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Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"  
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7081 posts, RR: 57
Posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2954 times:

Snippets From RATI

The ultra-long range aircraft on offer do “not have enough payload and yield to make it a profitable operation”.

“As well, our commercial people did not feel the savings in elapsed time between the non-stop and one-stop journey was great enough to appeal to a wide enough passenger base.”

“Neither the Boeing 777 or the A340 provide an economical solution to our desire to have some of our services over-fly mid-point hubs,” Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon says in a statement.


The world is really getting smaller these days
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3764 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2931 times:

"Uneconomical"? I'd call it "un-bloody-comfortable"!

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7081 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2895 times:

Quoting Doona (Reply 1):
"Uneconomical"? I'd call it "un-bloody-comfortable"!

Basically - QF analysts couldnt proove that the additional yield from operating non stop would outweigh the siginificant extra costs of operating .

This is a bad day for the 345/772LR



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3764 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 2):
This is a bad day for the 345/772LR

Personally, I would prefer two shorter flights over a really long one. The thought of being stuck in the middle seat in a 777 for 20+ hrs just scares me!

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2863 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 2):
Basically - QF analysts couldnt proove that the additional yield from operating non stop would outweigh the siginificant extra costs of operating .

This is a bad day for the 345/772LR

Not really, they couldn't prove it would be economical on that single specific segment.
I'd guess that it may well be profitable between for example Tokyo and New York or Moscow and Los Angeles.

I think Boeing have always well understood that the market for extreme range airliners is a small one, they're not stupid (despite moving their HQ to Daleyville).



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7081 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2812 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
I'd guess that it may well be profitable between for example Tokyo and New York or Moscow and Los Angeles

NRT JFK is operated nonstop by the 747 and 772ER, so no need for the LR. 6737 miles

SVO LAX is operated nonstop by the 763 - so no need for ultra long haul equipment. 6079 miles



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

There's always CX or BA who could order a few, to fly LHR-HKG,... via the pacific.
 stirthepot 



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2726 times:

Here's a link to Dixon's Statement:

http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn.../details?ArticleID=2005/dec05/3370


User currently offlineBNE From Australia, joined Mar 2000, 3174 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2642 times:

The 787-8 will fly 8000 miles to 8600 miles right out of the box. I guess with the new technology that has gone into the 787 maybe one day allow the 787-8ULR will allow it to go the full distance.


Why fly non stop when you can connect
User currently offlineIl75 From Argentina, joined May 2001, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

Hi!

Trying to understand the economics behind the statement:

The ultra-long range aircraft is not good business because it burns too much fuel / it is too expensive to operate and/or carries too little passengers/cargo. Is that right?

Does it mean that an uneconomical destination (if you fly ULR) can be on the contrary profitable by making one stop? How come? Picking up/ leaving passengers at that stop or being able to operate a more efficient aircraft?

I would appreciate someone explain this to me...

Regards
Erico


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2298 times:

Well one thing people tend to forget is that you have to transport fuel to carry fuel -so the longer the flight the more overhead-weight an airliner has to carry just to lift the enormous amount of fuel for those long distances.


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineCATHAY747 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

In addition to the economics stated by Dixon, I think there is another concept people are overlooking, namely that pax will have a limit on how long of a nonstop flight they will be willing to endure.

I have not heard of any studies being done on this, but I have to agree with Doona above, I could NOT handle 20+hrs on an airplane, EVEN IN FIRST CLASS WITH A FULLY-FLAT BED! I think I'd have to say that my personal limit is roughly 15-16hrs, which I've done (LAX-HKG @ 15hrs in F, and even in F I nearly went crazy) and I'd be willing to do JFK-HKG on the CX nonstop (about 16hrs), but that's it.

I'd equate this to the limit airlines are finding pax have for how long they are willing to fly on an RJ here in the U.S., where CO Exp. for example, is running them between WAS and IAH, which is 3.5hrs....WAYYYY too long, in my humble opinion, on an RJ.  faint 



You know, there's a word for women like you, not used in high society, outside of a kennel!
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Perhaps the ultralong application of the technology won't pan out anytime soon but I think the ability to carry substantially more weight over existing routes is the flip side and will pay off sooner rather than later.

User currently offlineAeronick From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2158 times:

Don't forget - if you're going for such a long range then you have to factor in the cost of carrying that extra weight of fuel.

User currently offlineMbj2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2097 times:

So maybe in the long turn, the idea of a Sonic Cruiser wouldn't have been that bad. It's sad Boeing didn't follow it...

Quoting N79969 (Reply 12):
I have not heard of any studies being done on this, but I have to agree with Doona above, I could NOT handle 20+hrs on an airplane, EVEN IN FIRST CLASS WITH A FULLY-FLAT BED! I think I'd have to say that my personal limit is roughly 15-16hrs, which I've done (LAX-HKG @ 15hrs in F, and even in F I nearly went crazy) and I'd be willing to do JFK-HKG on the CX nonstop (about 16hrs), but that's it.



Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
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