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773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?  
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3075 times:

"Recently, Boeing made enhancements to the 777-300ER that improve the airplane's overall fuel efficiency by 1.4 percent. This amount is in addition to the 2 percent fuel-burn improvement already proven in revenue service by airlines that currently operate the 777-300ER. The 1.4 percent improvement in fuel efficiency equates to an annual savings of approximately 200,000 gallons (757,000 liters) per aircraft."

-Boeing (In regards to Cathay Pacific firming up their new 777 order)


Will all 773ERs delivered from now on incorporate these advancements? Is it an option to airlines? Do they cost more, or Boeing does it as part of their original purchase price?


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20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

One more question:

Can the first few 773ERs be retrofitted to these new advancements?



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5732 posts, RR: 48
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3051 times:

I believe Boeing said that all delivered 773ERs will be retrofitted with the improvments. All future deliveries of the 773ER will already have them incorporated. Nice!


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinePavlin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3022 times:

why wouldnt they be? any particular reason?

User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2941 times:

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 3):
why wouldn't they be? Any particular reason?

Why aren't all 737's fitted with winglets for fuel savings, or 757's? Same logic could have been used depending on said ambiguous improvements.



-AJR-
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30565 posts, RR: 84
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2919 times:
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All to-be-delievered 773ERs will have the improvements.

773ERs delievered before this could probably have the changes made, it would just be up to the operators to decide if it is worth the time and expense vs. the fuel savings.


User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 336 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2900 times:

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 4):
Why aren't all 737's fitted with winglets for fuel savings, or 757's?

Because Boeing does not deliver even any new 737s or 757s with winglets? AFAIK the wnglets are not a Boeing improvement, they are an after market add-on.


User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
I believe Boeing said that all delivered 773ERs will be retrofitted with the improvments. All future deliveries of the 773ER will already have them incorporated. Nice!

You are correct:
The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] has delivered to Air France the first Boeing 777-300ER (Extended Range) airplane that includes enhancements that improve the overall fuel efficiency of the 777-300ER by 1.4 percent. This amount is in addition to the 2 percent fuel-burn improvement already proven in revenue service by the airlines that operate the 777-300ER.

...

The 1.4 percent additional improvement in fuel efficiency was brought about by a number of factors:
  • GE Aircraft Engines modified its powerful GE90-115B engines.

  • Boeing engineers reduced the airplane's drag by modifying the airplane's vortex generators and its air induction systems for the environmental control systems.

  • Engineers also incorporated several weight-reduction improvements to the airplane's internal structure, including lighter weight environmental control-system ducts and main-deck floor panels.
All future 777-300ERs delivered to customers will include these enhancements, and Boeing has plans to incorporate these changes into the 27 777-300ERs currently in service.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/nr_051129g.html

--B2707SST



Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3829 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2813 times:

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...nce++package+deliveries+start.html




Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineAnxebla From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2641 times:

Thank you for your picture and link to flightinternational.com, Confuscius  Smile It's informative and useful too

User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

Very smart of Boeing to modify already delivered aircraft at no cost.

User currently offlineAnxebla From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

Very smart?  boggled 
Boeing (and also Airbus, Embraer or any manufacturer) must giving assistance to their customers for free. It is not fair to the earlier customers having a worst airliner or a plane which burns more fuel. --I think AF would be agree with me on this point--

A adequate, reliable post-sales service is a must for any aircraft manufacturer ...in order to Keep the customer's satisfaction and faithfulness


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2403 times:

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 11):
Very smart?   
Boeing (and also Airbus, Embraer or any manufacturer) must giving assistance to their customers for free. It is not fair to the earlier customers having a worst airliner or a plane which burns more fuel. --I think AF would be agree with me on this point--

Nope, this is the equivalent of a dealer-installed option at an auto dealership. Boeing doesn't have to do this. In fact, we don't know if this is truly free or not. This may just be an optional kit that one would be crazy to pass up on.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineSinlock From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1637 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2337 times:

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 6):
Because Boeing does not deliver even any new 737s or 757s with winglets? AFAIK the wnglets are not a Boeing improvement, they are an after market add-on.

The 737NG winglet is Produced by "Aviation Partners Boeing" it's a joint venture with AP being the controling stake-holder. So Boeing certinly is a major part of the winglet process.

All 737 700/800s built after NG line #746 (around that#) have had a standard wingtip structure and wireing so no major changes need to be made to the aircraft if Winglets are later installed (i.e. everything is bolt on).

Boeing most certinly delivers 737NGs with winglets installed if thats the airlines choice.



My Country can beat up your Country....
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3569 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2140 times:

Saying Boeing MUST provide these enhancements to all past customers is dippy. It would be the same as saying last years autos must be upgraded to this years model enhancements-for free. Boeing already exceeded its performance promises on the earlier models. If Boeing is doing this for free, they are certainly deserving of credit for going above and beyond in customer service.
I'm wondering, how simple a task or is it even possible to replace the main floor sections and environmental control ducts?


User currently offlineQutaiba From Kuwait, joined Dec 2005, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2128 times:

Anxbela,

you're right, the manufacturer ought to provide good support. but (i think) because this is not a priority modification (not safety related) it will be up to the operator negotiaiton skill & leverage to obtain some contribution.

May be those that recieved their aircraft recently will be more fortunate, and definetly those with scheduled deliveries will have a better position to negotiate and so on.

also without the details on how those benefits will be obtained (e.g. trip length, ISA conditions etc...) it may not be significant for an operator with average trip length of (lets say) 3400 Km vs another whose average trip twice as that. But it may affect the asset valuation.



When the tide comes in, all ships will rise
User currently offlineAnxebla From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2071 times:

Quoting Qutaiba (Reply 18):
Anxbela,you're right

Thanks, It's comforting to know I'm not a "weirdo"  Wink

Quoting Qutaiba (Reply 18):
it may not be significant for an operator with average trip length of (lets say) 3400 Km vs another whose average trip twice as that.

The issue here is not range, but economics. And specially nowadays with a very high oil price.


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2067 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
Recently, Boeing made enhancements to the 777-300ER that improve the airplane's overall fuel efficiency by 1.4 percent.

Now if they can just work on reliability...I know EK are not happy with the breakdown rates on their new 773ER fleet.


User currently offlineQutaiba From Kuwait, joined Dec 2005, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2053 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 21):
The issue here is not range, but economics. And specially nowadays with a very high oil price.

yes that is what i meant, i.e. fuel consupmtion over a flight duration or distance. Understandably, the high fuel prices put pressure on airlines flight ops planning and engineering nowadays.



When the tide comes in, all ships will rise
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 2034 times:

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 20):
The issue here is not range, but economics. And specially nowadays with a very high oil price.

Why are you trying to turn a good thing (Boeing delivering better performance than expected) into something bad? It's simple...Boeing delivered a product. That product performed better than billed. Then they came out with an enhancement that improves performance further. The customers would not expect that enhancement for free. It's like you bought a computer, and then someone else bought one months later, and you started bitching because his computer was newer and contained a faster processor, and you had to go back to the computer dealer to get a processor upgrade.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineAvFan4ever From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 19):
It's simple...Boeing delivered a product. That product performed better than billed. Then they came out with an enhancement that improves performance further. The customers would not expect that enhancement for free.

Exactly. Airlines got what they were promised and got what they paid for. Developing improvements to existing products does not render previous versions "defective". If Boeing had missed its original performance targets and the retrofits were necessary to get the aircraft closer to original guarantees, it would be different. In practice, a "free" upgrade may end up being part of a deal to purchase other products or services, or exercise options, etc.


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