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DL To Launch JFK-GRU  
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6625 posts, RR: 24
Posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6983 times:

DL has notified the DOT that they intend to start JFK-GRU service on April 1, 2006. DL will use existing frequencies to launch the route. Most likely (although DL doesn't state it), the frequencies will come from the 2nd daily ATL-GRU flight.

http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=377793&docketid=2338

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2497 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6947 times:

Extremely interesting.

DL would have to face pretty tough competition: AA offering its best product onboard the 777s, JJ with its excellent reputation and service, and, as if it weren't enough, RG, the leader in frequencies on this market.

DL would be the fourth player in the route, and despite having such a sizeable presence in JFK, it would be DL's only route to South America from the airport.

They do, however, fully-codeshare with AV on all of the airline's Colombia-JFK routes.



SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6942 times:

Probably looking for higher yields NYC can offer that ATL 2X daily cannot. The info I have is that both flight have an average 70% load in the last months, before peak season. It should go up to 100% in the coming days.

Cheers

edit: SouthAmerica, don't forget JL's 3X weekly and CO's service.

[Edited 2005-12-16 21:22:51]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2497 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6912 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
don't forget JL's 3X weekly and CO's service.

True. I did thought about CO but did not include them being from EWR. You are absolutely right about JAL.

DL would then be the fifth [or six if one considers the whole New York City area]. Tough job.



SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineBSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 379 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6898 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
don't forget JL's 3X weekly.

And Continental daily GRU-EWR.


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3107 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6891 times:

Interesting development. DL has been wanting to add more Latin America flights from JFK (for instance, their application to fly EZE-JFK). Hopefully they can do well with the route. Startup costs will be minimal though, given DL's operations in all of these cities already.

I wonder if DL will consider putting a 764 on ATL-GRU once BizE is installed on these planes? If both of the daily ATL-GRU routes are profitable, this will be a lot of lost capacity.


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4753 posts, RR: 45
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6865 times:

DL has a very heavy frequent flier presence in the NYC area, most of who, if given the option to fly DL metal down to LA would... Let's not forget that.

That being said, I do hope DL starts refurbing the 763 cabins faster, PTV's would be nice but not necessary IMO (altho most here die without having a PTV on a long-haul flight).



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6799 times:

Any chance the B777-200 would operate the JFK-GRU route to compete with Varig, American, Continental, TAM, and, JAL?


No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3535 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6777 times:

You have to look at this in broader terms: JFK WAR!

You have a full-fledged war at JFK that has been escalating for the past few years between Delta, JetBlue, and AA.

From what I can see, Delta is kicking AA's butt internationally. JetBlue is kicking AA's butt domestically.

The loser at JFK in this case, and throughout the past several years, is AA.

PJ


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6755 times:

Strange move in my opinion........the NYC-GRU market is already well covered, and some of the airlines flying the route have good reputations as far as service, not to mention that AA and RG are well established on this route.

And, in order to fly this route, DL will have to exchange the second daily ATL-GRU flight for the new JFK service....does this make sense? DL is a powerhouse in ATL, and has flights from hundreds of cities to feed its flights out of ATL to GRU, and there is no competition at ATL - what is the logic of getting into a battle at JFK? It seems like DL is asking for trouble - in recent months, DL has been building up its ATL hub with more and more Latin American destinations, and now they are cutting capacity to one of the most important cities in South America.


User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6704 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 9):
what is the logic of getting into a battle at JFK?

Assured O/D traffic, the route can survive with JFK termination alone.

KAHALA777


User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2646 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6700 times:

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 7):
Any chance the B777-200 would operate the JFK-GRU route to compete with Varig, American, Continental, TAM, and, JAL?

Not likely by DL!



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3107 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6674 times:

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 7):
Any chance the B777-200 would operate the JFK-GRU route to compete with Varig, American, Continental, TAM, and, JAL?

No chance at all. If DL had the 777s to spare (which they don't), I would assume they would put it on ATL-GRU first to make up for the loss of capacity.

That said, I don't think a 764 would be out of the question for either ATL-GRU or JFK-GRU once the Business Elite cabins are installed.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6674 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 10):

Assured O/D traffic, the route can survive with JFK termination alone.

KAHALA777

I understand......JFK rules when it comes to O&D traffic, but DL will compete with AA, RG, JJ, CO and JL on this route.....its going to be difficult.....I would think that there are better opportunities elsewhere, say out of ATL. If DL cannot make two daily flights on the ATL-GRU route work, why not think outside of the box and be the first US carrier to offer service to Brasilia or Manaus?


User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2646 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6668 times:

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 12):
That said, I don't think a 764 would be out of the question for either ATL-GRU or JFK-GRU once the Business Elite cabins are installed.

That actually makes sense. Putting one route (likely ATL) on the 764 and one on the 763.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33032 posts, RR: 71
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6597 times:

Sounds more like a move to protect their slots than anything else. Clearly, the 2nd daily ATL-GRU is not working out well (I'm sure it is filling, but the yield has to be hurting), so rather than give up the valuable slots, Delta is just going to try them out on JFK-GRU. Maybe as a placeholder, because I could see Delta wanting to jump in on, maybe, ATL-SSA, in the far future (3-4 years down the road).


a.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6625 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6525 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Sounds more like a move to protect their slots than anything else. Clearly, the 2nd daily ATL-GRU is not working out well (I'm sure it is filling, but the yield has to be hurting), so rather than give up the valuable slots, Delta is just going to try them out on JFK-GRU.

I agree. I think the 2x daily on ATL-GRU is overkill for most of the year...except at certain peak times.

However, the Brazilian frequencies are so valuable DL can't afford to give them up. JFK-GRU is going to be tough and DL may be a repeat of JFK-NRT...where DL got slaughtered because there was way too much competition on the route. It could take years before DL makes a profit on this route, but if DL really wants to make JFK it's second Latin American hub, they'll have to stick it out.

Maybe DL could try a JFK-GRU-JNB/CPT routing. If they can get fifth freedom rights on the GRU-JNB segment, it might work. Plus, they could time it so that passengers on the ATL-GRU flight could connect to the GRU-JNB segment. Just a wild guess.


User currently offlineWillyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6476 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):
Maybe SA)">DL could try a JFK-GRU-JNB/CPT routing. If they can get fifth freedom rights on the GRU-JNB segment, it might work.

I was thinking that SA)">AA might benefit from flying on to South Africa. They have such a large presence in GRU/GIG, and with their JJ connections I would think they would do well. Additionally, BA has a large presence in S. Africa (I've forgotten their local airline's name), and they could offer connections on that end. And if not SA)">AA, then perhaps JJ. I've heard that SA does very well on the GRU-JNB route.

Delta doesn't have the local presence (or partner) for this type of flight.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6346 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Sounds more like a move to protect their slots than anything else. Clearly, the 2nd daily ATL-GRU is not working out well (I'm sure it is filling, but the yield has to be hurting), so rather than give up the valuable slots, Delta is just going to try them out on JFK-GRU. Maybe as a placeholder, because I could see Delta wanting to jump in on, maybe, ATL-SSA, in the far future (3-4 years down the road).

Agree Mark. ATL-GRU was a really money maker for DL before oct 1st. When they start the daily flight to GIG (as previouslly discussed here), the two flights GRU-ATL has been hitted. They are probably trying to protect the yields droping one flight GRU-ATL and also trying to protect their slots.
But they need to put other plane (not the 767-300ER used on GRU-ATL nowadays) as JFK-GRU is a route with better planes used by their competitors:

- Varig is using two of their best 777's, with PTVs on all classes. Varig is also the king of this route with 11 weekly frequencies and keep ahead in terms of connections to/from Brazil. RG keep the best economy cabin for this route IMO.

- AA uses 777's also with PTVs on all classes. AA keep the advantage of the only one with leg to Rio de Janeiro without changing planes (50 to 100 exclusive pax every day). Strong domestic network in Brazil with Tam. AA keep the best first class cabin IMO for this route.

- TAM uses A330-200 (and it seems to become daily on the end of 1st quarter 2006). They have nowadays by far the best Business Cabin for this route IMO. Also, Tam is the only one with AVOD PTV system on their aircrafts on JFK-GRU. Strong connection network available in Brazil. Tam does not offer connections on JFK.

- Delta (?). If they use a 767-300ER without PTV's their economy will be out-of-date for the route. If they do not upgrade their business cabin, they cannot imagine to be best than Tam, and Delta does not offer connections on Brazil !

A question, how many connections they offer from JFK that would be better than ATL ?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
why not think outside of the box and be the first US carrier to offer service to Brasilia or Manaus?

Agree Dutchjet, and in my opinion they will run JFK-GRU during some months and probably will use the frequencies on other flights in the future. It's a huge improvement on JFK-GRU (from 17 flights on october/05 to 35 flights on april/06), and i don't believe the yields will keep so good for everyone.
The question IMO is who will be the first to reduce service to JFK.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6343 times:

It's about time Delta linked JFK and South America.

User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6305 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
....JFK rules when it comes to O&D traffic, but DL will compete with AA, RG, JJ, CO and JL on this route.....

The American general public travelling to Brasil knows four airlines for service to Brasil... AA, DL, CO, UA. In the New York market Delta is a very hefty hitter, and being as that it is in SkyTeam there are scores of connecting possibilities at JFK for Delta to use.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
why not think outside of the box and be the first US carrier to offer service to Brasilia or Manaus?

If I am not mistaken Manaus, and Brasilia cannot be served by a U.S. airline at current.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
- Varig is using two of their best 777's, with PTVs on all classes. Varig is also the king of this route with 11 weekly frequencies and keep ahead in terms of connections to/from Brazil. RG keep the best economy cabin for this route IMO.

Varig, has done this before... We will have to play wait and see. In the passed Varig said they were at JFK with the 777 for good, and then a rattling MD-11 was back on the route due to the airlines almost laughable financial woes.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
- Delta (?). If they use a 767-300ER without PTV's their economy will be out-of-date for the route. If they do not upgrade their business cabin, they cannot imagine to be best than Tam, and Delta does not offer connections on Brazil !

Have you flown Varig? Past, or Present. I would not exactly call Varig a "stable" airline, with "stable" service standards. In addition it is unfortunate but true, many Americans prefer U.S. airlines over Latin American.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
A question, how many connections they offer from JFK that would be better than ATL ?

You would be suprised at how many people will go to great lengths to avoid the mess that is ATL. One of the major advantages for Delta Airlines at JFK, is that its operation is compact and not spread out over different terminals. Delta Airlines frequent fliers are aware of this. In addition O/D is a key factor. Even if a flight goes out with 65% to start, and then gains a higher LF they are doing good.

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 19):
It's about time Delta linked JFK and South America

They want JFK-EZE, very badly!


KAHALA777


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4030 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6287 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):
However, the Brazilian frequencies are so valuable DL can't afford to give them up.

This has been my beef all along with bilaterals that restrict flight frequencies: Airlines make poor decisions about their routes (e.g., 2 x ATL-GRU) and then in order to save their share of the pie will add service between Xique-Xique and Chattanooga if they have to. Government officials that have nothing better to do distort the economic decisions of businesses with petty regulation.

Delta coming to JFK-GRU is excellent news to the travelers in the local market though. In order to fill out their plane it will be close to a ticket giveaway. I don't know if they will make money but with the current exchange rate there will be plenty of willing travelers.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6283 times:

The route that JFK, really needs is GIG!


KAHALA777


User currently offlineFewsolarge From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6234 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 8):
Delta is kicking SA)">AA's butt internationally.

I don't know about all that.

But SA)">DL has to start somewhere in its long-planned expansion from JFK into SA. GRU would seem like the perfect market, as difficult as the challenges may be. They have a formidable frequent flyer base in NYC, so they're not exactly starting from scratch. But IMHO, they'll want to pour on more SA destinations pronto to build critical mass. Maybe if they reduce their system gate turn times to 5 minutes, they can squeeze another 100 virtual aircraft out of their fleet.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33032 posts, RR: 71
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6164 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 20):
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
why not think outside of the box and be the first US carrier to offer service to Brasilia or Manaus?

If I am not mistaken Manaus, and Brasilia cannot be served by a U.S. airline at current.

Of course they can. American Airlines even applied for Miami-Manaus a few years ago. The seven frequencies ended up going to Continental for Houston-Sao Paulo. There are no restrictions on what Brazilian airports US airlines can fly too. Assuming a new US-Brazil bilatteral is reached soon, as expected, look for AA to be flying to Brasilia by next winter.



a.
25 Post contains images Brasuca : It's inconceivable to think that an airline management board is stupid, so I'd rather think that my idea is the only stupid thing in this case. Don't
26 Post contains links LipeGIG : Yes they have done this in the past and stop (as their only competitor was AA). As soon as Tam confirm their new service to JFK, Varig has prepared P
27 BigGSFO : So are the two 2 767's required for this flight are coming from...?? Given their recent trans-atlantic announcement, additional Hawaii flights and now
28 LipeGIG : BigGSFO, they will use the 2 767's nowadays on the second daily ATL-GRU or they will change with other planes. Felipe
29 BSBIsland : From the second ATL-GRU that will be dropped.
30 Post contains images MD90fan : Not gonna happen its probably a 763/ER Maybe DL will start another Latin America expansion next year
31 Flyguy1 : Will RG keep these year round?
32 PPVRA : The 777s or the extra frequencies? The 777s are definately on the route for good, but the frequencies I think will be temporary. They could keep them
33 Kahala777 : JAL has been on the route for several years as well with the 747-400. KAHALA777
34 Avianca : I can imagine that DL will route a big part of the european origin passengers to gru via this new jfk flight regrards avianca
35 Kahala777 : Bingo..... KAHALA777
36 Flyguy1 : I was referring to the frequencies.
37 BSBIsland : Based on this, Delta will not only have to compete with RG, AA, JJ, CO and JL, but also with LH, AF, TP, IB, BA, KL, AZ, PU, LX... tough competition.
38 Post contains images AA767400 : Are we in highschool?
39 MarkATL : VERY TRUE about ATL. I live in Atlanta have been known to drive to BHM just to avoid that horror of an airport. I also go to the Greenville (SC) area
40 Avianca : nyc is more attractive to connect from europe to gru than via dfw (aa) and anyway AA is offering this and I can imagine that they are able to sell se
41 Wjcandee : Well, I have spent the past few years going regularly to and from ATL. Provided that I'm not trying to depart ATL at 9am or 5pm, it's perfectly easy,
42 LipeGIG : Dec-March and June-August only. But there are plans on RG to run 11x year round (the 777 remains parked at JFK during all the day). But with so much
43 2travel2know : IMHO, If DL wants to hold to those ATL-GRU slots and make good use of them, then better use them for daily JFK-GIG-GRU. Yes, the money is in GRU, but
44 Kahala777 : Is it possible to see Delta Airlines change Brasilian service to the following: ATL-GIG 1x 767-400 ATL-GRU 1 x 767-400 JFK-GRU 1 x 767-400 The demand
45 Post contains links A330323X : Continental has filed an objection to Delta's plan to move seven of its U.S.-Brazil frequencies to the JFK-GRU market. http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/
46 Kahala777 : Last I checked Continental Airlines served Newark and not JFK. The only airline that should have a problem with this is AA who does operate ex JFK. I
47 FlyPNS1 : I'm not so sure about that. If simply moving frequencies between gateways justified a carrier-selection proceeding, then we would be having lots of s
48 Klwright69 : I wonder whether the frequent flyer base is really enough. DL could not gain traction on certain routes like JFK to NRT and JFK to DEN. Others have a
49 Incitatus : What? Which planet are you on?
50 Post contains links A330323X : AA's slots/frequencies are much older and operate under different (grandfathered) rules. Ditto for UA. In the filing you quote from (would be nice if
51 A330323X : You're not seeing the whole picture. CO has no interest in JFK-GRU. CO wants a U.S.-Brazil carrier selection proceeding so that DL's plans for JFK-GR
52 Post contains images Incitatus : Both American and United inherited very old flexible rights from airlines that don't exist anymore. So their pool of frequencies is made of flex and
53 Kahala777 : Denver is to close to Salt Lake to justify expending an aircraft on the route. And while you are at it. Delta needed to cut routes that didnt make mo
54 RwSEA : Maybe it's time for DL to consider dumping CO as a codeshare partner. CO isn't really adding anything to DL's network anymore with DL's expansions in
55 2travel2know : Wouldn't be easier if DL is to fly ATL-GRU, ATL-GIG and JFK-GIG, CO is to fly EWR-GRU, IAH-GRU and (who know's) IAH-GIG??
56 Post contains images RwSEA : Well, it sounds like no matter what DL tries (e.g. JFK-GRU or JFK-GIG), CO will still throw their hissyfit.
57 LipeGIG : Could be a smart move to DL, and as they are partners at SkyTeam, they could code-share EWR-GRU and JFK-GIG with CO. Felipe
58 Cure : Are there really so many passengers flying from Brazil to South Africa? I think Delta is more feeding CDG (Skyteam), the "half-square" is much more p
59 Klwright69 : No, not "of course." I thought AA had also, but wasn't sure, so I didn't include it! You have added more information to my point that DL's base of fr
60 2travel2know : SA JNB-GRU is one of the airlines most profitable routes. I think CPT from USA via Brazil could be interesting. DL or CO could try flying GRU/GIG-CPT
61 Avianca : its often also attractive for travellers from your mention citys, as the fares via the us are often less than on the direct flights. yes the little p
62 BSBIsland : SAA is successful on this route because they offer a great variety of connections from JNB to many cities in Africa, they are the only player in this
63 A330323X : If you're suggesting that DL doesn't do the same exact thing and complain when other airlines make filings, you clearly have no idea how things work.
64 LawnDart : Are there really fifth freedom rights for US carriers between Brasil and South Africa? I don't know. However, for example, ATL-GRU-JNB is about 9,200
65 2travel2know : If an U.S. airline is to fly between Brazil and JNB, this airline would go head-to-head with SA, but if they decide for CPT instead, they could be of
66 LipeGIG : DL is under negotiations with Gol as well as CO and AF, but the agreement is not working yet. No As per the bilateral , american carriers only can fl
67 Tsnamm : CO has already operated EWR-GIG and with a 767-200...it was cancelled...CO already operates IAH-GIG via GRU...CO also ran EWR-CNF and pulled out of t
68 Airzim : Nope DC10-30 Nope. The flight went EWR-GRU-CNF to get another rotation out of the plane instead of it sitting in GRU all day. It obviously didn't wor
69 Post contains links and images A330323X : Well, DL got the authority. They were able to turn some of CO's previous filings against them. Upon seeing DL's response to CO, I'm not terribly surpr
70 Post contains images MasseyBrown : DA had shown an April 1, 2006 startup date, only a bit more than 3 months away. I think DOT really tries to move on these short-fuse international ma
71 LipeGIG : Rio keep a strong base of premium customers. The main problem is that Sao Paulo hub's most of the flights (as it's consolidate almost ALL brazilian i
72 Post contains images A330323X : Oh, I agree that the DOT *should* move quickly in these cases with near start-up dates (and in general, really), but I could point out a dozen cases
73 FlyPNS1 : I'm glad to see that the DOT didn't allow this to drag into a carrier selection proceeding. DL's response was very to the point and it was funny to s
74 MasseyBrown : Yes, indeed; they have certainly done that in the past. Lately, however, I think they're getting better. The LAX-MEX and the IAH-EZE cases come to mi
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