FrancoBlanco From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1754 times:
Hi all,
just a few questions:
Which aircraft did Pan Am use on JFK-ZRH flights in 1980 (specifically around May, 1980)? When were the TriStars introduced on flights to Europe? Did PA also fly other routes from ZRH (e.g. LAX)? If so, which planes were used?
And finally, is it correct that Pan Am used JFK´s Terminal 1 for intercontinental flights?
Dc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1554 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1708 times:
I have a July 1980 schedule and the only Zurich flight goes to Berlin.
PA624 departs 1705- arrives 1820 727
PA625 departsBerlin(Tegel) 1605 arrives 1625 Zurich
I believe the L1011-500s were introduced in early Fall 1980 and they were put on the IAH-LGW route first.
Pan Am also introduced new uniforms July 1st for all ground and cabin staff. Sleeper seats were just being introduced to First Class.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 58 Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1649 times:
As far as I remember, Pan Am was never a big player in Switzerland......back then, TWA flew from JFK to both Zurich and Geneva. I do remember Pan Am having flights to Zurich on their German network (as pointed out above).....and much later on, Pan Am did fly an A310 on a JFK-BRU-GVA route.
Laxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22028 posts, RR: 51 Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1626 times:
Pan Am did actually have a decent sized operation in Switzerland.
For most of the 1980s JFK-ZRH was served with a daily nonstop B747. This did get switched over to the A310 towards the end.
In addition Zurich saw PA 727s with connections to Berlin TXL aided by Pan Am Express ATR-42s also. I also want to say Stuttgart was also linked to Zurich for a short time with a ZRH-STR-TXL routing.
For quite a while in the mid.late 80s, PA connected its Turkey services via ZRH with B727s operating ZRH-GVA-IST and ZRH-IST. A tag onto Ankara was also operated for a few seasons beyond Istanbul.
Geneva towards the end received A310 service via CDG replacing the ZRH-Turkey B727.
Lastly Pan Am's European based B727 and A310s also made appearances at Swiss airports operating sun charters on behalf of various tour operators.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Dtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1594 times:
I often flew PA 90/91 (last boarding pass dated 22 APR, Gate 10, Latest board time: 1905) JFK ZRH quite often in the late 80's. It was a 747 and the last flight I took was an A310 again in the late 80's all non-stop. It did continue as a 727-200 to STR.
YukonTrader From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 207 posts, RR: 7 Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1566 times:
Hi guys,
Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4): For most of the 1980s JFK-ZRH was served with a daily nonstop B747. This did get switched over to the A310 towards the end.
adding to LAX Intl's statements: TWA dropped transatlantic flights to ZRH around 1980, mainly due to the lack of a suitably sized replacement for the B707 that operated the route. Neither TWA nor PanAm flew transcontinental into ZRH for about two years. The only regular US jets into town were PA's B727-100 / B737-200 on the Berlin route once or twice a day.
As soon as Capitol International stept in with a daily DC-8-63 rotation (usually flown by N920CL), PanAm and Delta felt challenged and brought transatlantic services back to ZRH. As far as my memory serves me, PA was the first to move back in with L-1011-500 flights to JFK that started around fall 1983. By the summer schedule of 1984, the flights were beefed up to B747SP for an interim period, before the die-hard and ubiquos B747-121s took over, with the A310-300 appearing on their transatlantic flights to ZRH as late as spring 1991 only.
TWA re-established their flights to ZRH shortly after PA, re-introducing services to ZRH with a mix of L-1011 / B747-100 aircraft. For most of the period, TWA flights operated via Paris CDG to JFK (with onward connections in CDG to other US cities).
Todays US players in ZRH followed much later: AA moved into town in 1987 (B767-200, later B767-300 and for a short time also B777-200), United followed in 1994 and discontinued the flight in 1998 (B767-300), before returning in 2004. Continental was the final contender when it started bringing in the DC-10 in 1999, reverting to the B767-200 in 2001.
Delta took over the PanAm flights with the merger in November 1991, subsequently using the A310-300, the L-1011-500, the B767-300 and for a period also their MD-11 on flights to ZRH.
On a side note, inbetween ca. 1988 and 1992, TWA and United successively tried their luck with running feeder services out of ZRH and other European destinations to their European gateways (and in the case of TWA also to Berlin) using a Europe-based fleet of B727-100s (TWA) or B727-200s (United) respectively.
FrancoBlanco From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 1465 times:
Thanks very much for your replies!
Lukas, thanks for your detailed insight!
So in 1980 PA didn´t even fly trans-atlantic from ZRH, is that correct? Veerry interesting.
But who did? Was SR the only one? Which aircraft did they use on flights to JFK? Which terminal did they use there?
YukonTrader From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 207 posts, RR: 7 Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 1384 times:
Hi Sebastian
Quoting FrancoBlanco (Reply 8): So in 1980 PA didn´t even fly trans-atlantic from ZRH, is that correct?
when I started getting into the hobby in 1980, TWA had just dropped their ZRH flight, and PA was not around but for the Berlin flights, yes. On a year round basis, Swissair and Balair were the only ones flying transatlantic services out of ZRH. Seasonally in the summertime, say from ca. June to September, Transamerica ran a mix of B742 and DC-8-63 flights (also to JFK, IIRC) on weekends, while Air Florida had a once weekly run with their DC-10-30CF N1035F on Saturdays.
I also recall Arrow Air putting up a weekly run to ZRH with their ex Singapore B707-312, later with ex United DC-8-62s for a number of consecutive years, but I think that was a successor to the Air Florida flights which were discontinued shortly after I got into it (in fall 1981?). Also Hawaiian, Rich International (DC-8-62 both) and American Trans Air (B707-100B/-300C/DC-10-40) operated some seasonal flights into ZRH at periods in the early to mid 1980s...
Yep, those were the days I'd have to dig into old magazines for more details, actually.
MuseAir1981 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 10 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 1350 times:
On a side note. DL did not merge with PA. I was working for PA at this time. Here is a brief history from archive.com:
May 1, 1991
In March 1991, PA sold off its valuable Heathrow operation for $290 million to United. Pan Am was just left with Gatwick flights to New York JFK and Miami. This is also how the map looked just before Pan Am cut off it’s other arm - selling off its entire remaining European operation to Delta The demand for European flights fell dramatically the Gulf War. Also going were 2 747s and 351 airmen. Domestically, PA had shed much of its domestic routes as well. Ironically, the domestic schedule was paired back to 1980 levels.
October 27, 1991
On August 12, 1991 a bankrupt Pan Am sold off the last of the crown jewels. Delta essentially purchased the remaining assets of Pan Am for $416 million, assumed $389 million in liabilities, and infused PA with $80 million cash, then a second installment of $35 million. In return, Delta took the entire European operation (except for a lone Paris-Miami route), the A-310’s, the New York JFK Worldport, and the profitable Shuttle. A much smaller carrier serving the U.S., Caribbean, and Latin American would remain. On December 3rd, With Pan Am continuing to hemorrhage cash, Delta decided not to pump any more money in. Many had suspected that this was Delta’s plan along, strip the cream and cut it lose. In all actuality, Pan Am was hopeless. On December 4th, “The World’s Most Experienced Airline” was gone. Once again, United picked from the Carcass the Latin American routes and American the Miami terminal. But with that last flight from Barbados to Miami, went the fortunes of 1000s of talented employees and Juan Trippe’s “Chosen Instrument”.
Postlogue: Pan Am II flew in 1996-98 using A-300s on transcon flights from Miami and to Puerto Rico. After absorbing Carnival, it went bankrupt. In 1999, Pan Am III began flying successfully as a charter/scheduled carrier based in Portsmouth New Hampshire, flying 727s.
DETA737 From Portugal, joined Oct 2000, 596 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 1316 times:
Pan Am had only started flights to ZRH in 1977, just before TWA pulled out in January of 1978. Both carriers seemed to have varying periods of nonstop service to JFK. Pan Am also started GVA in 1983 but I can't recall this ever being a nonstop flight to JFK. In the summer of 1990 they had daily nonstop flights with 747s to ZRH and 727 flights to Stuttgart and Zagreb each being daily. By the summer of 1991 they were down to 4 weekly A310-300 flights to JFK. TWA would also eventually return to ZRH in 1984 and GVA in 1985, again with nonstop and direct flights until they dropped both cities a decade later.
I think my memory is correct.....DL got the DTW-LGW authority as part of its deal with Pan Am and flew it for a couple of years until DL finally agreed to sell that authority to NW who obviously wanted to serve London from their hub in Detroit.
I think my memory is correct.....DL got the DTW-LGW authority as part of its deal with Pan Am and flew it for a couple of years until DL finally agreed to sell that authority to NW who obviously wanted to serve London from their hub in Detroit.
You are right. It was not included in the sale of LHR rights to UA.
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 11957 posts, RR: 51 Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1246 times:
It was, PA actually operated it for a while after the sale to UA and the LHR slots, UA did not want the DTW to LHR authority even though they had a sizeable operation and following in the DTW area. And since only 2 USA carriers could and can operate out of LHR PA had to move the flight over to LGW. DL did end up with it and in time sold it off to NW.
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