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B777 Stranded In Siberia Rescued By IL86 ...  
User currently offlineZeus419 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 136 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 22808 times:

Quote from Tass news agency:-

http://itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=2733067&PageNum=0


Il-86 of Aeroflot Airlines plane carries passengers of Air France defunct Boeing

18.12.2005, 16.40

IRKUTSK, December 18 (Itar-Tass) -- An Il-86 of Aeroflot Airlines carrying passengers of the Air France defunct Boeing 777 departed from Irkutsk to Moscow’s Sheremetyevo airport at 7:00 p.m. local time (2:00 p.m. Moscow time), a source in the Irkutsk airport told Itar-Tass.

Boeing 777 en route from Seoul to Paris made an emergency landing in Siberia on Saturday because of an engine malfunction, and 246 passengers had to spend the night in Irkutsk. The landing was successful, and the border and customs formalities were brief. The passengers and crewmembers were accommodated at local hotels and given food.

The Boeing 777 passengers will take an Air France plane from Sheremetyevo to Paris.

A cargo plane carrying repairmen and a new engine will come to Irkutsk on Monday to repair the Boeing 777.

101 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirbusBoeing From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 22509 times:

What if it were somewhere over the Pacific or the Atlantic.....
Thats why I prefer a 747 or a 340...a 25% disability is better than a 50% disability.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2000 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 22476 times:

RE: AF Emergency Landing IKT (by EHHO Dec 17 2005 in Civil Aviation)#ID2498400

User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 22445 times:

I was just thinking about this, but wouldn't it have been smart of aeroflot to showcase one of it's new products for these passengers. I understand that this flight was unexpected, but I would have thought, that this would have been great way to show how their image is changing. Why couldn't they have used an Il-96 with the new paint scheme. I don't know if the IL-86's are painted with the new scheme. By flying the premium airfrance passengers on one of thier newer aircraft, wouldn't this be a great to show how much they have improved? I don't know, it just seems like the perfect oportunity to show and compare your product, especially when compared to the world-recognized one of AF's? I've been in those IL-86's, and I know that they may scare the average westerner/first worlder, because the seats fold foward when not in use. I'm sure that that was probably one of the first times those passengers have flown on a russian jetliner.


LH 442
User currently offlineDevil505x From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 22424 times:

Quoting Zeus419 (Thread starter):
because of an engine malfunction

Has there been a few of these with the 777 lately?

Quoting AirbusBoeing (Reply 1):
Thats why I prefer a 747 or a 340

Me too! And I also feel even three engines are better than two.


User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4518 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 22338 times:

Quoting AirbusBoeing (Reply 1):
Thats why I prefer a 747 or a 340...a 25% disability is better than a 50% disability.

Yeah but wouldn't you prefer an X% chance of an engine going out versus a Y% chance of an engnie going out, where Y>X?



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 22325 times:

Quoting Zeus419 (Thread starter):
Boeing 777 en route from Seoul to Paris made an emergency landing in Siberia on Saturday because of an engine malfunction, and 246 passengers had to spend the night in Irkutsk.

So it isn't just a square in Risk after all...  Wink

Quoting AirbusBoeing (Reply 1):
What if it were somewhere over the Pacific or the Atlantic.....

Then it would have diverted in full compliance with ETOPS procedure.

Quoting Devil505x (Reply 4):
Has there been a few of these with the 777 lately?

No more so than any other type. Twinjets statistically arrive at their intended destination more often than quads.


User currently offlineAviastar From Belarus, joined Nov 2000, 280 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 22264 times:

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 3):
I was just thinking about this, but wouldn't it have been smart of aeroflot to showcase one of it's new products for these passengers. I understand that this flight was unexpected, but I would have thought, that this would have been great way to show how their image is changing. Why couldn't they have used an Il-96 with the new paint scheme.

There were 246 on board the AF 777, and the only SU plane which can transport 246 people is the Il-86. Aeroflot Il-96-300 can carry around 235 people I believe.
No Il-86 were painted with the new livery yet, unfortunately.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 22155 times:

the only thing this poster/thread starter is trying to do is start a flame war....his previous thread was deleted .....


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBirdbrainz From United States of America, joined May 2005, 480 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 22129 times:

Quoting AirbusBoeing (Reply 1):
What if it were somewhere over the Pacific or the Atlantic.....

It would have to diverted to its ETOPS alternate. Nowhere in the story did it say how far away Irkutsk was whe the indicent occured, or if there was any question about making it to a suitible alternate.

For instance, there was no quote from the crew (or anyone else) like, "we sure were lucky that Irkutsk was right underneath us because this plane was going down fast. If we were over the ocean, we would surely have gone swimming."

Also, it doesn't say why they shut the engine down. Most of the time, it's something like an accessory or low oil level/pressure. It is very prudunt in these cases to shut the engine down, but not strictly necessary. Had they needed two engines to avoid a crash, they probably would have had them.

With regards to in-flight shutdown rates, the last numbers I'd seen (which are about 10 yr old) were 0.053/1000 hr for a PW4000, and 0.008/1000 hr for a CFM56. I'm confident the GE90 is in the same league. Not too shabby if you ask me...



A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
User currently offlineAIRCANL1011 From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 262 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 22098 times:

Quoting AirbusBoeing (Reply 1):
What if it were somewhere over the Pacific or the Atlantic.....
Thats why I prefer a 747 or a 340...a 25% disability is better than a 50% disability.

Ignorance is Bliss



CYMRU AM BYTH / WALES FOREVER
User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2129 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 22080 times:

Even 4 engined aircraft with one engine failure have to divert, ask BA. The thread is rather funny, I guess all the 777 operators will be rushing to replace them with IL86's now. Big grin

User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 21927 times:

It is my understanding that all of the Aeroflot IL-86's are in charter configuration; some having a small business class and some having none. I have been on several varieties and they were in all different configs, but all looked and felt well maintained. Not exactly a 777 however.

User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 21840 times:

Quoting AirbusBoeing (Reply 1):
Thats why I prefer a 747 or a 340...a 25% disability is better than a 50% disability.

Except ETOPS planes are much less likely to have an engine disabled.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 21786 times:

Quoting Zeus419 (Thread starter):
passengers of the Air France defunct Boeing 777 departed from Irkutsk to Moscow�s Sheremetyevo airport

Funny choice of words: "defunct".

Defunct means having ceased to exist. The flight was defunct, but not the 777.


User currently offlineAMSSFO From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 21717 times:

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 9):
Nowhere in the story did it say how far away Irkutsk was whe the indicent occured,

1000 km north of IKT acc to Itar Tass
http://news.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=:...32489%26PageNum%3D0&cid=1103031446
"Boeing-777 was on its way from Seoul to Paris when one of its engines failed. The accident occurred over the Russian territory approximately 1,000 km to the north of Irkutsk. Irkutsk is the only international airport in the area which has technical parameters to accept planes like Boeings with so many passengers onboard. "
also:
"According to clarified reports, 246 Air France passengers spent the night in the two best hotels in Irkutsk - Baikal-Hotel and Angara." Isn't that nice  Wink?


User currently offlineDon81603 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 1185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 21585 times:

I would think that if push came to shove, the 777 would have been able to continue on a single engine, would it not? Granted ETOPS says they'd have to divert, but for the sake of argument, lets toss ETOPS out the window. Would the single remaining engine have enough power to have continued? Wouldn't it be "common sense" to design extra performance into the engines in the event that the worst case scenario came along?


Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
User currently offlineKLM685 From Mexico, joined May 2005, 1577 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 21192 times:

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 5):
Yeah but wouldn't you prefer an X% chance of an engine going out versus a Y% chance of an engnie going out, where Y>X?

Did you studied economics?  Wink



KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
User currently offlineNetdhaka From Bangladesh, joined Feb 2004, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20808 times:

I think if it was a 4 engine plane, they could have continued to their destination. Few months back I heard BA 747 flying from LAX to LHR with one engine down. This happened on more than one occasion (not on the same route may be).

User currently offlineTranstar From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20709 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I believe that the Il-96-300 fleet has been grounded due to serious technical problems discovered with President Putin's private aircraft.

At least that was the case a few weeks ago.

Any comments?


User currently offlinePanAm747LHR From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 235 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20664 times:

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 3):
I was just thinking about this, but wouldn't it have been smart of aeroflot to showcase one of it's new products for these passengers. I understand that this flight was unexpected, but I would have thought, that this would have been great way to show how their image is changing. Why couldn't they have used an Il-96 with the new paint scheme. I don't know if the IL-86's are painted with the new scheme. By flying the premium airfrance passengers on one of thier newer aircraft, wouldn't this be a great to show how much they have improved?

The whole point of this post is that it was an emergency. The object here would have been to get these passengers on their way as soon as possible, not turn it into a publicity event for SU. I'm sure that if SU had a better aircraft readily available they would have used it, however the IL-86 was a) available and b) capable of carrying out the task necessary, so that's what they used. Furthermore, while the IL-96 may well be painted in the new scheme, the product onboard doesn't quite compare to the AF 777 product, so there wouldn't have been much to show-off to the stranded AF passengers. Having just been delayed for more than 12 hours, the passengers wouldn't have been in a very receptive mood even if this were the case - they were all just interested in getting on their way and completing their journey.

I'm glad to hear that everyone was ok and that there were no injuries or casualties.

Happy Holidays everyone!

Nick


User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 607 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20648 times:

Seems most support this idea...

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
No more so than any other type. Twinjets statistically arrive at their intended destination more often than quads.



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 13):
Except ETOPS planes are much less likely to have an engine disabled.

Now, do you guys have a statistic to support your view? It seems you're just saying what you think, and not what theoretically can happen... how can twins (2 engines) are less likely to have their engines disabled than a quad (4 engines)? In paper, there is 50% vs 25%, unless the quads' engines are crap and the twins are "unbreakable".... really, all of those who support the idea that a twin is less likely to brake down than a quad is absurd... that "statistics" show otherwise, you have to show me to believe it, and even if such statistic is available (yet to see it), you need to consider the average age of most widebody twins against the average age of the widebody quads, since most twin widebodies are a LOT newer than most quads (B747s & A340s)... and also, the engines themselves on most widebody twins are newer, thus better and more technologically advanced than each engine of the older quads... neverhtheless, for two new airplanes, a quad and a twin, the chances of the quad holding its power is a lot greater than on a twin.... and that's the statistic that counts....



B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20613 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 14):
Funny choice of words: "defunct".

Defunct means having ceased to exist. The flight was defunct, but not the 777.

this thread starter was bashing the 777/Twin concept, that is why his previous thread was deleted...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineGoCOgo From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20292 times:

Quoting Netdhaka (Reply 18):
I think if it was a 4 engine plane, they could have continued to their destination. Few months back I heard BA 747 flying from LAX to LHR with one engine down.

Too bad it didn't make LHR. Had to divert anyway (to MAN, I think), although they tried to make it. Most of the time, a 4-engine jet that loses an engine diverts also. The BA jet, it would seem, only tried to make it due to that EU flight delay law. 4 engines is just more that can go wrong.



"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20269 times:

The IL-96 was un-grounded awhile ago. Do a search....

Anyway, do all the IL-96's in SU's fleet now have beds installed in business/first?


25 Post contains links TinkerBelle : Here's a blog about that story; http://groups.google.com/group/borla...d115?sa=X&oi=groupsr&start=0&num=3
26 TinkerBelle : To add to the above note, the same aircraft flew SIN-LHR (I think it was) about 4 days later after this happened. I wonder if BA ever figured out wha
27 Post contains images LCH : Wow, reading that press release took me back some 20 years. Sounds like perfect propaganda for the Soviet aviation industry; 246 westeners "rescued" b
28 Atnight : I don't know why you mentioned that twice.... Do you have a personal issue with Zeus419? Why do you refer to him as the "thread starter"? And why do
29 GARPD : Whats absurd my dear fellow forumite is your ignorance. It is fact that ETOPS aicraft such as the 777 must under go stringent evaluation and must be
30 Gigneil : Its more simple than you think. If you have twice as many of something, the liklihood of one of those things failing is twice as high. Its really ver
31 Pictues : No they don't that incident only became news because they couldnt reach Heathrow. I've seen a CX A340-600 that had an owl go through the engine and i
32 Stratofortress : AtNight Assuming that a twin and a quad have identical engines, and that either aircraft must divert if only ONE of its engines goes out, then quad is
33 Birdbrainz : While we're beating this one up, here's another angle on the two- versus four-engine debate: In general, the crew of a four-engine aircraft is more li
34 Widebodyphotog : By virtue of having fewer engines there is a lower likelihood of a single engine failure. Having more engines on an airframe means more total engine
35 Post contains images Superfly : That is a cool story. Going from a 777 to an IL-86.
36 Fyano773 : Atnight, As a.netters have stated: You have in the quad, 4 possible points of failure versus 2 in the twin... BTW, welcome to the forum. Fyano
37 Post contains images Superfly : Screw the twins! You can't get awesome shots like this in a 777 or A330.
38 Atnight : Thank you much for your great "enlightment" oh great GARPD!!! seriously, your shouldn't call my post stupid, especially because I did ask for some pr
39 StuckInCA : You might find yourself better served by ASKING for proof rather than DEMANDING it. Also, you might be well served to search for one of the nearly in
40 AirbusBoeing : agreed.....but in a twin: the 2 points of failure would be catastrophic as compared to 2 points of failure in a quad. with one engine turned off, the
41 Superfly : Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the sole purpose of twins cost and only cost? Yes maintaining a 4 engine will cost more and use more fuel but in te
42 AMSSFO : I agree completely! Reread your first post, Atnight, and you probably will notice that the tone of your post (and the others in this thread as well)
43 Ikramerica : okay, you are wrong. twin engines are also more reliable, which is why they are preferred. The 777 for example has double the dispatch reliability of
44 BoomBoom : Ya, but you get awesome shots of those BIG honkin 777 engines.
45 Amazonphil : THe 777 is 180 minute rated so of coarse it could have probably gone anywhere the captain would have chose to go and land....not a prob for the 777,
46 Mham001 : True, but the twin is overpowered to start with to make up the difference. Thats why the A346 can have hair dryers in its wings.
47 VV701 : Although most a-netters would be interested in the paint scheme of an aircraft they were boarding remember that: The passengers almost certainly were
48 Gearup : There was nothing stupid about his post at all. GARPD why do you have to be so confrontational? If someone thinks the claims for ETOPS are absurd, so
49 TinkerBelle : Chill out dude..... All GARPD did was 'enlighten' you like you asked to be so posting a 300-word paragraph whining and whining is a little out of wha
50 Dan2002 : *cough* n00b *cough*
51 HZ747300 : Absolutely. It could actually fly at 435mph with one engine out. Good to see you're posting again Sir Branson.
52 UAL747DEN : If you were than so what? The 777 could complete the entire trip on one engine if the Captain didn't care to fly with AF anymore! You must not know t
53 Cxsjr : All this "4 is better than 2" stuff is crap! Fact: the majority of commercial aircraft on this planet have 2 engines, not one, not three (sadly!), not
54 Post contains images Glideslope : The entire discussion in here is irrelevant. We all know the percentages on engine outs for twins versus quads, don't we Operators want twins due to t
55 Jush : how cool is that. I mean of course you are in shock because of the emergency but then get a free flight on an old russian airliner. DAMN i wanna get a
56 FrancoBlanco : On a side note: Just like Aspen, INN is also surrounded by high mountains. Many (smaller) airlines choose to fly BAe 146s there but nowadays we get mo
57 Amy : Ever heard of the ERJ? Not the stupid new ones but the original AE-3007 powered ones. They could make it and embarass the BAe on the climb out. Unfor
58 Beechnut : and A quad with a single engine failure may NOT be able to continue onto destination. It really depends on a number of factors. First of all, with th
59 Glareskin : I really like your way of straight forward discussion. But I do have a question left. Is 2 x Y > X? Because that would be the better question. I thin
60 Post contains images Columba : Yeah, Yeah this stupid Iljushin vs. Boeing threads.......
61 Post contains images Columba : According to that logic the most reliable planes must be single engined planes then............. I don´t know how many of you would feel being in th
62 SCEagle : Actually, it'd be gliders... never an engine failure!
63 Maxim : By the way the ilyushin 86 is one of the most reliable a/c ,in 25 years of service it had only one crash,even that most IL 86 are flying with CIS comp
64 Col : Pictues, Couldn't reach destination, so they diverted doing precisely the same thing as this AF 777. Glad to hear that the 346 made it, I have a pers
65 Bennett123 : Birdbrainz And if the twin loses an engine, and another on approach... Well said SCEagle. I was just about to say that a single has less chance of an
66 BHXDTW : Wow... After reading alllllll those posts regarding percentages, engine power, wharp speed filangees blah blah blah, I feel like Ive been in a spin dr
67 EHHO : Actually, the last few days were very nice.. anything ranging from -5 C to +1 C at the moment of this writing. Tomorrow however, deep cold will set i
68 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : If it were over the pacific or Atlantic, the same situation would occur they would land at the nearest airport. In order for the plane to land safely
69 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : To answer your question , no. In fact the number is begining to decrease , with the number of carriers flying more often and less incidents ocuuring
70 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : I agree totally....
71 Lemmy : Sometimes. I read an article a while back about a guy who ferries small planes between Australia and the US. He said that, due to the large ferry tan
72 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : If you toss ETOPS out the window then you will not have a a/c or flight. This route is flown on a ETOPS certified a/c for a reason. If a single engin
73 Superfly : Ikramerica: OK, thanks for the update. UAL747DEN: I was refering to twin regional jets. I am well aware that 757s fly in to Aspen but those aren't com
74 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : That doesn't make much sense if you are refering to A and B. If you take the collective amount of quad engine a/c by both manufacturers, the balance
75 DarthRandall : This is hilarious. What's gets people's hackles up more than Airbus vs. Boeing? Twins vs. Quads! And the best thing about it--all of the invective and
76 757drvr : I will try to help clear up a few things. First....ETOPS. By definition, Extended Twin-engine OPerations is flights conducted beyond 60 minutes from a
77 Post contains images Airbusboeing : One simple view of mine stated above....and look what a long thread it turned into. My dear friends, I know about ETOPS and higher maintenance and al
78 Lemurs : All reasonable enough. However, you should not be happy with that state of affairs rattling around inside your head. I understand irrational fear, bu
79 Post contains links and images YULWinterSkies : Is the 777 pictured on the Itar-tass web page a 773ER? Seems to be a typical ground-to-air picture of a landing 773ER like we start seeing by hundreds
80 Post contains images Superfly : Me too!
81 AMSSFO : Just wondering, what would you advise him to say to his fellow passengers when he called you from an ETOPS 777 that just suffered an engine failure o
82 Post contains images Lemurs : Of course that doesn't help. You're addressing something that has already happened. At that point, I'd review with them the service history of IFSD e
83 Post contains images Atnight : I tell you, I should never enter this posts trying to find helpful or patient people... by writing on this thread I got called stupid, inmature, needi
84 Don81603 : From what I understand, ETOPS is for passenger protection. Being able to perform the task is fine, but to do so under powered would be, IMHO, fool ha
85 Bongo : Just a question slightly off topic: What happen if some of the passenger nationalities needs visas for entering Russia? Do the authorities inmeditely
86 MOW : Yes, they will issue some sort of landing permission as it happened in the recent AF case. Sometimes it doesn't come for free (as it was in JL case e
87 Aussie_ : It sounds a bit perverse, i know, but from an aviation enthusiast's point of view, how great would it be? Inflight engine shutdown, diversion to an ex
88 GARPD : Woah woah, wait a minute there bud. You came on here, demanding reasons why some of the most respected posters on these fora think that twins are saf
89 Post contains images Superfly : DITTO!
90 Post contains links and images Keesje : I. I know an airline that keeps all their engines up to a ETOPS standard as a way to standardize maintenance pograms. Those engines (GE CF6-80C2) are
91 Post contains images BoomBoom : Funny how that hasn't kept the 777 from outselling the A340 10:1 this year.
92 Stratofortress : GARPD: Your stock is rising in my book. Atnight: You were certainly rude with your replies and deserve the bashing that you are receiving. Folks were
93 Robsawatsky : You can not mix in one thread: 1. LOGIC and SCIENCE behind ETOPS 2. FEELINGS about being inflight ETOPS with one engine out and most certainly cannot
94 Bearcuban12 : I assume that the cargo plane is a AN-124? Where is it flying the engine in from?
95 Post contains images GARPD : I hope thats a good thing
96 Post contains images Jwenting : Would have been nice, but I guess they didn't have one in the area... Another very good reason Better treatment than I got when I was on an aircraft
97 Post contains images RIX : - it's actually "all-economy", the standard domestic configuration during Soviet era (have no idea if this has changed). Not sure that all of them ar
98 Legacytravel : And he had to land and refuel too. I forget if it was Iceland or Greenland or Nova Scotia. Mark in MKE
99 TGV : If I remember correctly it was because it was not granted the flight level the pilots requested, hence using more fuel than planned. The pilots had c
100 AMSSFO : Forgot it? You apparently suffer from an extremely short memory.... Quotes from this thread only: " target=_blank>http://groups.google.com/group/borl
101 Post contains images SK909 : You are sooo right!! Statistics is a matter of mathematics. Its a matter of interpretation. Statistics can be fitted to make your product look good.
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