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AA's DAL Service Schedule Released  
User currently offlineLY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 857 posts, RR: 15
Posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7420 times:

http://www.aa.com/apps/netSAAver/Vie...ry&itemDescriptor=PromotionContent

Service includes STL, MCI, AUS, and SAT


That's why we're here.
96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7381 times:

AA is also dropping LGB, GRB, RST, PVD, and most importantly, LIM, from its DFW schedule.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3969 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7363 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

maybe this will entice us to add a 2nd IAH-LIM flight!!!
what is AA going to do with their slots at LGB?



okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineLY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 857 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7361 times:

Also of note, AA will cancel the following nonstop service from DFW:

DFW to:
Long Beach, CA
Providence, RI
Lima, Peru
Green Bay, WI
Rochester, MN

Downgrade/Reduction of service to the following cities from DFW:

St. Louis
Kansas City
Austin
College Station
Shreveport, LA
Cincinnati
San Antonio
Killeen, TX

And:

Toledo, OH will not be reinstated as previously planned

-LY

[Edited 2005-12-13 18:25:19]


That's why we're here.
User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7350 times:

2 class md80's for interstate and 50 seat rj's for intrastate. I thought there would be a more radical approach and not give Southwest the rj's for a target in advertising. Obviously AA is using brand loyalty/freq flier miles as the main weapon with a little First Class thrown in. Minimal cost entry easy to terminate.

User currently offlineStl1326 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7262 times:

Quoting LY4XELD (Reply 3):
Downgrade/Reduction of service to the following cities from DFW:

St. Louis
Kansas City
Austin
College Station
Shreveport, LA
Cincinnati
San Antonio
Killeen, TX

Do you have anymore specifics as to how many flights will be downgraded/reduced?


User currently offlineFCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7239 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 2):
what is AA going to do with their slots at LGB?

Fly a Saab LGB-LAX? :p



USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11640 posts, RR: 61
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7221 times:

Such a tragedy, such a pothetic, unfortunate, unnecessary tragedy ...

User currently offlineJunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 768 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7209 times:

I guess AA is not serious about making DAL work. AA needs to offer something WN can’t. I can understand the STL flights (or any other hub), but mainline to MCI, and intra TX routes are insane. It is possible to pick up market share at DAL, but only if you do it rationally. Even with AA’s new routes, the only way you can buy a ticket from Love to Europe, Asia or Latin America using a single carrier with one stop is on CO. What is AA trying to do?

User currently offlineLY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 857 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7203 times:

Quoting Stl1326 (Reply 5):
Do you have anymore specifics as to how many flights will be downgraded/reduced?

St. Louis: Moving four non-stop flights to Dallas Love Field; retaining eight non-stop flights at DFW; net loss of one daily non-stop flight

Kansas City, Mo.: Moving three non-stop flights to Dallas Love Field; retaining seven non-stop flights at DFW; net loss of two non-stop daily flights

Austin, Texas: Moving five non-stop flights to Dallas Love Field; retaining 14 non-stop flights at DFW

San Antonio, Texas: Moving four flights to Dallas Love Field; retaining 12 flights at DFW

College Station, Texas: Reduction from six to three daily round-trips to DFW.
In addition, one Saturday round-trip will be downgraded from an ERJ to a Saab

Tyler, Texas: Reduction from seven to four daily round-trips to DFW

Cincinnati, Ohio: Reduction from six to five daily round-trips to DFW

San Angelo, Texas: Downgrade of one ERJ round-trip to a Saab 340

Shreveport, La.: Downgrade of two ERJ round-trips to Saab 340s

Killeen, Texas: Downgrade of one ERJ round-trip to a Saab 340



That's why we're here.
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3504 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7193 times:

I do not see any mention of the service reductions/cancellations everyone is talking about. Is there a press release or something to link that info?

User currently offlineLY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 857 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7168 times:

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 10):
I do not see any mention of the service reductions/cancellations everyone is talking about. Is there a press release or something to link that info?

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dw...aa051213_wz_lovefield.6850d46.html



That's why we're here.
User currently offlineFCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7165 times:

Oh noes, it's a tragedy that the people of Dallas/Fort Worth have more choices in airline travel! How un-American that people can fly to where they choose on the airline of their choice! Shocking, I tell you. This competition thing is out of hand.


USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7153 times:

I am anxious to see what OPNL_Guy, sccutler, and some of the other denizens of Love Field have to say about this. My gut reaction is.....Why?

I know why. American's management has made dire predictions about what would/will happen if Wright goes away and they are not about to be proven wrong.

American may divert some of Southwest's intra-Texas traffic over to their airplanes. More likely, though, they will divert some of their own intra-Texas business from DFW to Love Field. Once at Love Field, when the MD80 breaks down or the RJ has an issue, all bets are off as to whether or not those psgrs stay on American.

It is hard to beat frequency, and WN still offers frequency to AUS & SAT.

It was somewhat surprising that AA didn't try a few RJs down to HOU, although they probably could anticipate how that would come out.

The delay in starting the service (March?) certainly is not going to do American any good.

As far as drawdowns elsewhere...

DFW reductions to KC, STL, SAT, AUS --- offset by new frequencies offered from Love Field

Reducing frequencies from DFW to KC and STL may come back to bite AA....since traffic from ELP, LBB, and MAF that connected at DFW may find that fewer frequencies = fewer connecting opportunities, and that the connection times available on WN (as well as not having to fight DFW) make WN a better choice. MAF & LBB to those cities aren't huge markets, but ELP-KC and ELP-STL is nothing to sneer at.

I know why American is reducing frequency to Killeen - a big chunk of Fort Hood is deployed (where do you think I am typing this from...it's noon in Texas and 9 pm here) and when Fort Hood is deployed, there are a lot fewer psgrs at Killeen.

All in all it doesn't make economic sense, but I guess when you are accustomed to losing money throwing away 25-35 million a year to try and make a point is worth it.

Next move is Southwest's. If it were me, I would chop the fares on some of the Texas intrastate but especially in markets where I competed against American in and out of St Louis and (to a lesser extent) Chicago.

This is almost the worst-case-scenario for American. If they had gone to KC and St Louis with RJs, they might hurt themselves in O&D traffic but they could sell "Love Field to anywhere in the world" sort of like CO does down to IAH. But they chose to go to those two cities with MD80s. If they ran MD80s intra-Texas, they would lose money, but they could sell WN passengers on the idea of First Class and extra AAdvantage miles. First Class on a Barbie Dream jet? Why Bother?


User currently offlineFCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7130 times:

I think it's pathetic to try and claim that the cut flight to Lima, Peru is coming at the expense of DAL. Were they flying an MD-80 to Lima or something? Come on, they're just using it as an excuse to cut an underperforming flight.


USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3504 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7101 times:

"We must fly from DAL-MCI, therefore no more service to Lima, Long Beach, or Green Bay."

Agreed. It just sounds like an excuse to cut under-performing flights. And call me crazy, but it seems like far more Dallas residents will use the flights to MCI and STL, than they would to LIM.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2924 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7095 times:

The cancelling of DFW-LIM can't possibly be related to the DAL start-up of service. And I am really surprised that this flight is being axed given the rising popularity of Peru and the cargo. Is it a seasonal cancellation?

User currently offlineWilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1285 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7000 times:

TXAGKUWAIT,I don't think it has to do with the deployment. I live in Copperas Cove and the local economy is humming right along. Dropping from a 50 pax RJ to a 30 pax Saab is not that big of a deal considering how many flights AE has to DFW.

http://www.flykilleen.net/flightinfo.php

I think COEX is having more of an effect. They turning out to be a very strong competitor.

As regards AA service out of Love,its all token.


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6935 times:

Quoting Ssides (Reply 1):
AA is also dropping LGB, GRB, RST, PVD, and most importantly, LIM, from its DFW schedule.

LGB has been dropped twice before; the route does not make AA any money. Without having seen the actual revenue numbers for the other specific flights, I would presume that these flights as well are money losers. Allowing Missouri to be added to the list of exempt states from the Wright Amendment is just a handy excuse. If the routes to these cities were actually doing well, there would be no reason to drop them as there is no competition on the routes they are dropping.

16 daily flights, including flights to AUS and SAT...why?!? Flights to AUS already failed, why bring them back? Well, if they can compete with four daily flights to both cities and not lose their shirts, more power to them.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6864 times:

I can't say that i'm surprised to see PVD get dropped, but it sure is dissapointing. I say that I'm not surprised because AA has seen to give up on PVD as of late...only 3 flights to ORD and 1 to DFW...so they'll be at only 3 per day. AA was never huge in PVD, but still, you'd think they could make one PVD-DFW flight work. I'm sure the loads/yield were decent in the market, but I guess they have bigger fish to fry at BOS. Very sad.

User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6856 times:

Remember, AA doesn't always start a route to make money. The idea can be to make the other guy lose money.

If a passenger who flies both AA and WN now fines himself with a choice at DAL, he might very well pick AA. Let's face it, elite status on AA has a lot of perks. On the other hand, WN doesn't have any sort of elite status.

Flying an RJ between DAL and SAT may not be as nice as a 737, but the extra miles may mean getting upgrades out of DFW to LAX or BOS. And the extra miles may mean the free trip to MCO or LGW.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6844 times:

And just for the record, I think AA's venture into DAL will be a total failure. I give it six months at the most.

User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3413 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6844 times:

While loads on the DFW-PVD were very high from day one, I suppose the yields weren't what AA wanted, otherwise we'd be getting a 2nd flight instead of losing the onbe we had. Once again, though, the AA roller coaster ride at PVD continues. October of 2004, we had 10 AA flights - we'll be down to 3 (assuming they don't do anything to replace the DFW flight) when this takes place.

I'm mostly peeved that if the loads are so high, why not yield manage the flight better to increase the revenue - I'm tired of AA's games here - and I used to be employed by them nonetheless!!!

I bet the folks in GRB and LRB feel the same way...


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6808 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 16):
And I am really surprised that this flight is being axed given the rising popularity of Peru and the cargo. Is it a seasonal cancellation?

With the exception of PVD, all of the dropped cities were not very full....ever.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6794 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 13):
Reducing frequencies from DFW to KC and STL may come back to bite AA....since traffic from ELP, LBB, and MAF that connected at DFW may find that fewer frequencies = fewer connecting opportunities

What they've done with MCI and STL is move the flights that are heavily O&D to DAL. Flights with a higher percentage of connecting traffic are still going to DFW.

Steve


25 Ikramerica : The LGB pax will have to drive "all the way" to LAX or SNA to catch one of the 20 daily flights to DFW, and GRB will have to connect in ORD instead, o
26 MSYtristar : I guess yield management is hard to come by at an airline that is losing a lot of money. Or perhaps the talent just isn't there. Or the will.
27 Post contains images Thecamel67 : As one of those AA "heavy metal" flyers, I would 1) drive to DFW for an MD80 or 2) drive to DAL for a 737 before I would 3) drive to DAL for a Barbie
28 MrSTL : What fleet types will AA be using on the remaining 8 DFW-STL flights?? Anyone in the know?
29 Milemaster : I just love how words like "excuse" and "pathetic" are being thrown around here in regards to AA's schedule changes. Why is it such an excuse or cons
30 Post contains images Iowaman : AA is acting as bad as NW right now, doing these dumb anti-competitive moves. How they think they will make money or do decent is beyond me, so it's p
31 TxAgKuwait : >>Southwest publicly stated over & over that removing the WA was all about competition. Yet when AA annouces service from Love WN's PR "team" spews ou
32 Goingboeing : You know, that "poorly skilled PR team" was only telling the truth when they said it was a horrible decision for AA to start up a bunch of DAL flight
33 FATFlyer : They get returned to the city per the various slot allocation agreements in place. I believe the agreement in 2003 said JetBlue gets first crack at t
34 MaverickM11 : It's not necessarily that simple. AA may have been able to fill the plane at a money losing fare, but whenever they tried to increase the fare to a s
35 Post contains images Longhornmaniac : How is this likely to affect traffic at AUS from DFW, aside from the aforementioned reduction in flights. If there were to be any equipment changes, w
36 PUDFW : The fact of the matter is that American is on way back to profitability. Regardless of flying out of Love field or not it, this is a drop in the bucke
37 N1120A : WN's PR team is right about this being an idiotic decision by AA. AA should continue to compete where they are strong and not use competition from WN
38 Cairo : A tragedy for AA's model, sure, which is basically to overcharge some customers in order to subsidize others. Also, most of these cancellations have
39 Iowaman : Fuel Hedges don't run out until 2009, and without fuel hedges Southwest would of still been profitable last quarter. Bring back high prices? Why? Com
40 FLAIRPORT : I am very suprised at this also. IMHO, if you are going to use the RJ, fly them to ABQ or somewhere WN can't! Also, I think the 738 would have been a
41 Goingboeing : Know something? They'll still have a competitive advantage because they won't have the costs of running out of 2 airports 11 miles apart. Even withou
42 Wjcandee : You guys missed a critical line in the press release: "The airline is working with airport officials on arrangements for ticket counters and other fac
43 Post contains links Indio66 : DFW is complaining: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051213/datu048.html?.v=32
44 Atrude777 : ya , boo hoo look what they wrote. It will also mean reduced service to key Texas cities including Austin, San Antonio, College Station and Tyler, as
45 Jetdeltamsy : While none of us are privy to the actual numbers, I would think that AA's (re)entry into DAL will be very expensive. Especially when you factor in th
46 Kanebear : I can't believe they're killing the Lima route. I KNOW that has nothing to do with DFW/DAL issues. Perhaps they want the 757 elsewhere? Yields may hav
47 N1120A : Excellent post Bill If WN are allowed to compete with flights from DAL, North Texas air traffic will go up, prompting more people to come in and out
48 Post contains images SWALoveField : Seems like basic economics to me, but judging from AA's decisions with DAL, they need help with basic economics. Robb Dallas, TX
49 Travelin man : "The shift of American flights to Love Field will eliminate North Texas service to five domestic cities: Long Beach, Calif.; Yes, it is truly difficul
50 Seatback : What? No thread about how AA is expanding its STL hub?
51 Iloveboeing : I agree with you 100%. I think that American can compete just fine at DFW. Instead of going around, making threats and everything......they need to f
52 Goingboeing : With regards to the WA....what will AA passengers originating at DAL and flying to STL think about claiming their bags and rechecking them to go on t
53 Flyinryan99 : True....or just drive to DTW or MSP and fly nonstop. None the less, it hurts the small communities. I'm sure we're going to see more fall out on the
54 Wjcandee : What a remarkable level of intellectual dishonesty and self-abasement to which the DFW executives will kneel to slurp The Great Satan of the airline i
55 Travelin man : I understand it might be frustrating, but the service is obviously not economical without the onerous government restrictions of the Wright Ammendmen
56 Iloveboeing : Amen to that! It seems like all American wants to do is to maintain its monopoly and high fares and manipulate the traveling public. From what I've s
57 Post contains images Lightsaber : LGB?!? Wow. After losing JFK (an AA flight I liked), what will LGB have? Is the station closing? This is probably worth its own thread... Lightsaber
58 Post contains images Iowaman : Regardless of what AA or DFW say, it will be.
59 Daron4000 : Does anyone know why AA is stopping DFW-LIM service and when?
60 Post contains images TheGreatChecko : I should call AA and ask for IRK (Kirksville, MO) -DAL and see what they say... Wait I'd be charged to do that... GreatChecko Funny, STL-DAL isn't ev
61 Ikramerica : Would be a smart move. It's just too close to SNA and LAX. While AA made a big deal out of flying to LGB for years, I never quite saw the point of fl
62 N200WN : Can you provide a link please to that PR release? I would like to read it for myself. After the negative remarks that Kevin Cox has made about WN, th
63 SonOfACaptain : Hmmmm, you see greed....yet these carriers are still losing money. Seems to me that they are just trying to make a profit. If that is greedy...well,
64 Stlgph : I'm surprised Trans States hasn't jumped on the whale with one or two RJ flights between the two cities to connect to other STL- RJ cities. there's an
65 MAH4546 : Since when are 784 (daily AA flights from DFW) and 491 (daily AA flights from ORD) equivalent numbers?
66 Ckfred : TxAgKuwait: I'm an AMR shareholder, and I have no problem with AA trying to inflict a little financial pain on WN. It's is quite common for companies
67 FCYTravis : Except that WN has far more ability to take financial pain than AMR. AA's strategy at Love was always to out-bleed their competitors. The problem for
68 Dallas74 : In your example the grocery store, BMW, and Toyota were all profitable enterprises when they decided to sell an item at a loss. AMR is losing money.
69 SPREE34 : AND, turn a profit while doing it.
70 SPREE34 : Wjcandee, post #54. Excellent post sir.
71 SPREE34 : You might consider a new investment. While I believed AMR was going to turn around, this latest move to Love again is senseless. "Calculated losses."
72 Texan : AA dropped LGB in the mid 1980s due to poor yields and loads, as LGB is much more of a low fare, tourist market than LAX or SNA. They tried serving i
73 BNinMSY : Funjet never flew DFW-LGB - it may have been another airline but not "Funjet". "FunJet then started twice daily service from DFW-LGB, so AA came back
74 Post contains links Texan : My mistake, it was SunJet. Don't know what was going on with the Funjet thing. Apologies. Link
75 777Purser : Why is it that people out there think that Southwest is so God all mighty invulnerable to anything? Latest I heard their labor is not all that low...
76 SMUDFWFlyer : Wjcandee, I feel your anger on this one. DFW is probably one of the worst run airports in the country if not the world. Cox and Fegan should be FIRED
77 Okie : AA did not fall off the turnip truck last night. AA has a huge data base of passengers, demographics, zip codes, how often they fly to certain destina
78 Post contains images Kahala777 : Desperate Times call for Desperate Measures... American Airlines has been living in the bubble that is DFW for way to long. They are not making money
79 OPNLguy : Was that perhaps "Jet America" that flew DFW-LGB (ORD-LGB too, IIRC)? They were acquired by Alaska, were they not?
80 ScottB : The logical flaw here, in my opinion, is that there's no likely end-game which makes the losses for AA worth the effort. Low-fare stimulation will dr
81 Ikramerica : Toyota dumped cars on the market to win customers. Whether that is good business or not is debatable. Had the Lexus not been a high quality car, it w
82 Texan : SNA and BUR are the business markets, LAX serves as the international connection point and the most known airport, while ONT handles more of the leis
83 DALNeighbor : I agree with the logical flaw. For reference, here is AA's strategy in the DFW market as presented in the DOJ anitrust memo link that Texan provided.
84 Iowaman : LCC's are the ones who are making the money, growing, and can generally offer a better product. Again, even without fuel hedges WN would of been prof
85 ScottB : They might, they might not. There are two big question marks here: (1) How many more people will fly now that average fares will be half (or less) of
86 Post contains images Kahala777 : Compare American Airlines history at DAL to Southwest Airlines... Compare! So what is next for American Airlines? Are they a full service domestic ai
87 Ouboy79 : AA likely won't get ran out of Love...they'll pull from their base, but won't really do much more than that. The biggest pain of this is the pull back
88 MtnWest1979 : I got a kick out of saying that they needed to compete with WN and not let them have all the DAL flights, so they are beginning DAL-MCI/STL flights. B
89 SCCutler : Problem with this analysis is that it relies upon a couple of false predicates; first, that "today's fares are just not realistic," and the second, t
90 Post contains images Electech6299 : Sure, but can AA run a break-even route simultaneously? I haven't seen any financial study that says no, never...only past history with AA management
91 Lat41 : PVD sits in the middle of a huge pool of population and commerce, much of which wouldn't get involved with BOS if it could be avoided. American's shr
92 PVD757 : You are right Lat41, hopefully it won;t be to far in the future...
93 ScottB : See, I'm not sure I agree with the "lower operating costs" when you take all of the applicable costs as a whole. Yes, landing fees at DAL are lower,
94 Electech6299 : Probably. In the beginning, of course, thare has to be a capital investment. Which is why I added at the bottom: This may have to do with corporate s
95 TxAgKuwait : Great job electech & Scott.....discussion without rancor. What a concept. Although I have to disagree with elect's characterization of Southwest's cos
96 Electech6299 : Sure, and would therefore make more profit on the route. But that doesn't necessarily mean that AA couldn't also turn a profit, or a least break even
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