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Excellent Article On The Qantas 787 Vs A350 Choice  
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4660 posts, RR: 23
Posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 22225 times:

From The Australian article "Lord of the Flyers" by Steve Creedy dated 17 December 2005 -

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,17591854%255E23349,00.html

The article interviews people involved with the decision and has many exceptionally interesting points. A couple are below -

* But there was to be one last twist in the tale: just before the Qantas board was about to make a decision on December 7, both manufacturers lowered their prices at the last minute and it was back to the models.

* "The revised offers were significant - I would go as far as to say very significant - and we wanted to check all of that," says Gregg. "But even after that, and we don't how they did it, they were still within a bee's knee of each other.

* Qantas in the past had placed incremental orders for 10 or 20 planes and the blunt-talking Gregg believed this meant the airline was getting screwed.

* Gregg told his newly hired head of strategy, former US-based Lend Lease executive Simon Hickey, that the manufacturers saw Qantas as easy pickings. They didn't see the airline's business as a big deal, even though the smaller orders ultimately locked in the airline as a customer for a decade or more. What was needed was an order that would sit up and make them notice.

Absolutely excellent article! You have to read it!

Trent.


I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 22132 times:

Indeed quite interesting:

Gregg says the decision could have gone either way and probably would have gone to Airbus had it been made earlier.

"Boeing must have moved quite a few big boulders out of the way to suddenly give us access to the 787 far, far earlier than we ever expected we could get it.

"Without that, they would have been very hard pressed to have won the deal."


And later


When all the calculations were done, there was little between the planes in terms of cost or operating abilities.


[Edited 2005-12-16 17:11:44]

[Edited 2005-12-16 17:12:37]

[Edited 2005-12-16 17:13:46]

User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 22080 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Thread starter):
What was needed was an order that would sit up and make them noticed.

The size of the order took most everyone by surprise...so I would say they achieved what they set out to do.



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineDaus From United States of America, joined May 2005, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 22043 times:

As they say, the battle is generally won before it even begins. Boeing won this deal when they launched the right aircraft first. No amount of redesign of the 350 can make them available in '08. That said, the playing field will level once Boeing sells out it's slots and has to offer comparable delivery slots.

User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1938 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 22027 times:

Quoting Joni (Reply 1):
"Boeing must have moved quite a few big boulders out of the way to suddenly give us access to the 787 far, far earlier than we ever expected we could get it.

"Without that, they would have been very hard pressed to have won the deal."

When all the calculations were done, there was little between the planes in terms of cost or operating abilities.

Hmm... This quote really reflects that the B787 and the A350 are really very competitive and matched against each other. Maybe this news helps other airlines in their choice. Also, with these planes being this alike, I wonder if Airbus can win some orders due to the fact that the slots at Boeing are becoming full.

Good article! Thanks for the heads-up ClassicLover!

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4660 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 22013 times:

Quoting DIA (Reply 2):
The size of the order took most everyone by surprise...so I would say they achieved what they set out to do.

Well, the comments appear quite honest. Apparently it's a Ryanair strategy to order in bulk to get a better deal and then sell the surplus aircraft and make a profit. Makes a lot of sense to order in bulk... and QF certainly did have a history of ordering in small pieces beforehand.

Quoting Daus (Reply 3):
No amount of redesign of the 350 can make them available in '08.

This is true, but as the article says - it would have been an Airbus order had Boeing not given Qantas slots for 2008.

Trent.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineDaus From United States of America, joined May 2005, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 21961 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 4):
it would have been an Airbus order had Boeing not given Qantas slots for 2008.

Exactly to my point. The battle was already won. Only Boeing could supply what Airbus really wanted. The differences in the 787 and 350 became minutia.

I sure hope the sales guys share the commisions with the product management guys.  Smile


User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 711 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 21875 times:

Very interesting article indeed!! Thanks for posting it.

It looks like A350 compares very well with B787, according to Gregg, one of the factors for choosing 787 was Boeing able to secure early delivery slots for QF (I guess they have to build that second production line, eh?).

Glad to see Boeing being more flexible to customer's needs, such as changing the design for -9.


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4660 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 21830 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 7):
Glad to see Boeing being more flexible to customer's needs, such as changing the design for -9.

Yeah, it's nice to see them getting back to their roots. After all, they shortened the 707-100 for QF to swap payload for range back in the 1950s, so it's good to see them coming to the party a bit more.

Trent.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 21771 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 4):
Hmm... This quote really reflects that the B787 and the A350 are really very competitive and matched against each other. Maybe this news helps other airlines in their choice. Also, with these planes being this alike, I wonder if Airbus can win some orders due to the fact that the slots at Boeing are becoming full.

This actually reflects the fact that neither aircraft actually exists. Therefore, it is not possible to really second guess what the manufacturers tell you about performance. When you add uncertainty to the equation (especially the naive use of uncertainty) it becomes very hard to differentiate. As the aircraft actually come online and the external environment shifts about you will see more differentiation of the aircraft. Things like fuel burn and actual maintenance burden will be established. These will not be the same for both aircraft, and depending on the environment at the time of actual operation may make a huge difference in the actual value. Also the engines are where a lot of the improvements come from and they are basically shared between the two families.

One other thing to consider. If the aircraft are identical in every aspect, including performance and price, and you are ordering them today with a deposit of $10 million. The aircraft that gets delivered two years sooner has a much higher NPV than the one delivered two years later.


User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 21755 times:

Are you trying to get a point across that the only reason the 787 was chosen was because of availability, and not on the merits of the aircraft? Or maybe that the 350 will somehow match oall of the advantages of the 787? You conveniently leave out:

"Qantas wanted to get Jetstar International up and running as quickly as possible and to give it the cost advantages of the best new technologies, including wider use of carbon fibre composites.

Ultimately, according to Gregg, the weight of both those arguments tipped the decision in favour of Boeing."

So, a combination of availability and more advanced technology...not such an even match. With all things apparently being equal, namely PRICE, the 787 won out based on its technology, with availability being the deal breaker.

Quoting Joni (Reply 1):
Indeed quite interesting:

Gregg says the decision could have gone either way and probably would have gone to Airbus had it been made earlier.

"Boeing must have moved quite a few big boulders out of the way to suddenly give us access to the 787 far, far earlier than we ever expected we could get it.

"Without that, they would have been very hard pressed to have won the deal."


And later


When all the calculations were done, there was little between the planes in terms of cost or operating abilities.



Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 21715 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 4):
Hmm... This quote really reflects that the B787 and the A350 are really very competitive and matched against each other. Maybe this news helps other airlines in their choice. Also, with these planes being this alike, I wonder if Airbus can win some orders due to the fact that the slots at Boeing are becoming full.

I would imagine their modeling includes lots of assumptions that are likely more conservative for the 787 with its greater use of untested technology. It is unlikely the two aircraft have similar costs and capabilities in any given area given how different they are in size and technology. The overall number may come out the same based on the current assumptions of capabilities and costs. But we will have firm data sooner for the 787 and that will have an impact one way or the other on later evaluations for other carriers, just as data from in service A340NGs and 777LRs have had an impact on the 777/A346 decisions.

On the otherhand, Qantas's CFO might be obfuscating their analysis results because they don't want to give away the fruits of their analysis to their competition for free and reveal their own future operating plans completely. They would like their competition to make bad decisions, and by not providing an complete and accurate representation of their analysis they aren't helping their competition.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineNijltje From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 21690 times:

Good that you where at the meetings Cwapilot...

User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 21629 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 11):

Or maybe you're just a victim of Boeing propaganda...



Never trust the obvious
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1938 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 21617 times:

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 9):
This actually reflects the fact that neither aircraft actually exists.

You have a valid point here. I was just wondering. When the first B787 data is dripping in, Airbus can make some last minute adjustments to their A350's... Ah well, it will keep the business in balance and that's the biggest win for all airlines out there!

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 21570 times:

Quoting Aither (Reply 13):
Or maybe you're just a victim of Boeing propaganda...

Really, what Boeing propaganda do you see in my statement? All I have said is common sense regarding modeling of aircraft not in service and divulging results of internal analyses as well as the facts regarding current A340NG and 777LR competitions.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 14):
When the first B787 data is dripping in, Airbus can make some last minute adjustments to their A350's...

I'm sure they will be tweaking things throughout the development process, but so will Boeing after rollout. I'm sure how much adjusting you can make that far into development though that would take into account actual 787 data.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 21520 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 14):
When the first B787 data is dripping in, Airbus can make some last minute adjustments to their A350's.



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 15):
I'm sure they will be tweaking things throughout the development process, but so will Boeing after rollout. I'm sure how much adjusting you can make that far into development though that would take into account actual 787 data.

Exactly. Look at how Boeing is still ekeing performance increases out of the 777-300ER/-200LR.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 21475 times:

If Airbus are smart, they can do to Boeing with the A350 what Boeing did to the A340 with the B777. Wait until the market is halfway down the upgrade route, introduce a superior product based on 6+ years advancement in technology.

Just my 2 cents tho.


User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 21313 times:

Quoting Nijltje (Reply 12):
Good that you where at the meetings Cwapilot...

No, I wasn't, smart ass...I just read the same article everyone else has. Nothing I have said wasn't in the article.



Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8481 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 21183 times:

The article is interesting in that it shows the 350 is closer to the 787 than some people think. Both A & B are going to have to work hard for orders when the planes can be competitive. Until such time as Boeing comes in with actual flight data there will be a reasonable balance between the two planes. If Boeing has been overly conservative in their fuel burn estimates then Airbus is going to have to get back to work.

Boeing's other challenge is to work with component suppliers to ensure that slots are available for sales.


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5220 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 21026 times:

The most interesting part of the article is that Boeing have "rewritten" the spec on the 787-9 significantly by the improvement in range. I wonder if this is the 787-9LR that Widebodyphotog included in a chart posted on Oct.4th under the thread "Is Boeing rebranding the 787?"

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 20902 times:

Thanks for the link, interesting article and a good summary of the drama that goes on leading to a major aircraft order......most interesting was QF's perception that it had to place a big order to be taken seriously by A and B, one would think that both A and B would pay serious attention to a customer like QF - a leading airline regardless of the size of the order.

I am not surprised that A has come up with a serious competitor to the 787....did anyone really think otherwise? The 787 and A350, atleast on paper, are well matched competitors.......they have to be, the world's airlines would not accept any other scenario. The question is whether these two paper airplanes meet their performance targets, and here, Boeing has the advantage as their products usually exceed performance guarantees, while Airbus has had difficulty in recent years meeting performance expectations with certain models. Its gonna get even more interesting as these two new aircraft develop and mature and enter service.

What else was confirmed by this article? Despite all of the drama and A vs B discussions here at a.net.......price and delivery positions are the two key components in the manufacturers landing an order. Who can get airplanes to an airline faster and cheaper will usually take an order.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 20832 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 17):
If Airbus are smart, they can do to Boeing with the A350 what Boeing did to the A340 with the B777. Wait until the market is halfway down the upgrade route, introduce a superior product based on 6+ years advancement in technology.

Except a lot of the problems with the A340 stem from being a quad and perhaps structural deficiencies of the long, thin fuselage. In contrast, look at the A333 which Boeing never displaced despite being later to the market with the 772A.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 20720 times:

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 20):
The most interesting part of the article is that Boeing have "rewritten" the spec on the 787-9 significantly by the improvement in range. I wonder if this is the 787-9LR that Widebodyphotog included in a chart posted on Oct.4th under the thread "Is Boeing rebranding the 787?"

Not quite. The original B787-9 proposal was for a MTOW of 500,000 lbs. Widebodyphotog speculated about a hypothetical 562,000 lb. B787-9 because that is the limit of the undercarriage. The actual B787-9 will be 540,000 lbs. MTOW. The B787-10X, if produced, will probably be about 562,000 lbs. MTOW.


User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 20663 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 17):
If Airbus are smart, they can do to Boeing with the A350 what Boeing did to the A340 with the B777. Wait until the market is halfway down the upgrade route, introduce a superior product based on 6+ years advancement in technology.

Just my 2 cents tho.

You are absolutely right.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 22):
Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 17):
If Airbus are smart, they can do to Boeing with the A350 what Boeing did to the A340 with the B777. Wait until the market is halfway down the upgrade route, introduce a superior product based on 6+ years advancement in technology.

Except a lot of the problems with the A340 stem from being a quad and perhaps structural deficiencies of the long, thin fuselage. In contrast, look at the A333 which Boeing never displaced despite being later to the market with the 772A.


A333 is a completely different market then A343-B772.
In fact it is quite a niche plane originally intended for medium range high capacity charter work, a 757 on steriods like some called it in the first days of the A333's life.

Many airlines are comfortable with the 2-2-2/ 2-4-2 setup of the Airbus wide body's, but you are right on the cargo capacity advantage of the 777.
Boeing designed the 777 as the first Boeing jetliner without the double bubble to get advantages on the cargo compartment. However Airbii did it right from the start with the A300-B4

[Edited 2005-12-16 21:59:13]

25 Post contains images Lumberton : I found the references to Qantas' strategy of by-passing the great hubs of Asia particularly interesting. Sounds like "point-to-point" has a convert i
26 Joni : This is true, Airbus has certain room to maneuvre since Boeing will have to freeze their plane sooner than Airbus does, so Airbus can spend a while w
27 STT757 : At that point Boeing then unveils the 737 replacement based on the 787, to which Airbus again will scrabble to come up with a competitor. The 787 is
28 Ruscoe : So what he is saying is that the price was almost the same between thr 350 &787; so the 787 won on technical reasons. It is the fact that the 787 is a
29 SunriseValley : Can you point me in the direction of any data for this MTOW version? Thanks
30 BR076 : Than I suggest you read again, because that's not what he was saying, the price was indeed almost the same and so were the technical specifications ,
31 Post contains links Atmx2000 : The 772A is in the same market. It was intended for domestic operations and medium hall. Sold less than 100 and came out in 1995, a couple of years a
32 RichardPrice : Its actually the other way round, Qantas awarded Boeing the contract mainly on two things: 1. The difficulty they had retasking their A330s for diffe
33 WhiteHatter : sorry to stop your cheerleading but Airbus already have the A320 replacement in the pipeline. Nice try, must do harder... just what are you on about?
34 FCKC : According to some observers , report Les Echos , Qantas has had a 50% discount price !!! Meaning as the price of a 787 is 160 M $ , they will only pay
35 NYC777 : True but then you can say bye bye to a 2010 EIS.
36 Atmx2000 : Anyway who knows anything about the two airplanes can say that the specifications have significant differences in capacity. Where do you get this ide
37 Atmx2000 : Is there anything new, or is this just what Boeing was always planning on making at its Australian subsidiary, Hawker de Haviland?
38 Dutchjet : What a surpirse, we are having an A vs B war over an interesting article......with people reading things into the article that are not stated. Come on
39 SunriseValley : In my view there are great amounts of dis-information , smoke and mirrors in the press releases and follow up articles. The model that QF used to anal
40 Post contains images QFA001 : I think you hit a nail on the head. To a certain extent, airlines have to believe what the OEMs are telling them, especially the ones without in-hous
41 Nrcnyc : After reading the article a few times, I don't see where the article said the 787 and 350 have equal or close performance. What I read was that after
42 Radelow : Couple of things. I think if I was Qantas I would have more hestitation on believing the numbers of the A350 (a plane still being designed) versus the
43 Post contains images Glideslope : Agreed, only this time they left with the valuables.
44 FCKC : Mrcnyc Totally agree with you. In fact we have no idea of the performance of both competitors. It's so childish to say that one is better than the oth
45 Zvezda : Most likely QF will evaluate the WhaleJet's CASM in actual service and then judge whether or not they think the B747-8 can beat it and by how much. T
46 Glideslope : One aspect of Technical Specs.... is the growing appearance that Boeing's performance claims are far more reliable than Airbus. A growing number of o
47 Post contains images Qfa001 : Bollocks. Aeronautics isn't some zany black art which noone knows about. Some airlines employ people for the expressed purpose of figuring out where
48 Stitch : I often hear that Airbus "overpromises and underperforms", but honestly, even if it is true, the differences have to be in the very low single-digit
49 Post contains images Lehpron : The word 'excellent' should not have been there. No opinions is the thread topic, how many times do I have to say it? Do it later, be part of the dis
50 Atmx2000 : To spot a trend you need many data points, and since airplanes have development cycles that take years and since new plane projects are started infre
51 GARPD : You know the words.... Pot, Kettle, Black!
52 Post contains images Aeropiggot : See "Atmx and Dutchjet" comments above, they at lease try to take an impartial position on the article, the rest is the usual A vs. B banter. With res
53 Gorbidog : All things being equal on the pricing and passenger efficiency front, if you were Qantas, which would you choose? Kind of a no-brainer it seems.
54 Theredbaron : I guess that Airbus should be happy Boeing got this order, because they have the first 3 years of production (Boeing) already sold, so ig any airline
55 Cruiser : However, even if it is one percent, then the ramifications could be huge. For example, when Boeing announced the 1.4% improvement on the 773ER, Boein
56 Cruiser : Certainly, Boeing is filling slots really quickly, but Airbus must be really close to selling out the first two years of the A350 also! Either way, a
57 Islandboy : I'm just curious. According to the article, the plane's were almost the same price. Wasn't the A350 $20 million more than the B787 at list price? Does
58 Antares : One reason I spend less and less time on this forum is the absurd constructions people with a drop-kick team A versus team B mentality put on official
59 Abba : And for us - the traveling public. Could they get some 380-800R? It will be out in a not so distant future and might do SYD-LHR? I don't think that t
60 Theredbaron : One thing here is 100% certain, Qantas made a killer deal, no doubt about it.... if it was good or bad to A or B only time will tell since neither of
61 A380X4TRENT900 : The boeing 787 is more advanced - it can fly further, FASTER, burn less fuel and carry more passenger's than the airbus a350 - this was THE reason abo
62 A319XFW : What? surely you mean the all-new GEnx....?
63 Joni : Well the A350 is quite largely new (new composite wing, for example) and the rest is based on the A330, which is a very competent design to begin wit
64 ANstar : The implication here is that QF will take back passnegers who currently connect with Asian carriers though their hubs, ie SQ, MH, CX, TG and that the
65 Leelaw : My take on Mr. Gregg's comments as reported in The Australian: intentionally slim on substance and understandably long on Mr. Gregg's bid for a little
66 Post contains links StickShaker : There is an interesting reference to the 787-10 in another arcticle in the same newspaper. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,17580840%25
67 BostonGuy : Absolutely. This is being terribly overlooked by people here as they try to digest the article. Qantas' analysis of all the data, costs of operating
68 Post contains links Sabenapilot : Not to fully undermine your calculations, but at present, the business plans of several large European airlines take $60/barrel as yearly average for
69 Post contains images Lumberton : I'm not sure "happy" is the way to characterize their position. Not the best recommendation for one's product, i.e., since our competitor's product i
70 11Bravo : That would be an estimate for crude, not refined product. You also have not included tax, transportation cost, or supplier profit. It's been a very l
71 DL021 : Bottom line here is that this article, the opinion of the writer and his various sources, quotes certain suppositions (instead of facts since both air
72 Post contains images Sabenapilot : What you pay for at the pump to fill your car is nowhere near what airlines pay for their fuel! First of all, there are NO taxes on aviation fuel use
73 11Bravo : That's actually $1.82 per gallon, but hey, who's counting, it's only a 65% difference. ...and you expect people to take your comments seriously when
74 Sabenapilot : You are right, I should have taken a calculator to do the conversion: 1,8 per gallon would indeed be more correct for the current prices in Euro/lite
75 DL021 : I guess no one wants to look at the real differences....that Airbus is not using the lead time to surpass Boeing, but merely trying to equal them, and
76 Sabenapilot : Jetfuel at present goes for about 40 eurocent / liter, that's a fact I see on a daily basis. Sorry for not having converted that correctly into the '
77 DL021 : Once again you ignore the fact that you are the one picking nits and I simply illustrated this by showing how you used two sets of numbers in your des
78 Cruiser : Sorry, my calculator obviously wasn't working when I put that together last night. According to IATA, the average price of jet fuel is hovering aroun
79 NAV20 : Regarding inflation (having done a fair few cash flow analyses in real life), there is usually no point in trying to take it into account. The reason
80 Post contains images Sabenapilot : Exactly, which is why is said: And thus it is useless to: Since it has been stated over and over again that fuel has NOT become significantly more ex
81 Cruiser : I quickly did a little bit of research into what you have stated here, and barring the oil crisis, you are quite right. If you take a look at a much
82 RayChuang : I think one of the big issues with the A350 (and the reason why QF went with the 787) was the fact Airbus has yet to "freeze" the engineering design o
83 Abba : Isn't that a somewhat inconsistent argument? Is the 787-100 frozen yet? Abba
84 ClassicLover : The initial 787 design was frozen several months ago. As soon as that happened, component suppliers began to be selected. I forget when the design wa
85 Abba : The 787-8 (and -3) I believe are very soon (if not already) frozen. The 787-9 however was significantly redefined during the talks with QF so I belie
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