Jmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3334 posts, RR: 14 Posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4657 times:
Now that Southwest has been at ISP for some time, and the NYC-area being the nation's largest O&D market, it's inevitable that they would move into another airport. Which airport is the next likely candidate? SWF? HPN? Keep in mind, in the nation's 2nd largest O&D market, Southwest currently serves 4 LA-area airports.
From what I can see, Newburgh/Stewart (SWF) has the greatest potential. It appears to have the greatest potential with its long runway and large master-planned terminal. The SWF catchment area would appear to have a minimal affect on Southwest's existing catchment areas at ALB, BDL and ISP. http://www.stewartintlairport.com/pdfs/terminal_plan.pdf
As for White Plains (HPN), the demographics of the catchment area are also favorable with minimal impact to the other stations. However, the terminal facilities appear to be limited as are the runways. There also doesn't appear to be a master plan for the airport.
Anyone familiar with Southwest, SWF or HPN, please give your input!
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 17228 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4553 times:
Quote: From what I can see, Newburgh/Stewart (SWF) has the greatest potential. It appears to have the greatest potential with its long runway and large master-planned terminal. The SWF catchment area would appear to have a minimal affect on Southwest's existing catchment areas at ALB, BDL and ISP.
It does compete with Albany, and it's on the outer fringes of the Metropolitan area in perhaps the lowest income County of the Area. SWF has been losing carriers recently, it's a great facility but at 55 miles North of Manhattan it's in the boonies.
I know the area well, I shop at the Adams Supermarkert in Newburgh, I've stayed at the Newburgh Airport Courtyard 2-3 times. My Aunt lives in Woodstock Ulster County, the Orange County Region is beautiful but very economically depressed.
Newburgh is a tough sell for airlines though, and Westchester County Airport is out of the question since the nearby Nimbys are very influential.
One thing about SWF, you have to watch out for the deer! They are all over the airport grounds since Hunters can't get in there, you can see deer right in front of the passenger terminal.
Ckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5552 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4542 times:
A friend of mine is a pilot with AA and used to fly into SWF a lot back in the early 90s. He thought that, like many metropolitan areas, the sprawl would spread, and SWF would become the New York area's 4th major airport.
HPN and ISP have limitations, whereas SWF has plenty of space and a runway capable of handling widebody aircraft.
ExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4493 times:
Quoting Jmc1975 (Thread starter): The SWF catchment area would appear to have a minimal affect on Southwest's existing catchment areas at ALB, BDL and ISP.
What are you including in SWF's catchment area? If there's enough demand from the north Jersey/Westchester and north areas, it could work, and I'd love to see WN try it.
But there's no way SWF would have any material draw from New York itself - it would be even less likely than New Yorkers going to ISP. There is no public transportation from NYC to SWF (at least ISP theoretically has a LIRR connection with a relatively cheap cab on the LI end), and taking a cab or black car would be prohibitively expensive, more than offsetting any fare advantage from airlines operating out of the Big 3 airports. You have to keep in mind how few New Yorkers own cars. I guess they could get some draw from the Bronx, but that's about it.
I noticed in the "Executive Summary" of the Master Plan a proposal to extend Metro-North to SWF. Not a bad idea, but again, given how few New Yorkers use the LIRR option to go to ISP right now, I'm just not seeing it as a major draw. Also, there's a problem here in that you don't even have a "one-seat" ride into Manhattan, but have to change at Secaucus Junction for another train to Penn.
(There's a flaw - or at least an oversight - in the Executive Summary. It says that tying into the Port Jervis Line would make a connection to Grand Central Terminal possible. The Port Jervis Line doesn't connect into the rest of the Metro-North system at any point, but connects only to New Jersey Transit's Bergen line. That would allow a transfer to Penn, but none of the NJT system goes to GCT - it all goes to Penn.)
The idea of overseas charters is intriuging, though, especially since they could get around the whole transportation issue by simply packaging in a bus transfer as part of the deal. I don't think they have C&I right now, and the Executive Summary doesn't specifically mention C&I, but since it does mention "international flights" being supported by an expansion of the existing terminal, I'm presuming that unless they plan to limit themselves only to pre-clearance destinations, that they'd address this.
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4405 times:
Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 6): given how few New Yorkers use the LIRR option to go to ISP right now
Do you have any numbers? On the relatively-few times I have passed through Ronkonkoma, there seems to be a goodly number of folks wheeling suitcases to the cabs/vans, and I routinely see folks with suitcases on the Ronkonkoma train when I have to connect through Jamaica. Not as many as I see walking over to Airtrain, for sure, but an identifiable number nonetheless.
None of the public-transit routes to the airports are convenient for me from the east side of manhattan, so I usually just try to fly from LGA and usually take a cab there. $25 and 20-30 minutes at the times that I typically go.
N200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 786 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4404 times:
I think ExFATboy is right on the money. The competitive environment has changed too much for WN to operate ONLY out of airports such as SWF.
My guess is that Southwest will be in LGA by the end of 2006. As ATA reverts back to primarily charter ops I think WN will take over the MDW-LGA route and maybe DCA. I've seen the connecting traffic generated by the code share alone and I can't see WN giving that up.
Southwest could minimize the systemwide delays by running a stand alone shuttle operation such as DAL-HOU.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 22392 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4337 times:
Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 6): But there's no way SWF would have any material draw from New York itself - it would be even less likely than New Yorkers going to ISP. There is no public transportation from NYC to SWF (at least ISP theoretically has a LIRR connection with a relatively cheap cab on the LI end), and taking a cab or black car would be prohibitively expensive, more than offsetting any fare advantage from airlines operating out of the Big 3 airports. You have to keep in mind how few New Yorkers own cars. I guess they could get some draw from the Bronx, but that's about it.
I know that Metro-North runs to Beacon, and if there isn't a shuttle bus between the Beacon station and SWF, it wouldn't be hard to start one.
That said, if WN chooses to go into SWF, they could forget about getting much traffic from the city. Why trek all the way out to SWF or ISP when you could fly B6 from JFK, LGA or EWR? Admittedly, WN flies to more destinations than B6, but there are other LCCs serving the big three airports (TZ, F9, FL, etc.) to fill in the gaps.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
FFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4277 times:
There are 300,000 people across the river in relatively high-income Dutchess County. Not to even talking about Putnam and Westchester in the South. Or Rockland south on SWF side of the river. All these people hate the drive down to LGA or especially JFK. Rocklanders, of course, would rather drive to EWR.
Dartland From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 646 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4237 times:
Exactly, SWF would not draw from NYC proper, but there's no need to. I don't think it would turn into a WN hub, but certainly a handful of flights a day would work. Look at MHT -- an hour north of Boston, so it's not really pulling anyone from Boston proper, but the Manchester/Southern NH metro area is decent size and WN has a large operation there (admittedley bigger than SWF, but not THAT different).
As for HPN -- that's laughable! The terminal is too small for them (although perfect for today's use), slot restrictions, NIMBY's on you 24/7, curfews, etc. I personally love that little airport (having grown up 5 miles away), but its not exactly on anyones expansion list, and for good reason.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13510 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4219 times:
I think the large charters services out of SWF would be a sound idea, especialy if not going to NY City and would take some load off of EWR. SWF would have no problem handling even the A380 as it is also a base for the NY State Air National Guard and operates a fleet of C-5A's series out of there. (one time going by there, saw 5 of them parked side by side - very impressive).
As to WN at SWF, I don't think so. Other discounters have tried to ops there and have failed. They would be better off going for the ATA slots at LGA but for the slow turnraound and traffic/delays issues.
PVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3444 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4182 times:
Well, at 86 miles from ALB it could be a bit close for WN. PVD and MHT are 83 miles. but you have BOS and all it's population in the middle. Based on the latest WN moves, I'd suspect you'd see them jump right into NYC - EWR is the most logical choice if there a couple gates available...
LY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 858 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4179 times:
Quoting FFlyer (Reply 11): There are 300,000 people across the river in relatively high-income Dutchess County. Not to even talking about Putnam and Westchester in the South. Or Rockland south on SWF side of the river. All these people hate the drive down to LGA or especially JFK. Rocklanders, of course, would rather drive to EWR.
I used to live in Rockland (grew up there) and I flew into and out of SWF once. As options are limited, it's just not a very attractive option for people in the lower Hudson valley. It's just as easy, if traffic is light, to go to EWR, and likely cheaper (although if WN was there, it would change that part of the equation).
As others pointed out, this wouldn't be a draw for NYC passengers. They consider anything beyond the Bronx to be "upstate" and the prospect of driving or taking a train over an hour north to get on a WN flight is really not going to happen for many people.
SWF also has a small terminal and although I-87 runs right next to the airport, I don't remember the roads leading to the terminal being built up enough to handle extra traffic brought in by WN.
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13): SWF would have no problem handling even the A380
Yeah, I think it's even an emergency Space Shuttle landing site! seriously!
Hopes are higher for Stewart to land lowfare airline
By Craig Wolf Poughkeepsie Journal
July 16, 2005
NEW WINDSOR — Getting one of the major low-fare airlines into Stewart International Airport is looking more like a question of when rather than whether.
Stewart management said as much this week, and so did JetBlue Airways, one of the leading candidates.
"Newburgh is a location that is very appealing to us and ultimately we would like to serve it," said Todd Burke, a spokesman for New York-based JetBlue. "That said, it's not on the really near-term radar screen."
Contrast that remark with one made in 2001 when JetBlue was a year old and staging all its flights out of JFK International Airport in New York to various destinations. Stewart was too close to JFK.
Back then, Fiona Morrisson, spokeswoman, said, "Stewart's probably not far enough away for us to consider in these early days." But over the last four years, JetBlue has diversified its strategy beyond JFK.
Airlines never say when until the decision is final, said Tanya Vanasse, Stewart's marketing director, who told the Greater Southern Dutchess Chamber of Commerce Wednesday she was confident that JetBlue, Airtran Airways or Southwest Airlines would announce Stewart service in six to 12 months. She softened that timeline Friday after learning that a lawsuit still hampers state plans for a new road into Stewart.
Kevin Schorr of consulting firm Campbell-Hill Aviation Group said it would be easier for JetBlue or AirTran to enter Stewart before the road comes than Southwest, but that lack of the road was "not a deal-breaker" for Southwest.
A spokesman for Southwest had no specifics on Stewart Friday. At AirTran, spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver said, "I can't speak specifically with regard to any of the airports we meet with," but there are "no concrete plans."
"It's just a matter of someone making a wise decision," said Jim Wright, a New Windsor resident who chairs the advisory Stewart Airport Commission. "Everyone in the country is competing for more flights and more seats and more destinations."
U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-New York, said in an e-mail: "We are burning up the phone lines," working with Stewart President Chuck Seliga "to lobby JetBlue to choose Stewart Airport and I continue to feel good about our chances."
Friday, the airport said June passengers totaled 35,241, a decline of 14.9 percent from June 2004.
Craig Wolf can be reached at firstname.lastname@example.org
BigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2403 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3844 times:
Quoting LY4XELD (Reply 15): SWF also has a small terminal and although I-87 runs right next to the airport, I don't remember the roads leading to the terminal being built up enough to handle extra traffic brought in by WN.
The roads are big enough to cope, however I don't think there are enough parking facilites.
They could build an extra exit off the Thruway right into the airport near the ANG base, and could also bring a road in off I-84 at the other end of the airport.
JetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3103 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3817 times:
SWF wouldn't be able to draw the "New Yorker crowd." I definitely see them pulling some people locally such as Westchester, Orange, Putnam, Dutchess and Rockland, but the population there is more or less residential. There is some industry but it's certainly not NYC. The geography of the tri-state area shows very much in the way of large businesses being based in the the five boros, with the outside neighborhoods only being white-fence communities. Additionally, JFK, LGA and ISP are able to cater to Long Islanders (of which there are 3 million). SWF is unable to do this.
This reminds me to ask something I've been meaning to ask for a long time. It sure seems that WN is a little gunshy (while I'm no WN fan, I certainly understand why) at going into large, international/hub airports, prefering to keep to the feeder airports (see ORD, BOS, JFK/LGA/EWR, DFW, MIA, ATL) so why is it that it serves LAX, and seemingly does fairly well there?
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 17228 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3796 times:
Im trying to find the article right now but the Chairman of the Port Authority was quoted in an article about Jetblue's new EWR service that he expected WN to serve EWR within the next two years.
WN got burned bad by B6 with JFK, WN has been kicking themselves ever since because of their decision to fly to Islip instead of JFK which was wide open at the time. Jetblue cut them off from the NYC market by serving JFK, that was a major factor in WN's decision to go into PHL instead of Allentown or Atlantic City.
They (WN) can't compete with the Jetblues and Airtrans flying to these airports 55 miles outside of the region when B6 and FL are flying right into congested airports like DCA, LGA, EWR, BOS and making tons of money.