly wouldn't be HPN, because HPN has slot issues.


I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16810 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4205 times:

Quote:
From what I can see, Newburgh/Stewart (SWF) has the greatest potential. It appears to have the greatest potential with its long runway and large master-planned terminal. The SWF catchment area would appear to have a minimal affect on Southwest's existing catchment areas at ALB, BDL and ISP.

It does compete with Albany, and it's on the outer fringes of the Metropolitan area in perhaps the lowest income County of the Area. SWF has been losing carriers recently, it's a great facility but at 55 miles North of Manhattan it's in the boonies.

I know the area well, I shop at the Adams Supermarkert in Newburgh, I've stayed at the Newburgh Airport Courtyard 2-3 times. My Aunt lives in Woodstock Ulster County, the Orange County Region is beautiful but very economically depressed.

Newburgh is a tough sell for airlines though, and Westchester County Airport is out of the question since the nearby Nimbys are very influential.

One thing about SWF, you have to watch out for the deer! They are all over the airport grounds since Hunters can't get in there, you can see deer right in front of the passenger terminal.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5167 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4194 times:

A friend of mine is a pilot with AA and used to fly into SWF a lot back in the early 90s. He thought that, like many metropolitan areas, the sprawl would spread, and SWF would become the New York area's 4th major airport.

HPN and ISP have limitations, whereas SWF has plenty of space and a runway capable of handling widebody aircraft.


User currently offlineExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting Jmc1975 (Thread starter):
The SWF catchment area would appear to have a minimal affect on Southwest's existing catchment areas at ALB, BDL and ISP.

What are you including in SWF's catchment area? If there's enough demand from the north Jersey/Westchester and north areas, it could work, and I'd love to see WN try it.

But there's no way SWF would have any material draw from New York itself - it would be even less likely than New Yorkers going to ISP. There is no public transportation from NYC to SWF (at least ISP theoretically has a LIRR connection with a relatively cheap cab on the LI end), and taking a cab or black car would be prohibitively expensive, more than offsetting any fare advantage from airlines operating out of the Big 3 airports. You have to keep in mind how few New Yorkers own cars. I guess they could get some draw from the Bronx, but that's about it.

I noticed in the "Executive Summary" of the Master Plan a proposal to extend Metro-North to SWF. Not a bad idea, but again, given how few New Yorkers use the LIRR option to go to ISP right now, I'm just not seeing it as a major draw. Also, there's a problem here in that you don't even have a "one-seat" ride into Manhattan, but have to change at Secaucus Junction for another train to Penn.

(There's a flaw - or at least an oversight - in the Executive Summary. It says that tying into the Port Jervis Line would make a connection to Grand Central Terminal possible. The Port Jervis Line doesn't connect into the rest of the Metro-North system at any point, but connects only to New Jersey Transit's Bergen line. That would allow a transfer to Penn, but none of the NJT system goes to GCT - it all goes to Penn.)

The idea of overseas charters is intriuging, though, especially since they could get around the whole transportation issue by simply packaging in a bus transfer as part of the deal. I don't think they have C&I right now, and the Executive Summary doesn't specifically mention C&I, but since it does mention "international flights" being supported by an expansion of the existing terminal, I'm presuming that unless they plan to limit themselves only to pre-clearance destinations, that they'd address this.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5104 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4057 times:

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 6):
given how few New Yorkers use the LIRR option to go to ISP right now

Do you have any numbers? On the relatively-few times I have passed through Ronkonkoma, there seems to be a goodly number of folks wheeling suitcases to the cabs/vans, and I routinely see folks with suitcases on the Ronkonkoma train when I have to connect through Jamaica. Not as many as I see walking over to Airtrain, for sure, but an identifiable number nonetheless.

None of the public-transit routes to the airports are convenient for me from the east side of manhattan, so I usually just try to fly from LGA and usually take a cab there. $25 and 20-30 minutes at the times that I typically go.


User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4056 times:

I think ExFATboy is right on the money. The competitive environment has changed too much for WN to operate ONLY out of airports such as SWF.

My guess is that Southwest will be in LGA by the end of 2006. As ATA reverts back to primarily charter ops I think WN will take over the MDW-LGA route and maybe DCA. I've seen the connecting traffic generated by the code share alone and I can't see WN giving that up.

Southwest could minimize the systemwide delays by running a stand alone shuttle operation such as DAL-HOU.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21504 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3989 times:

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 6):
But there's no way SWF would have any material draw from New York itself - it would be even less likely than New Yorkers going to ISP. There is no public transportation from NYC to SWF (at least ISP theoretically has a LIRR connection with a relatively cheap cab on the LI end), and taking a cab or black car would be prohibitively expensive, more than offsetting any fare advantage from airlines operating out of the Big 3 airports. You have to keep in mind how few New Yorkers own cars. I guess they could get some draw from the Bronx, but that's about it.

I know that Metro-North runs to Beacon, and if there isn't a shuttle bus between the Beacon station and SWF, it wouldn't be hard to start one.

That said, if WN chooses to go into SWF, they could forget about getting much traffic from the city. Why trek all the way out to SWF or ISP when you could fly B6 from JFK, LGA or EWR? Admittedly, WN flies to more destinations than B6, but there are other LCCs serving the big three airports (TZ, F9, FL, etc.) to fill in the gaps.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

I remember hearing that studies where going on for a MTA rail link to SWF from their regular Hudson line.


No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineFFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3929 times:

There are 300,000 people across the river in relatively high-income Dutchess County. Not to even talking about Putnam and Westchester in the South. Or Rockland south on SWF side of the river. All these people hate the drive down to LGA or especially JFK. Rocklanders, of course, would rather drive to EWR.

User currently offlineDartland From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3889 times:
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Exactly, SWF would not draw from NYC proper, but there's no need to. I don't think it would turn into a WN hub, but certainly a handful of flights a day would work. Look at MHT -- an hour north of Boston, so it's not really pulling anyone from Boston proper, but the Manchester/Southern NH metro area is decent size and WN has a large operation there (admittedley bigger than SWF, but not THAT different).

As for HPN -- that's laughable! The terminal is too small for them (although perfect for today's use), slot restrictions, NIMBY's on you 24/7, curfews, etc. I personally love that little airport (having grown up 5 miles away), but its not exactly on anyones expansion list, and for good reason.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13029 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

I think the large charters services out of SWF would be a sound idea, especialy if not going to NY City and would take some load off of EWR. SWF would have no problem handling even the A380 as it is also a base for the NY State Air National Guard and operates a fleet of C-5A's series out of there. (one time going by there, saw 5 of them parked side by side - very impressive).
As to WN at SWF, I don't think so. Other discounters have tried to ops there and have failed. They would be better off going for the ATA slots at LGA but for the slow turnraound and traffic/delays issues.


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3834 times:

Well, at 86 miles from ALB it could be a bit close for WN. PVD and MHT are 83 miles. but you have BOS and all it's population in the middle. Based on the latest WN moves, I'd suspect you'd see them jump right into NYC - EWR is the most logical choice if there a couple gates available...

User currently offlineLY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 857 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3831 times:

Quoting FFlyer (Reply 11):
There are 300,000 people across the river in relatively high-income Dutchess County. Not to even talking about Putnam and Westchester in the South. Or Rockland south on SWF side of the river. All these people hate the drive down to LGA or especially JFK. Rocklanders, of course, would rather drive to EWR.

I used to live in Rockland (grew up there) and I flew into and out of SWF once. As options are limited, it's just not a very attractive option for people in the lower Hudson valley. It's just as easy, if traffic is light, to go to EWR, and likely cheaper (although if WN was there, it would change that part of the equation).

As others pointed out, this wouldn't be a draw for NYC passengers. They consider anything beyond the Bronx to be "upstate" and the prospect of driving or taking a train over an hour north to get on a WN flight is really not going to happen for many people.

SWF also has a small terminal and although I-87 runs right next to the airport, I don't remember the roads leading to the terminal being built up enough to handle extra traffic brought in by WN.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13):
SWF would have no problem handling even the A380

Yeah, I think it's even an emergency Space Shuttle landing site! seriously!  Smile



That's why we're here.
User currently offlineAkjetBlue From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 790 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3782 times:

i don't think WN is the only one looking at SWF. B6 is being asked to come in as well...

Article:
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/a...S/507160304/1003&template=printart


Hopes are higher for Stewart to land lowfare airline
By Craig Wolf
Poughkeepsie Journal

July 16, 2005

NEW WINDSOR — Getting one of the major low-fare airlines into Stewart International Airport is looking more like a question of when rather than whether.

Stewart management said as much this week, and so did JetBlue Airways, one of the leading candidates.

"Newburgh is a location that is very appealing to us and ultimately we would like to serve it," said Todd Burke, a spokesman for New York-based JetBlue. "That said, it's not on the really near-term radar screen."

Contrast that remark with one made in 2001 when JetBlue was a year old and staging all its flights out of JFK International Airport in New York to various destinations. Stewart was too close to JFK.

Back then, Fiona Morrisson, spokeswoman, said, "Stewart's probably not far enough away for us to consider in these early days." But over the last four years, JetBlue has diversified its strategy beyond JFK.

Airlines never say when until the decision is final, said Tanya Vanasse, Stewart's marketing director, who told the Greater Southern Dutchess Chamber of Commerce Wednesday she was confident that JetBlue, Airtran Airways or Southwest Airlines would announce Stewart service in six to 12 months. She softened that timeline Friday after learning that a lawsuit still hampers state plans for a new road into Stewart.

Possible deals

Kevin Schorr of consulting firm Campbell-Hill Aviation Group said it would be easier for JetBlue or AirTran to enter Stewart before the road comes than Southwest, but that lack of the road was "not a deal-breaker" for Southwest.

A spokesman for Southwest had no specifics on Stewart Friday. At AirTran, spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver said, "I can't speak specifically with regard to any of the airports we meet with," but there are "no concrete plans."

"It's just a matter of someone making a wise decision," said Jim Wright, a New Windsor resident who chairs the advisory Stewart Airport Commission. "Everyone in the country is competing for more flights and more seats and more destinations."

U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-New York, said in an e-mail: "We are burning up the phone lines," working with Stewart President Chuck Seliga "to lobby JetBlue to choose Stewart Airport and I continue to feel good about our chances."

Friday, the airport said June passengers totaled 35,241, a decline of 14.9 percent from June 2004.

Craig Wolf can be reached at cwolf@poughkeepsiejournal.com



Save a horse! Ride a Cowboy!
User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3671 times:

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 14):
I'd suspect you'd see them jump right into NYC - EWR is the most logical choice if there a couple gates available...

Which airport has more ATC delays, EWR or LGA?


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3606 times:

Quoting N200WN (Reply 17):
Which airport has more ATC delays, EWR or LGA?

Thats similar to asking which do you prefer - eating top soil or sticking pins in your eyes?


User currently offlineBigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3496 times:

Quoting LY4XELD (Reply 15):
SWF also has a small terminal and although I-87 runs right next to the airport, I don't remember the roads leading to the terminal being built up enough to handle extra traffic brought in by WN.

The roads are big enough to cope, however I don't think there are enough parking facilites.

They could build an extra exit off the Thruway right into the airport near the ANG base, and could also bring a road in off I-84 at the other end of the airport.


User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2970 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3469 times:

SWF wouldn't be able to draw the "New Yorker crowd." I definitely see them pulling some people locally such as Westchester, Orange, Putnam, Dutchess and Rockland, but the population there is more or less residential. There is some industry but it's certainly not NYC. The geography of the tri-state area shows very much in the way of large businesses being based in the the five boros, with the outside neighborhoods only being white-fence communities. Additionally, JFK, LGA and ISP are able to cater to Long Islanders (of which there are 3 million). SWF is unable to do this.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3276 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

Quoting Jmc1975 (Thread starter):
Southwest currently serves 4 LA-area airports

This reminds me to ask something I've been meaning to ask for a long time. It sure seems that WN is a little gunshy (while I'm no WN fan, I certainly understand why) at going into large, international/hub airports, prefering to keep to the feeder airports (see ORD, BOS, JFK/LGA/EWR, DFW, MIA, ATL) so why is it that it serves LAX, and seemingly does fairly well there?


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16810 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3448 times:

Im trying to find the article right now but the Chairman of the Port Authority was quoted in an article about Jetblue's new EWR service that he expected WN to serve EWR within the next two years.

WN got burned bad by B6 with JFK, WN has been kicking themselves ever since because of their decision to fly to Islip instead of JFK which was wide open at the time. Jetblue cut them off from the NYC market by serving JFK, that was a major factor in WN's decision to go into PHL instead of Allentown or Atlantic City.

They (WN) can't compete with the Jetblues and Airtrans flying to these airports 55 miles outside of the region when B6 and FL are flying right into congested airports like DCA, LGA, EWR, BOS and making tons of money.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3424 times:

All of this makes me wonder what Southwest Airlines and ATA have for long term plans at La Guardia?

KAHALA777


User currently offlineLGAtoIND From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

I would bet that we see WN at LGA in the next few years. I have seen a lot of people take the ATA codeshare LGA-MDW. Id say out of LGA, WN could make MDW, BWI, and HOU work very well.

25 ComatMan : I am looking at this and wondering why has no one mentioned TTN or Trenton, this airport is wide open only Pan Am serves it currently. I am sure the D
26 Floorrunner : I don't think this would be likely. I would see them at ABE or ACY before TTN
27 A330323X : NIMBYs. TTN doesn't want service.
28 RC135U : I was thinking about TTN myself, and add West Windsor, Lawrenceville, Hope- well and Princeton to the high per-capita list. We've seen lots of carrie
29 Spinkid : Northern Fairfield County in CT is also drawn to Newburgh. From Danbury it's only a 50 minute ride to SWF, much shorter and stress free than driving t
30 N200WN : Read on... Think DET. That was certainly the driving force. Some think it was to kill off US, but if that were the intent I think WN would have enter
31 Dragon-wings : Would this have any effect on Islip? I would hate to loose Southwest to LGA.
32 Rampart : HA HA! too funny Much as I like SWF and their plan, TTN does seem a more plausible choice. I tried SWF just because I wanted to try something new and
33 BigOrange : Eastwind had service from TTN to ATL, and couldn't make it. The problem with service from TTN now is that most people in the catchment area are freque
34 2travel2know : Does SWF have an international arrivals facility within the main passenger terminal?
35 Post contains images Tornado82 : Considering ISP's geographical location VS Manhattan and whatnot, ABE seems to be the most logical/balanced choice, sans just going straight at LGA.
36 RC135U : Was that nonstop service? Thought they one stop service through one of the NC cities - was it GSO or RDU? I live fairly close to TTN and those Eastwi
37 Gsoflyer : I thought that all the nonstop eastwind service was out of GSO and that all TTN was a one stop through GSO as GSO was the pseud-hub for the 5 planes
38 UncGSO : All ATL service on Eastwind was from GSO. TTN had GSO, BOS, and I think MCO at one time. If i remember correctly, from GSO they flew to TTN, BOS, PHL
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