STEELHEAD From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 127 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5673 times:
With the current (and future) fuel prices flying the 727's as freighters must
become a nightmare for the operators.
Especially the parcel carriers also need to think on the noise issue - sooner
or later - as already done in Europe. I'm living near a nightly parcel hub -
even with stage 3 hushkits they are noisy. Not an issue for me, but people
will notice who is making the noise. See Paul Martin and his Starjet 727.
There are a few 737-300's flying around as freighters, but not a single A-320.
Any reason for that ? Some early A-320 are becoming old now - just right
for freighter conversations. Or is there any reason, why an A-320/321 will
not become a good freighter. Especially the A-321 must be very good for
parcel transportation i think.
What will become the future medium cargo aircraft to replace the 727 at
UPS/FedEx, Purolator etc. ?
Cloud4000 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5614 times:
Good question, I suppose.
I guess they're just too new to be turned into freighters at this point, and also too expensive.
Air cargo companies rarely buy new aircraft (except for the odd order here and there), but prefer buying old passenger aircraft and converting them into freighters, that's why you see a lot of 737-300s, 757-200s, 767-200s, DC-10s, MD-11s, A310s, A300s, etc.
In the next few years, I think you'll start seeing A320s turned into freighters eventually.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5591 times:
EADS has the A320F ready to go... it was expected to be available in 2004, but the collapse in funds from airlines pushed that back.
As it is, the routes its optimal for (US domestic parcels) has not recovered to the point long-haui shipping has. Neither FX or 5X seem ready to action that section of their fleets at this time.
Quoting N328KF (Reply 2):
Boeing has an advantage here in that they can sell a factory 737 freighter.
Again, I'm not 100% sure that's an advantage. They aren't modifying 733s and 734s in house at this time, and that's where the sweet spot would be.
The 73GC has not been taken up by anyone commercially, and again., this is not the high margin section of the freighter fleet. It will migrate the same way the pax fleets have, just a generation behind.
We've gone slowly DC-8/707 to D10/727 and then AB6/310/757 next will come the onslaught of M11s, 737s, 757s, and 767s followed later by A320s then 737NGs.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5564 times:
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4): As it is, the routes its optimal for (US domestic parcels) has not recovered to the point long-haui shipping has. Neither FX or 5X seem ready to action that section of their fleets at this time.
Besides, with lots of early build turbofan 737s entering their 20s, they will have lots of fodder to chose from. Better yet, these aircraft wont require hushkit conversion.
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4): We've gone slowly DC-8/707 to D10/727 and then AB6/310/757 next will come the onslaught of M11s, 737s, 757s, and 767s followed later by A320s then 737NGs.
Total agreement, though the 737NG would seem to have an advantage due to lift as compares to its lighter weight. I can actually see 739 PAX versions being replaced in passenger service by 739ERs and that limited fleet undergoing a successful conversion
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Magyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5540 times:
Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 3): Air cargo companies rarely buy new aircraft (except for the odd order here and there),
Yes these are odd orders, but when you look at 5X fleet, they have 51 A300F4-622R in service or to be delivered, 32 new B767-300F, about 75 B757-200PF. Its quit a brand new delivered fleet. Okay, they still have the B747s, B727S and "some" MD-11F all of which are second hand, but 156 new aircraft isn't nothing. And FX has something like 20 newly delivered A300F4-605R, about 23 new MD-11Fs, and still a few DC-10-30Fs they have ordered from the manufacturer. And look at Asia. How many new B744F are flying from this part of the world?
But yes, its not the norm to have a whole fleet of newly delivered cargo haulers.
Reins485 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5496 times:
I was wondering would the A-320 be a better freighter than the 737. B/c I know the A-320 can take containers both on the main deck and in the cargo hold. I would think that FedEx and UPS would really like them because they tend to fill up before they reach MTOW.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5433 times:
Good topic and valid question. Personally, I think the A320 would make an excellent package freighter and would hit the sweetspot for a 727 replacement. With pax versions selling briskly, there's no slack in the existing production lines for a F version; none sitting in the desert for conversion either. Could be that the contemplated offshoring of the A320 line in China could accomodate the demand if Airbus chooses to go this route?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Greasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3076 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5414 times:
Most narrow body freighters fly 1-2 hours then sit on the ground for a few hours then fly back....using an aircraft 4-6 hours a day will not pay the cost. It will be a while before we see large scale replacements for the 727-200..
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
Prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6294 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5401 times:
Time just isn't up yet. The oldest 320 out there is no more than 17 years old.
You don't get a used (say 10 - 15 years old) 320 for free. What lowered the price of a 727 even more was that fact that they for all practical things have become illegal in Europe. Only a few RR reengined 721s soldier on. Hushkitted 722s - no, not acceptable.
"Small" freighters are often involved in a very tight day-to-day delivery schedule which means that they can be utilized very little - one or two sectors five nights a week. To pay interests on a fairly new plane with such a low utilization is expensive. That's why an extremely cheap plane makes sense even if it's a fuel guzzler. With so few hours in the air there is a limit to how much fuel it can burn.
The heavy intercontinental frighters are an entirely different story. They usually fly all the time and are often built as frighters from the factory. Just have a look at the 747F and 380F order books. On the other hand there is no market for new built 737 or 320 frighters.
The densely populated parts of Europe have been very sensitive to nighttime noise during the last 20 years or so. That created a market for the BAe-146 frighter, which is almost silent. Now they are there and they will do perfect service for the next 25 years to come, maybe with a slow addition of a few pax conversions. Besides that large parts of Europe have a very good overnight railway infrastructure.
With the great tunnel under the British Channel Europe isn't separated from Britain any longer.
But as long as a hushkittet 727 is tolerated in the USA, and can be picked up in the desert for $100k, then they will fly Christmas gifts from state to state no matter what the fuel price will be.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5290 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 5): Total agreement, though the 737NG would seem to have an advantage due to lift as compares to its lighter weight.
The difference between the two is miniscule to the point of providing almost no differentation between the platforms. The reports quarter to quarter flop back and forth between the 73G and 319 being the most efficient narrowbody in the class based on average reported selling price.
The A320 can carry containerized cargo on both decks. This could be construed as an advantage.
The A320 entered service almost a decade before. Older ones will come up for conversion first is my guess, long before the 73G but a long while after 733s and 734s.
Cadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5265 times:
correct me if im wrong, but isnt the A320 family a higher sitting a/c than the 737 or 727? could that be the problem for small(er) aircraft operations? example a FX using a 727 and the ground equiptment not being compatable with the 320's?
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
AirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5163 times:
I have thought about this myself. But when I look at an A320 and a 733, the 733 looks like it could handle the stresses of cargo work more than the A320 could. A simple analogy would be a pair of Dockers to a pair of Wranglers. You are not going to see somebody hauling logs in a pair of Dockers, they wouldn't want to rip them. This is the way I see the A320 as a cargo plane. Just my perception.
Molykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1337 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5143 times:
Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 3): Air cargo companies rarely buy new aircraft (except for the odd order here and there), but prefer buying old passenger aircraft and converting them into freighters, that's why you see a lot of 737-300s, 757-200s, 767-200s, DC-10s, MD-11s, A310s, A300s, etc.
I think this at least goes some way toward explaining the lack of A320s as freight airplanes.
Boeing/Douglass aircraft are generally considered to be more robust than Airbus aircraft. Anyone familiar with the SRMs of the types can probably infer this on his own. This is not an attempts to start A v B here. Advantages exist to both schools of thought.
For any given investment on a freighter retrofit the Boeing/Douglass is likely to see a greater time in service - The negatives associated with old passenger airplanes may not apply to freighters.
Of course this must be traded against operating costs, etc.
BryanG From United States of America, joined May 1999, 429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4969 times:
Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 12): correct me if im wrong, but isnt the A320 family a higher sitting a/c than the 737 or 727? could that be the problem for small(er) aircraft operations? example a FX using a 727 and the ground equiptment not being compatable with the 320's?
No problem here. All the heavy cargo handling equipment currently used on the 727 would work fine on the A320. The 757 sits even higher, and all standard equip can be used on that type.
Another thing to consider is the cost of cargo refit. It's not as simple as taking out the seats and cutting a bigger door into the side. The floor might have to be strengthened, which can be costly. It all depends on how the aircraft was originally engineered.
I wonder... did the Airbus designers originally forsee the possibility that the A320 might have a second career as a cargo hauler, and design the plane to be easily convertible?
Lotsamiles From United States of America, joined May 2005, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4932 times:
Another thing to consider is that the A320F would carry only 10 main deck pallets, 2 less than the 727-200F. Granted, the lower deck can be containerized, but only a fraction of the aircraft were delivered that way and the retrofit from Airbus would be expensive.
The 733SF is only 8.5 pallets and the 734SF is 9.5 pallets.
The 752 is 14.5-15 pallets, depending on the conversion and thus allows room for growth in replacement of a 727-200F. All other potential narrow body replacements for the 727-200F require the operator to give up payload or volume, including the 737NG when that time comes.
The extra diameter of the A320 airframe is nice but since all narrow body ULD's are based on the Boeing sized narrow body airframe an airline really would not get the benefit of the extra volume.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 69
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4829 times:
I started a post yesterday which also has mention to the progress of the A320F. May be the following can also be of help to this topic
Taken from the Russian News & Information Agency NOVOSTI,
EADS buys into Irkut
The European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS) has bought a 10% stake in the Russian aviation major, Irkut, for 55 million euros. EADS expects this deal to promote the European A-350 long-haul aircraft that is competing against the U.S. Boeing 787 in the Russian market.
In 2004 Irkut signed a ten-year contract with EADS for the delivery of components for the A-320. The EADS Irkut Seaplane joint venture was set up in 2005 to advance the Russian Be-200 seaplane on Western markets.
Vadim Vlasov, general director of OOO EADS (the Russian subsidiary of EADS), said the European company offered cooperation in three other areas related to Airbus civilian aircraft. Irkut can produce components for the new A-350 aircraft (commercial deliveries are to begin in 2010), as well as contribute to the joint construction of a promising medium-haul aircraft that would replace the A-320. Airbus will start creating the new plane after completing the A-350 project. And lastly, Irkut has been offered the right to participate in a program that will convert the scrapped A-320 aircraft into freighters.
In response, EADS expects Russia to do more than Irkut management can. Aeroflot, Russia's national carrier 51% owned by the Russian government, is holding a tender for new long-haul aircraft worth $2-$3 billion. The carrier is choosing between the A-350 and the Boeing 787 (the latter promises to be slightly cheaper than A-350 and is to be operational two years ahead of it, in 2008).
Vlasov said that the acquisition of A-350s by Aeroflot was the requisite condition for Irkut's admission to the production programs of Airbus and EADS.
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4609 times:
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4): The 73GC has not been taken up by anyone commercially, and again., this is not the high margin section of the freighter fleet. It will migrate the same way the pax fleets have, just a generation behind.