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Boeing Fools Itself With Qantas Deal  
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15996 times:

Hello everybody,

I read the Excellent Article On The Qantas 787 Vs A350 Choice (by ClassicLover Dec 16 2005 in Civil Aviation) topic, and the http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,17591854%255E23349,00.html Australian article about what happened in the underground of the order.

Quote
Gregg says the decision could have gone either way and probably would have gone to Airbus had it been made earlier.

"Boeing must have moved quite a few big boulders out of the way to suddenly give us access to the 787 far, far earlier than we ever expected we could get it.

"Without that, they would have been very hard pressed to have won the deal."



Well, I see a clear loser in this ménage-à-trois outcome :

Qantas ? No way, they got a huge discount ! Above their hopes, after the final rush bid.

Airbus ? Not, because they didn't even compete for real (without knowing it). Qantas needed the airplanes way before the EIS of A350.

Boeing ? The donkey of the day. Why ? Because being pressed by Airbus, they lowered the price. No, I am not saying what you think ! Instead, Boeing lowered the price while being the sole competitor ! From the beginning, only the 787 would have matched the timing of the Qantas order.

Rumours are indicating a 50% discount price offered to Qantas. Around $80 millions/frame. Well, imagine an offer at $85 or $90 millions/piece : They were still sole competitors, still with a good price ; Qantas would have nothing to do but order Boeing.

A minor $5 millions difference multiplied by 65 is $326 millions worth. Frames sold at $90 millions/piece would make $650 millions difference worth.

Boeing has just lost several hundred millions $ without knowing [one of] the principal Qantas condition, the early availability, not knowing they were competing solely, not knowing Airbus is not a threat.

Sure, they got the deal, but still lost several hundred millions $ for nothing.

If you don't call that a paradox ......  Smile

147 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15972 times:

Right, Boeing just won an order for 65 new airplanes and they are the loser....you dont seriously believe that, do you? Next, you will tell us that they are celebrating in Tolouse over the loss of the QF order.

Do you really think that the men and women at Boeing dont know what they are doing?

And they say that some Boeing supporters are overzealous....


User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15949 times:

If Boeing kept their price at list, think QF would have waited 2 years, and leased 330's while they waited for A350's?


-AJR-
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15942 times:

While Boeing didn't get the list price, I highly doubt they're selling at a lost. I'm not sure if you've ever noticed but Boeing posts record profits yearly - obviously someone knows what they're doing.

I'm suggesting deletion as this is another flamebait in the making...



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15941 times:

Did all the grapes in Europe suddenly turn sour? I'm sure seeing a lot of it on this board.

God only know what the Airbus fanboys will do if SQ chooses Boeing.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineZoom1018 From Vietnam, joined May 2005, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15862 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
Right, Boeing just won an order for 65 new airplanes and they are the loser....you dont seriously believe that, do you? Next, you will tell us that they are celebrating in Tolouse over the loss of the QF order.

Do you really think that the men and women at Boeing dont know what they are doing?

If Airbus won the order, would it be a loser as well, in your opinions?


User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15842 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
Right, Boeing just won an order for 65 new airplanes and they are the loser....you dont seriously believe that, do you?

Not at all. But they could have win the order + several hundred millions dollars more.

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 2):
If Boeing kept their price at list, think QF would have waited 2 years, and leased 330's while they waited for A350's?

I'm not talking about price list, but 45% discount instead of 50% (for exemple). Multiplied by 65, that's a huge sum.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 3):
While Boeing didn't get the list price, I highly doubt they're selling at a lost.

I'm not talking about selling at lost. Re-read again.

Some people are so stressed about the A vs B daily flame that don't realize there are still interesting ideas to debate. My view is that Boeing did compete solely. Let's postpone the A vs B flame for another day. Qantas fooled them, not Airbus.


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9623 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15794 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

So, you are saying that Qantas had NO intention of buying the A350, based on a later EIS?

Do you really believe that?


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15783 times:

It is a wonder how Boeing has survived this long without the incisive financial analysis of Tarom A380...How could they make such a glaring and obvious error? Tarom should send Boeing a resume. The financial markets are apparently even dumber than Boeing as evidenced by the stock trading near its 52-week high.

User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15759 times:

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 6):
I'm not talking about price list, but 45% discount instead of 50% (for exemple). Multiplied by 65, that's a huge sum.

Why if Boeing didn't offer it, it would be worth it to Qantas to take the Airbus deal and lease A330's until the 350 came.



-AJR-
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15753 times:

This is all quite speculative. It is not at all clear that Boeing would have won the order had they not lowered the price. There is some indication in various quotes of QF executives that Airbus would have won the deal had Boeing not lowered their price. Anyway, we're unlikely ever to know for certain.

User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15714 times:

From the article I read, the EIS was quiet important.

I don't think $5 milions more/frame would have determined Qantas to wait 2 more years, disrupting all fleet plans made. Certainly a bigger difference, yes, but not 5%. They desperately bid till the last minute, while the winner was already known. They bid for nothing, at least in the final rush.


User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15690 times:

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 11):
They desperately bid till the last minute, while the winner was already known. They bid for nothing, at least in the final rush.

Wow, sounds like you were there...



-AJR-
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15673 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 8):
It is a wonder how Boeing has survived this long without the incisive financial analysis of Tarom A380...How could they make such a glaring and obvious error? Tarom should send Boeing a resume. The financial markets are apparently even dumber than Boeing as evidenced by the stock trading near its 52-week high.

If you want to say something about my eventual misinterpretation of the article, I'm waiting. It could be possible. It's a debate forum or not ? Don't you think at all that the requested EIS chosen the winner before the final rush bid ? Not even a little ? If not, why ? I'm sure you can write something on topic.


Edit: I was not there, I'm only speculating what I read.

[Edited 2005-12-17 03:17:05]

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15642 times:

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 13):
Don't you think at all that the requested EIS chosen the winner before the final rush bid ?

That's not clear. It was an important factor, but it was not the only factor. Airbus may have been offering a much lower price. All we know (if reports are true) is that after all the numbers were fed into QF's model, the calculated comparison numbers were very close. The availability date was just one of many factors that produced that very close result.


User currently offlineTrevD From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 327 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15599 times:

Tarom - no disrespect but your own post refutes your point. You quote Gregg in the article stating that the decision could have gone Airbus' way, while later suggesting the order was Boeing's all the time and that Airbus was not even in the running.

Quoting TaromA380 (Thread starter):
the decision could have gone either way and probably would have gone to Airbus had it been made earlier.



Quoting TaromA380 (Thread starter):
Boeing lowered the price while being the sole competitor ! From the beginning, only the 787 would have matched the timing of the Qantas order.

I don't think you help your credibility with these contradictory posts...At the same time you indirectly (and unintentionally I'm sure) insult and minimize peoples efforts. I'm sure the Airbus sales team ran a hard fought campaign to win this deal and would not appreciate you minimizing their efforts.

Trev...


User currently offlineCleco From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 569 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15598 times:

Sometimes I think the only reason that they show the flag of the users origin is so that we know who to argue with in A v B posts

[Edited 2005-12-17 03:25:30]


EMBRY-RIDDLE BABY
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15574 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 14):
All we know (if reports are true) is that after all the numbers were fed into QF's model, the calculated comparison numbers were very close.

Yes, financial comparison numbers were very close, while EIS were very different. That makes the bid unbalanced (little or more). This could be translated into $$$ gain or lost. I have only observed this detail, not bashed Boeing. Please feel free to don't harass me. Smile


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15566 times:

Boeing won the order. Does it really matter how? Get over it and move on to the next battle...

But if you insist...the availability date was obviously very important to QF, and Boeing could deliver that where Airbus couldn't, so they won. What again was the point of this thread other than to point out the obvious, that QF might have gone with Airbus.


User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15564 times:

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 13):
I'm only speculating what I read.

Don't present your speculation as fact.



-AJR-
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2510 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15528 times:

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 6):
But they could have win the order + several hundred millions dollars more

Yes, well this is part of price quoting and sales in any business. You quote a price and customer either accepts or rejects it, usually after a period of negotiation. There is always 2nd guessing after the fact. If you win the bid, you wonder if you bid too low and could have made more profit. If you lose, you wonder if you got too greedy and could have settled for less profit. Believe me, there is a minimum price below which Boeing would not sell the aircraft. They are NOT taking a loss on these. So please, don't refer to their sales team as the "donkeys" in this deal. Just a guess, but I'll bet they know a little more about selling their aircraft than you do.


User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15482 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 18):
Boeing won the order. Does it really matter how? Get over it and move on to the next battle...

Are you talking to me ? I'm not Leahy not Airbus, I don't own any A380 if you were thinking about my nickname. Enough disclaimers, ok ?


It's a speculation of course (name 3 non-speculation topics on A.net, quickly  Smile), but I found that detail interesting to share with you. Qantas smartly made them fight to death till the end, while their desired EIS was met by one single competitor. Could you say it's not true ?


User currently onlineContnlEliteCMH From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1458 posts, RR: 44
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15435 times:

Quoting ER757 (Reply 20):
Yes, well this is part of price quoting and sales in any business. You quote a price and customer either accepts or rejects it, usually after a period of negotiation. There is always 2nd guessing after the fact. If you win the bid, you wonder if you bid too low and could have made more profit. If you lose, you wonder if you got too greedy and could have settled for less profit. Believe me, there is a minimum price below which Boeing would not sell the aircraft. They are NOT taking a loss on these. So please, don't refer to their sales team as the "donkeys" in this deal. Just a guess, but I'll bet they know a little more about selling their aircraft than you do.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I am *personally* going through this very process right now. I submitted a bid to a local company to deliver a small BI application. I quoted four FTE's for three months. It's my company's first serious bid to a client who needs a team of people. And it's a lot of money. As in, could easily exceed a quarter million dollars in 13 weeks.

The difference between me and Tarom A380 is that I know exactly what my costs are; he hasn't any clue what Boeing's costs are for the 787. If the client comes back to negotiate, you can bet I'm going to start cutting rate. Their job is to get as much out of me for as little money as possible. My job is to get as much money as they will possibly pay for the work required.

In the past week, I have gone through the very thought process you write many, many times. Am I being greedy with triple figure hourly rates? Can I convince them that this purchase should be made on value, not on cost? Do I have a competitor who thinks they can do it for $50/hour per person? If so, are they using H1B's or something?

If I win, it will still be hugely profitable -- even if they drive my price down by 25%. And win or lose, it will be a meaningful learning experience, because you can bet I'll ask why I lost.



Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15410 times:

Quoting TaromA380 (Thread starter):
The donkey of the day

Right. It is healthy to find ways to console oneself.

Yet again we have a clear example that Airbus fans need to remember when they get fussy about Boeing fans "bashing" Airbus. It's a two way street.


User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15401 times:

Everyday life is a bid, in a way or another. However, sometimes we have some remorse after offering a very low price, while the circumstances were more favourable to us than to the competitor. That's all.

I still think Qantas fooled Boeing. A little.  Smile


25 Sq212 : Airbus could provide A330 as interim to solve the EIS issue. Also QF will become the launch customer of 789 and their EIS is even later than A359.
26 11Bravo : Much of your argument also rests on the assumption that the “rumors” regarding a 50% discount are accurate. As far as I know, those rumors are jus
27 Post contains links N79969 : If you want a classic example of leaving money on the table, look at what Airbus did in Syria...Boeing cannot even compete against them in that countr
28 Post contains images Stitch : I guess by this logic QR is a loser because they're waiting for the A350 while giving up their 787 slots which probably went to QF to meet their EIS d
29 ER757 : I feel your pain - story of my life at the office every day........
30 Post contains images TaromA380 : Nope. However that doesn't stop me to discuss around this detail. The different EIS could unbalance a close financial match. Maybe I exagerated with
31 Post contains images Stitch : I am sure it is, but airlines look at the TCO. QF will not pick the 787 if their models showed the A350 was better, even if it was later. Unless QF's
32 Gatorman96 : Boeing might have lost a couple "hundred million dollars," but they landed an order that is worth billions, which Airbus will see none of. Plus this o
33 NAV20 : Interesting to speculate on the 'strategic thinking' of both companies. Airbus must be worried that, for whatever reason, they are selling mostly unpr
34 Post contains images TaromA380 : - the order is obviously a *BIG* win for Boeing - in my opinion they just could have done "some" economy - Airbus was already out of the game because
35 Mexicana757 : So your saying that Airbus shouldn't have wasted their time with Qantas just because the A350 is not available when Qantas wants it? Give me a break.
36 Post contains images Gatorman96 : You can't lose something you never had. As long as Boeing turns a profit from this order, it doesn't really matter. I got ya...I hope Leahy and his b
37 Dhefty : True, but a second 787 line isn't all that difficult, since it is only final assembly. The ability of the various subcontractors to ramp up productio
38 777STL : There's a couple things wrong with your conjectures. Number one, overall you're basing your conclusions on second hand information and rumors, not th
39 Islandboy : This thread might have been a little objective if someone with a un-biased opinion had started it. It's quite clear your only stipulating rumours and
40 HZ747300 : Sure because Airbus has never given anything away. They always hold on pricing and never offer discounts. They don't have to, because they offer Euro
41 707lvr : We seem to be under the impression that Boeing is in a begging and pleading mode, throwing out all the rules to make sales. The fact is that the U.S.
42 Post contains images Astuteman : Absolutely right. This rule applies to both manufacturers, BTW. Right again. Sums it up perfectly. Nothing else needs to be said on this thread. Nice
43 Post contains images UALMMFlyer : Based on the analogy of the OP, then does that mean Airbus is a loser in all the A380 deals? There is no competing aircraft to the A380, therefore for
44 Zvezda : EIS were plugged into the financial model. The close numbers spat out by QF's model had already accounted for the difference in EIS.
45 Cfalk : Definately not. Unlike what Airbus has done in the past, when they were trying to gain market share and using subsidies to do it, Boeing is 100% priv
46 Alessandro : Well, money isn´t only made from selling airplanes but spare parts and maintenance is also a big cash-cow´s. So I don´t think Boeing make any mista
47 Glareskin : Tarom, I think you're having a point. And the Syrian Airbus case that N79969 pointed out is not the only other case. In all business negotiations ther
48 Post contains images Glideslope : LOL. Sour grapes. If you can't take the heat, get out of the oven. It's 2005, not 1955. You do what you need to in order to win. Boeing is pounding A
49 Post contains images Manni : Please enlighten us, to what exactely does Airbus need to respond when it comes to the 737? As it stands now, Airbus has had significantly more order
50 Widebody : Very little people will ever know what factors tipped this deal, mainly because of the complexity in the method of choice. Some of the posters above a
51 Glom : This sounds like a textbook case of a child who gets upset when he loses a race. I know, I've done it once or twice. When the kid loses the race, he s
52 Leelaw : My take on Mr. Gregg's comments as reported in The Australian: very slim on substance and very long on Mr. Gregg's understandable bid for a little sel
53 Alessandro : Glide, 787 superior? Haven´t flown yet, only superior is that it fly earlier not later than the A350.
54 N79969 : This is exactly right. By all credible accounts, this was among the most intense competitions between the two companies in a long time. The suggestio
55 Post contains images TaromA380 : If Zvezda is right, then all my assumption fall: From what I understood it was a hard battle, perhaps the order of the year (let aside the EK "how to
56 Post contains images Astuteman : WTF?
57 InitRef : One source I have says that QF is paying less than $65million per airframe. If this is in fact true (and I do trust this source, but then again, actua
58 NAV20 : Someone 'rumoured' a similar figure from either or both manufacturers just before the announcement, InitRef. Now you mention the word 'airframe,' thou
59 BoeingBus : For all of you who think that Boeing is a "Donkey" like Tarom suggests here... than all I can say is "sour grapes" my friend. Sorry send me your addre
60 Post contains images UALMMFlyer : Let's start a thread on "Airbus fools itself with all A380 deals entered with lower than full published prices". If all the arguments about Boeing foo
61 Post contains images Leothedog : Remember... You can always sell below cost and make it up in volume.
62 StuckInCA : He wanted a flame-war, not a debate. The problem, in my opinion, is that he didn't proposet that perhaps Boeing could have gotten more money and that
63 Post contains images TaromA380 : I do not master English language so well and I certainly missed some nuances. What are you saying is my original intention: With a little humour sense
64 Post contains images Islandboy : No more so than the "A" cheerleaders in cardiac arrest over QF decision. I mean the audacity of QF not to choose the A350. Reality will sink in soon
65 Bazzaldonbond : Boring Topic! YAWN yet another A v B topic.
66 BestWestern : How do the moderators even let these threads grow so far.. Should have been deleted after post 1
67 Jumbojet : You have to be kidding me, you can't find anything more worth while to pick on Boeing with? They got the order and Airbus didn't, get over it. This o
68 Singel09 : delete topic from forum ... forum gets boaring .. more and more ... no news, just speculation from people who often have no clue what they are talking
69 D5DBY : and what do you know about that? right nothing........
70 Galapagapop : I think this was a case of delivery times, not as much of price.
71 TaromA380 : Hé hé. That's true, another funny thing. If end of story, go to sleep and stop reading all speculations. E.g. this forum full of it. It's my right
72 AirPacific747 : As you said yourself, it is only a rumor so don't rely too much on your source(s)
73 SAS330GOT : There might be a bias from taromA380 torwards Airbus. But I think the question is, based on facts or rumors. Did Boeing make a mistake with lowering t
74 AirPacific747 : Is that a fact?
75 Blue787 : As I see it: Boeing got the order. Airbus did not. I can just imagine Boeing crying "we could have got another 5% from QF."
76 Post contains images Stitch : Okay, maybe they did. And if so, that doesn't make Boeing "idiots". What would make Boeing "idiots" is if they had lost the deal to the A350 if indee
77 SAS330GOT : In terms of a true capitalistic agenda this should happen. But I do not belive they do. I would say boeing is celebrating the order. What I was tryin
78 NYC777 : Yeah, I'm sure Boeing employees are shaking their fist at the sky saying "Damn you, Qantas!!!" Boeing is going to go out of business because of that
79 Ukkiwibird : Boring Topic! YAWN yet another A v B topic. God yes. Note the USA flags-- Airbus bash. Note EU flags ------ Boeing bash! Are there any USA flags that
80 Stitch : *raises hand* Airbus is my preferred narrowbody platform. As a UA flyer, I actively schedule A319 and A320 flights over 733/735/752s when possible.
81 N79969 : I disagree with the idea that this thread should deleted or that it is pure "flamebait." There is an argument in there. But I think it is pure wishful
82 TaromA380 : For the sooner EIS Airbus could not match ? Donkey or dumb or little fool term was just for the final bid, from what I understood from that article.
83 Widebody : Let me throw this out there for the benefit of TaromA380, but I could (but won't) give you 2 cases (and one unconfirmed other) when one of the big two
84 Ckfred : Phil Condit said some time ago that Boeing was quiting the idea of selling prices at low prices, simply to beat Airbus. Boeing was better off selling
85 Post contains images Lumberton : Scott Carson, Boeing's chief salesman, also stated they weren't going to do "silly deals". I see this thread as simply "sour grapes". Get over it. Pe
86 DL021 : Well, to be fair, your use of the term donkey was rather inflammatory and you could have expressed your self differently than by implying that winning
87 Zvezda : Some people on both sides got a little out-of-hand on this. I really don't believe Tarom intended to start an A vs. B war. I think he misunderstood h
88 Lumberton : Well, let's see...A343, A345, A320, A319, A318, A332, A300-600F. This is an eclectic thing but I nominate the A345.
89 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : sure....here's mine...... MyAviation.net photo: Photo © Jacobin777 note the comment in the picture: "what a beauty!"
90 Dougloid : I dunno guys-I'm inclined to believe there is something in Tarom's analysis that's a little more solid than hot air. IF you believe the article and I
91 PlaneDane : Yes, count me in. The A332 is one of my very favorite aircraft. I also admire and prefer almost anything else European too such as cars, watches, ele
92 AirPacific747 : Ok, so maybe Boeing didn't earn as much on those planes as they wanted to; however, maybe it will help boosting the sales of the 787 when they see whi
93 Atmx2000 : Except QF said they would have probably gone Airbus except for the fact that Boeing was able to get 2008 delivery slots. My view is that Qantas was s
94 Dougloid : A friend of mine says "there's a way you can tell whether you're in heaven or hell" In hell, the cooks are British, the police are German, the mechan
95 Anxebla : There is a thing which is all true: Boeing has earned money in this deal. Airbus should try harder in order to increase the A-330/A-350s sales
96 Dougloid : Lotta IF's there, of course...but it's an entertaining idea-it's plausible enough if you accept the premises.
97 Post contains images AirPacific747 : haha I haven't heard that one before! But, I think that the reputation British cooks have is not fair. A lot has changed, and you can get great tasti
98 Atmx2000 : I didn't count a single if.
99 JumboJim747 : Would they get the options also at the discounted price.? Cheers
100 Incitatus : Despite the lack of substance from the original poster, this thread has survived like weed! Let's see if I get this right: Boeing wins an order. Boein
101 Post contains images Ukkiwibird : To all the above For a moment , i thought this thread had turned into a nationalistic one. I am glad that people from both sides ( well it seems to be
102 Post contains images Anxebla : Good question! No-one know how deep were the Airbus' discounts to IB with the exception of some IB seniors managers, Airbus management and 4 or 5 peo
103 BoomBoom : Me too. There is much to be admired about Europe. I love traveling there and we can learn a lot from them. I prefer the A320 to the 737. Why? Because
104 N79969 : I think a game theorist is needed here. The bottom line is that Qantas got a good deal because they played two sides off of one another. Both companie
105 Elvis777 : Hello all, well it looks like the QF loss stung a bit, at least to the A.net community that was hoping for an EADS win. So much so that they are strug
106 Glom : I'm not so sure. Have another read of the OP. That's a lot of inflammatory language in there. He called Boeing the loser of the three, even though th
107 PITrules : Boeing the donkey? If Airbus would have won this order if the A350 were available 2 years earlier, then Airbus only has themselves to blame. Why isn't
108 ER757 : Well, I don't know that it's a FACT that the 350 is an inferior plane to the 787 since neither has flown yet. Let's at least wait til they are built
109 Post contains images TaromA380 : I missed that event. In fact, that order wasn't followed the next day by a similar article, talking about its underground, isn't it ? I know many of
110 Post contains images NAV20 : Nice going, Tarom, good comeback! Who wrote that, it's brilliant? Only thing is, with all due respect, I'm not sure that "Boeing fools itself....." qu
111 Incitatus : I don't have a ready reference but the dealings between Iberia and Boeing/Airbus were widely publicized. Iberia played all its cards and borrowed and
112 Marara : Guys do we all forget 5 years ago when Boeing were almost sure to get the 777 order. They prob did what the OP is suggesting didnt happen this time an
113 Aileron11 : TaromA380, repeat after me I'm so . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jealous and can not accept the fact that Boeing RULES!
114 DAYflyer : And the same thing could be said of Airbus with the US Airways order. I'm sure they are still making a profit....although perhaps not as big as they
115 Post contains images Stitch : Your latest post was more amusing then your first, TaromA380, but no less silly.
116 Post contains images AirPacific747 : hehe
117 Hawker : I can't understand how Qantas can say they were initially going for the 350 when it is still a paper airplane. Presumably Airbus can always adjust the
118 AvObserver : "Phil Condit said some time ago that Boeing was quiting the idea of selling prices at low prices, simply to beat Airbus. Boeing was better off selling
119 Anxebla : IB never never thought seriously in the 777s. The uinique thing important for IB was getting the best deal to buy the 340-600. Period! ...and by the
120 Post contains links Blsbls99 : Iberia was offered a combo of 777-200ER and 777-300ER. http://www.flightinternational.com/A...+facelift+for+long-haul+fleet.html
121 Bazzaldonbond : God is this topic still going. WHO CARES WHO ONE.
122 Post contains images Astuteman : We don't need another one. We've had dozens already Agree with all of that, BoeingBus. Methinks the picture is always bigger than many of us mere mor
123 PanAm_DC10 : Respectfully, I do not agree. The IB RFP in 2003 was for the A346 v B773ER. Boeing offered the 773ER not the 773A. Yes they did think seriously about
124 PVD757 : As far as I'm concerned, the loss to Boeing means that the A350 is that much closer to not being built. If they lose the other major orders pending, t
125 NAV20 : I'd be surprised if Airbus didn't already have, or could easily gain access to, the 'advanced technologies' that Boeing is using. I reckon that their
126 Trex8 : or making them at a loss so you have to take billions in charges and see your share prices drop as Boeing managed to do so astutely during the last u
127 Art : Of extra profit on the airframes deal, if your analysis is right. With all the after sales revenue to come over the years, underpricing the frames do
128 NAV20 : Trex8, about the rumoured $65M., it's coming pretty clear that that is for the airframes only. The 'list price' of the 787 is $130M., but that presuma
129 N79969 : I do not think Airbus is stupid. However because they report a different sort of master, I think definition of being screwed is a little different to
130 Trex8 : man those new engines must be real expensive because you can get a GECF6-50 or 80 for about 10 million each now!(CI paid about 700 million for engine
131 Manni : Let's be realistic here. A discount of 5 to 10 million US$ on an airframe worth 70 to 80 million (engines not included) would be a discount of 6.25%
132 Atmx2000 : Bleedless was for taking advantage of cheaper electric systems and perhaps some weight savings, not reducing maintenance. There will be plenty of par
133 Anxebla : That's right. I know very well like IB works. As an IB former worker, being my father a F/A retired and having friends who are F/A, pilots and groud
134 FiveMileFinal : Oh, come ON, man. You know you were stirring the pot with the "donkey" remark. Don't get mad because people are calling you on it. For the record, I
135 NAV20 : Actually he didn't, Manni - he said that the competition was very close. But I admit that the figures I quoted above are guesses, based on limited ev
136 Post contains images PanAm_DC10 : Anxebla We are right off topic It's good to see we agree on one thing As you are free to believe your sources. However, in my case, I shall again, res
137 Post contains images Anxebla : ¿si? Can you speak Spanish? Again: NO! I'm totally sure about this point. But anyhow, you are free to believe me or not. About that I agree with you
138 Jacobin777 : I think the only person to be fooled is the thread starter....
139 Post contains links Manni : The listprice of the 787 is known to be around 130 million US$. The listprice of the engines is unknown, you assume it's 50 to 60 million US$ for a c
140 Backfire : I'd hate to point this out, but come on...do you REALLY believe Boeing didn't think about this? Do you really believe you've managed to work somethin
141 OURBOEING : I don't know of any US carrier that flies an A343/345. I think Air Canada is the only North American carrier that does. OURBOEING
142 Post contains images PanAm_DC10 : Did IB buy the airplanes that best met their requirements at the time, yes. Can 2 A.netters have a civil conversation even if they don't 100% agree,
143 USAF336TFS : Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of this thread, with all due respect to the starter. Frankly, it just sounds like sour grapes to me.
144 N79969 : I do not believe either. If you are correct that would make Iberia the only company ever to pit the A346 versus the baseline 777-300. Boeing is not s
145 Trex8 : but whats not clear is how important the manufacturers perceived the delivery dates that QF required - did QF say it was just one of many requirement
146 Zvezda : It might be possible that this is a specific example of the general human tendency to believe what one wants to believe.
147 Atmx2000 : He meant users with US flags by their name liking those products, not flag carriers.
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