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WSJ: SQ Likely To Tap Boeing For New Order-Sources  
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 18268 times:

Fair use excerpt:

SINGAPORE -- Boeing Co. (BA) looks set to beat arch-rival Airbus (ABI.YY) in a contest valued at upwards of US$10 billionto supply Singapore Airlines Ltd. (S55.SG) with new long-range passenger planes, according to people familiar with the airline's plans.

SIA, the world's second-biggest airline by market capitalization, is mulling a firm order for 66 to 80 Boeing aircraft, with an option for up to another 30, these people said.

"The indication is an order made up mostly of the 777-200LRs and a significant number of the 787 Dreamliners. A few, 5 or 6, of the 747-Advance freighters may also be part of the order," one of the sources said.

At this point, SIA isn't considering including any Airbus planes in the order, he and two other people said.

[...]

"The announcement (from SIA) could be made anytime between now and the lunar new year (on Jan. 29) and then formalized during the (Asian Aerospace) air show in February," another source said.

[...goes on for a while longer ...]


[Edited 2005-12-23 05:23:18]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
181 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9668 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 18225 times:
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PHOTO SCREENER

Great news, if it pans out!

User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1735 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 18187 times:

Grat news, for Boeing, that is, but not a big surprise, except for the quantity. If it counts for this year, will Boeing reach 1000 orders?

(what is Airbus' score now, by the way?)


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 18110 times:

There is nil chance that the SQ order will be firmly booked this year. It will be a good start to Boeing's 2006 sales.

There is a slim chance that Boeing could reach 1000 this year even without SQ.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 18068 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

This will be superb news for Boeing, and will make an excellent start to the 2006 order books. Since the source says its obvious Airbus has now lost this order (but we all know this could change) then Airbus will be getting very desperate for A350 orders and we could see a good price drop for other airlines to order some A350s.

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4217 posts, RR: 89
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 18068 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

According to Dow Jones:

14:32 23Dec2005 OBI-DJ Singapore Air Likely To Tap Boeing For New Order-SourcesSI>

By Abdul Hadhi Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

SINGAPORE (Dow Jones)--Boeing Co. (BA) looks set to beat arch-rival Airbus (ABI.YY) in a contest valued at upwards of US$10 billionto supply Singapore Airlines Ltd. (S55.SG) with new long-range passenger planes, according to people familiar with the airline's plans.
SIA, the world's second-biggest airline by market capitalization, is mulling a firm order for 66 to 80 Boeing aircraft, with an option for up to another 30, these people said. "The indication is an order made up mostly of the 777 200LRs and a significant number of the 787 Dreamliners. A few, 5 or 6, of the 747-Advance freighters may also be part of the order," one of the sources said.

At this point, SIA isn't considering including any Airbus planes in the order, he and two other people said.

Other notes include total firm orders for 66 to 80 airplanes plus 30 options with majority to be 772LR.

Source: Dow Jones

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 18005 times:
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That would be a great kick for the 777-200LR. It's pretty awesome to see it flying around the Puget Sound area.

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 18002 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 5):
According to Dow Jones:

That's pretty much what I posted. Dow Jones == WSJ.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4217 posts, RR: 89
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17934 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting N328KF (Reply 7):
That's pretty much what I posted. Dow Jones == WSJ

Fine will suggest deletion if you like, I went to post, saw your thread in the filter, cancelled mine at just thre this into your thread so as not to breach the protocol of a double thread.

Cheers, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2830 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17914 times:

Can Boeing pull off the Hat Trick? Airbus made a lot of sound about being able to pull one of the QF, SQ or CX orders, only to have CX (which according to analysts was the easiest order for them to pick up) slip away and loose QF in a close close battle.

Airbus made a lot of hype around the A345 at SQ for all time distance record. If Boeing picks up this order, it sure seems to be the end of real competition between the A340 family and the 777.

60-80 Firm is a incredibly huge order... I think Airbus will send eveything including Leahy's bonus to seal this deal.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17846 times:

SQ have a reputation for being a tough and patient negotiator. Regardless of who wins, SQ will get a good deal.

The interesting thing about these reports is the claim that a majority of the orders will be for the B777-200LR. A majority of 66 to 80 planes is 34 to 41 or more. That seems like a very large order for the B777-200LR. Clearly, not all of those would be used for ULH -- even with SFO, ORD, EWR, JFK, and 2x LAX daily nonstops, 14 aircraft would suffice. SIN-GRU nonstop? I would start SIN-JNB-GRU first. SIN-EZE? Due to ETOPs routing issues, this one makes even more sense as SIN-JNB-EZE.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17818 times:

Sounds interesting...but after the whole QF thing...I'll believe it after I see it!

that being said...I certainly do hope Boeing wins this and SQ order some -200LR's..as its the better plane than their current A345 (yes, I'm biased...)

[Edited 2005-12-23 07:02:44]


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17682 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
I certainly do hope Boeing wins this and SQ order some -200LR's..as its the better plane than their current A345 (yes, I'm biased...)

One needn't be biased to recognize that the B777-200LR is a better airplane than the A340-500. However, Airbus deserves credit (and earned sales) for getting to market years earlier.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17658 times:

This is good news for Boeing, if it's true.  Smile

Boeing has been "down and out" for a few years compared to Airbus, so maybe the next few years will see a Boeing resurgence.

Airbus has done very well for a company with its rather short history. It should not feel second-best at all, since Boeing has always been a strong contender.

Congrats to Boeing, if the news is correct.


User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2412 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17643 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
One needn't be biased to recognize that the B777-200LR is a better airplane than the A340-500. However, Airbus deserves credit (and earned sales) for getting to market years earlier.

Indeed. Now, the market and aircraft performance proves the 777 a better aircraft than A340.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17608 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 14):
Now, the market and aircraft performance proves the 777 a better aircraft than A340.

For all the criticism of Boeing in the last few years, and all the controversy about its past leadership, it seems like Boeing has made all the right choices. The 777 is a very capable aircraft, and popular, too. And, in addition, I think that Airbus has been playing a game of "catch-up" with Boeing lately, with regard to the A350 and so forth.

I just hope that Boeing builds on this momentum and follows through with the 747-8, which it's announced it will build, and the new 787 variants.

Basically, Boeing wants to take commercial airliners to the next technological level. Airbus did it -- sort of -- with the sidestick and fly-by-wire thing, but Boeing has a different approach, obviously. Boeing wants to incorporate the best of the fly-by-wire with human factors, new composite tech, new assembly techniques, new economics, and improved passenger comfort. Now, who can argue with that?

A real race to the top between two great competitors -- I'm getting out the popcorn!  

[Edited 2005-12-23 07:41:14]

[Edited 2005-12-23 07:41:42]

[Edited 2005-12-23 07:42:30]

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17583 times:

Just on the subject of numbers of (firm) orders, Boeing is agonisingly close to an all-time record.

Their orders site now shows 870 orders in 2005 so far. The record is 877 in 1988, which presumably included orders gained by MD as well?

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDarthRandall From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 302 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17546 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):
then Airbus will be getting very desperate for A350 orders and we could see a good price drop for other airlines to order some A350s.

I wouldn't count on any panicked price-slashing on the A350 anytime in the near future. The great preponderance of orders for the 787 over the 350 are in part due to their respective release dates. The numbers on paper (these are still paper airplanes after all) suggest that the two aircraft will tend to be at least close in terms of performance in several areas. There will be continued demand for aircraft of these sizes for the forseeable future, and with the 787's order book starting to look more and more like a phone book we should expect that those in demand will be tempted to look elsewhere for their supply. Also, the popularity of the 787 may even help the A350. With delivery slots for the near future in such short supply, Boeing will not be quite as eager to get into any price-cutting competitions with Airbus. Thus, Airbus needn't go as low with the A350 as they would have been willing to.

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 6):
That would be a great kick for the 777-200LR. It's pretty awesome to see it flying around the Puget Sound area.

I know! Wasn't it awesome to see it all done up in Boeing colors parked at Boeing Field and occasionally flying around? I don't care what anyone says about twins all looking alike; that is a neat aircraft to spot.



Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17508 times:

Quoting DarthRandall (Reply 17):
and with the 787's order book starting to look more and more like a phone book we should expect that those in demand will be tempted to look elsewhere for their supply.


Seeing how Boeings latest 787 customer (CR Airways) was able to get their hands on delivery slots in 2008, I doubt any of the current A350 customers went for the A350 due to lack of delivery slots at Boeing. IIRC TAM does not want them before the end of 2012. However, I could imagine that some 787 customers went Boeing due to the earlier availabilty of delivery slots.



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User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2972 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17461 times:

If this order goes through it will show Boeing's dominance of the Asia-Pacific long-haul aircraft market. While the single-aisle market from India to Japan and down to Australia is more or less evenly divided between the 737NG and the A320, the 777 is the weapon of choice for Asian carriers, overwhelmingly so over the A340. While I am nopt bashing Airbus here, they really need to improve their marketing strategy for long-haul carriers in the A-Pac, because this is the region that will provide the bulk of new plane orders in the future. Heck, it provides the bulk of plane orders right now.


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17455 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 18):
Seeing how Boeings latest 787 customer (CR Airways) was able to get their hands on delivery slots in 2008, I doubt any of the current A350 customers went for the A350 due to lack of delivery slots at Boeing. IIRC TAM does not want them before the end of 2012. However, I could imagine that some 787 customers went Boeing due to the earlier availabilty of delivery slots.

Very amusing spin, Manni.

Do you really, honestly believe what you wrote?

What evidence can you provide for us that proves any of what you're saying?


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17440 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 20):
Very amusing spin, Manni.


Reread, no spinning at all.
If, like you suggested, airlines buy the A350, due to lack of delivery slots at Boeing. How come that 166 commitments have been placed for delivery atleast 2 years after CR Airways is to recieve their 787s?

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 20):
What evidence can you provide for us that proves any of what you're saying?

Just did.



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User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9210 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17397 times:

I suppose SQ might order some B 747-8 as well.

User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2972 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17218 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 22):
I suppose SQ might order some B 747-8 as well.

Given the important role that the Cargo business plays for SQ I guess they'll try out 747-8F before they even select the passenger model.



A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17125 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
SQ have a reputation for being a tough and patient negotiator. Regardless of who wins, SQ will get a good deal.

This is true, which makes me wonder why the WSJ source claimed Airbus wasn't running for the business anymore.


25 Zvezda : More likely B747-8F than B747-8I but either or both is possible. One possible reason would be that SQ are convinced that they've already got the best
26 PanAm_DC10 : Hi Manni, to clarify for you. I believe, in this case, that HNA Group, owner of Hainan Airlines, are to take ownership of 70% of the Company which ow
27 Leelaw : Isn't the A380 Airbus's answer to transporting the nascent hordes of passengers which the rapidly expanding economies of China and India are expected
28 Manni : Thanks PanAm_DC10. Good to see, that we can always rely on you for a decent explanation. However my point remains valid. QF has been able to get their
29 Leelaw : Is it "official" that Boeing and its subcontractors will have the capacity/capability to deliver 9+ units per month as early as 2008-2010?
30 KC135TopBoom : If this happens as reported by the WSJ, great news for Boeing. However, the WSJ has missed before, so I'll hold for a while to see what Boeing, Airbus
31 PanAm_DC10 : Thank you Manni, as you noted, I do not question your point. I was clarifying something for you. If you do not mind, I'd like to do so again, soley i
32 Aither : ??? - The A320 is now by far the preferred single aisle aircraft among the new Asian Low costs. - The A330 is a perfect choice for medium/long range
33 Zvezda : Have a look at the flight schedule from Beijing to Shanghai and you'll find many single-aisle aircraft. That is the busiest route in China. No one is
34 Leelaw : I'm sure you're right. However, wasn't Cricket specifically talking about the "...need to improve their marketing strategy for long-haul carriers in
35 Post contains images PanAm_DC10 : Hi Zvezda again, in the spirit of clarification, please read my post again. If you had quoted my entire text sir you would see the following; My poin
36 Aither : 1- These are not all positioning flights 2- I don't know any aircraft called the "Whalejet" 3- They could use profitably the A380 right now today if
37 Glideslope : They already are. It's clear that other factors than airframe acquisition cost are in play in a way that is different from past years. IMO, operators
38 Post contains images TinkerBelle : I thought this already happened! Anyways, great news for Boeing but as we all know, QF's order was in teh bag until the cunning Leahy flew down under
39 Revelation : It'd be nice to see an order for a few dozen LRs just to shut up the a.nuts who keep talking trash about the LR.
40 TinkerBelle : I think as much as I like the LR's, the A345 get's more bashing on a.net than the LR. I was bummed when QF didn't order the 772LR for the SYD-LHR run
41 Windshear : WAUW that would be a knock-out order! Boaz...
42 RedFlyer : I find it interesting that there's no talk of any passenger 748's. I thought SQ was one of the airlines that participated in its design features. Also
43 Post contains images UAL777UK : No surprises here, I feel SQ were always going to go the Boeing route. Have we seen a top tier airline order the 350 yet.......me thinks not........qu
44 Zvezda : SQ would seem to have the following options (ordered by my expectation of decreasing likelihood): - order some B747-8Is, - order more B777-300ERs, -
45 PlaneDane : Where and when did I suggest that?! Please show me. I said no such thing because I really don't know and I am not about to make a claim that I can't
46 Manni : Planedane, you are right, it was another poster in reply 17 that suggested this. Sorry about the confusion.
47 PHXinterrupted : Ever been to EZE? Know much about Argentina? I don't see a market for SIN. 9/11 had a little something to do with the delayed entry of the 777LR, don
48 Post contains images Boeing Nut : OK, somebody needs to get goin' on the fantasy liveries!!!! SQ's 787's, 777LR's and 747-8 if you please!
49 Post contains images Zvezda : Several times. I have a long-time friend in Cordoba. I was wearing a coat today that I bought in Argentina about 10 years ago. I'm quite proud to be
50 QantasHeavy : CX, QF and SQ also all seem to be sending a message to the market... not too happy with Airbus (be it delays with the 380 or being less than impressed
51 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I figured I would throw in my disclaimer before I get yah...I agree...I think it might have been for the total order or some kind of misprint....that
52 RayChuang : I think while SQ will use the 787-8/9 for most of its regional routes, they are right now watching with interest how well the A380-800 does in terms o
53 SunriseValley : For an EIS of 2009-2010 I don't see a need for an airline to rush in and buy unless the launch price is very attractive. I concur with many on this l
54 Kaitak744 : SQ had stated that they will replace their 747-400s with 777-300ERs and A380s, which seems, in my opinion, adequate enough. Now that the 777-200LR or
55 QantasHeavy : I bet SAA is a contender for SQ's 345s... they would work well in their fleet. I think LAN Chile, Air Tahiti Nui or Air Mauritius could be interested
56 Zvezda : There is no doubt about the WhaleJet's ability to fly 8000nm with full fuel at MTOW. The problem is that only leaves 33,000 kg for payload, which is
57 MauriceB : I expect SQ will not be in a hurry to retire their A340-500s. More likely, SQ will put B777-200LRs on LAX and EWR and then use the A340-500s to open
58 DfwRevolution : B737 - 312 B747 - 49 B757 - 148 B767 - 83 1988 Boeing Total - 592 The 1988 sales total does, indeed, include the (239) MD-80, (44) MD-11, and (2) DC-
59 Post contains links BoomBoom : Nothing "official", but here are some more details on this story: Boeing To Deliver 112 787s Through `09 (by BoomBoom Dec 23 2005 in Civil Aviation)
60 BoomBoom : I think you mean 787s.
61 Alitalia744 : The 787 wasn't for sale let alone a shadow of a dream in 1988. I think he's correct in meaning the 757.
62 Jacobin777 : I think that SQ ordering the 747-8I would be a BIG vote of confidence for the Boeing product line, but I'm not too sanguine about it......
63 PhilSquares : Please remember that was before Boeing had committed to the 747-8. Plus no matter what they say, they will always do what they feel will deliver the
64 Pieinthesky : SQ have the ability to pay considerable sums in cash for aircraft, which doesn't harm their negotiating position.
65 Texan : Marketwatch is saying SQ are interested in the 747-8, but that the order will be for a mix of 777s and 787s. Texan
66 B2707SST : Interesting -- is this due to their public falling-out over the A380 delays, or is SQ also unhappy with the A345s? --B2707SST
67 PhilSquares : To be honest, it's both. However, the 380 delay and unanswered performance questions have just about strained the relationship to the breaking point.
68 Glom : Well, it looks good for Boeing, but I'd hesitate to break out any champagne yet. The backlash would just be too great if Airbus makes a sizeable scoop
69 BoomBoom : Sorry, I wasn't reading carefully, I thought the list was for this year. I should have know where it said 767-83.
70 Aither : I'm not saying about recent orders but the A340 remains attractive despite one could believe when reading A.Net In the meantime the A330 backlog in t
71 Stitch : Yet SQ eschewed similar-sized 747 derivatives (like the 747-X) in the past, preferring to choose the larger A380. So I believe SQ is more interested
72 Post contains links Zvezda : Only A.net??? Hardly. In 30 seconds of searching... www.aviationplanning.com/predict2005.htm seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/159226_boeairbus04.html
73 Glom : A.net bashing? What's bashing about WhaleJet? Do you not consider the A380 important enough for a nickname?
74 Alitis : Try "Whalejet". 402 items on Google web search in reference to A380. -alitis
75 SunriseValley : a aviation journalist on another site is saying watch for the 787-8I.
76 Post contains images Jacobin777 : as I stated previously....when The WhaleJet gets enough sales to call it "successful"..then get back to me..as of right now..it hasn't been worth the
77 Post contains links Aither : Come on we are talking about articles from the regular press. You're only showing websites similar to A. net... or websites like www.fuckfrance.com ..
78 Zvezda :
79 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Well that's convincing: - Discount a major 777 order from a bluechip customer - Ignore reversal in customer's long standing preference for long-haul
80 Hamlet69 : Aither, you made this comment: And DfwRevolution asked: The truth is there are very few airlines out there anymore who have not either embraced ETOPS,
81 N328KF : So...then the articles from The Wall Street Journal, Aviation Week & Space Technology, Flight International, ATWOnline, and other reputable sources w
82 Post contains images Jacobin777 : yes..as well as the B777 versus A340 sales this year.....all fluff... also, given the massive 777 fleet that SQ and BA have, I doubt they would order
83 Atmx2000 : I think that is overly pessimistic for a 5 year time frame, though I guess it is possible. I think it is more likely you will see 40-50 frames.
84 Zvezda : Please try to be fair and look at it from Aither's perspective. The Wall Street Journal, Aviation Week & Space Technology, Flight International, ATWO
85 GARPD : Hi Can you elaborate on any common feelings toward the A340 at SQ? It seems to me that the A343 dissapointed SQ and now the A345 seems to be doing so
86 Sq212 : Consider that quite a few majors will be retiring their A340s and shifting to 773ER or 772LR. So we will see a lot of A340s in the second hand market
87 GARPD : Which are at a virtual stand still anyway!
88 SNATH : Never say never! Did anyone expect AC to go all Boeing on their long-haul fleet? I'm no insider and I don't know whether SQ are really disappointed w
89 Xkorpyoh : like add more seats on the 777LR to do more SIN-USA nonstop?!... more payload = more revenue
90 DarthRandall : Oh no, I didn't mean to suggest that. My point was that those early slots are filling up quickly, so that soon airlines will not be able to get a 787
91 PhilSquares : The prior derivatives of the 747 didn't offer the economics the 747-8 offers. The engine technology and the aerodynamic enhancements make the 747-8 a
92 Post contains links Halibut : http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/aerospace/archives/100909.asp Boeing may win 80-plane order from Singapore Airlines For much of 2005, Singapore Air
93 Post contains images NAV20 : Zvezda, that paragraph seems to have 'slipped through' without comment. But, if that is the outturn, those figures just about mean 'curtains' for the
94 Zvezda : But that wasn't quite the job that Airbus promised. Airbus promised 200 passengers and more cargo. SQ were only able to fit 181 seats and still fly E
95 N328KF : So moving along, if the Journal is correct, then the major near-term competitions remaining are: QF's ULH requirement (A345/772LR), presuming one or b
96 Sq212 : Quoting N328KF (Reply 95): near-term competitions remaining are Add LH (A350/787 and A380/748i). Airbus to lose, Boeing to gain. Quoting N328KF (Reply
97 Jacobin777 : yah..but right now, Boeing is offering a more economical package than years past..and AC's fleet, especially its large widebody fleet certainly isn't
98 BlueSky1976 : If Singapore would order 787, that would represent a major shift from their current philosophy of having a 300-seat airplane as a foundation of their
99 Zvezda : I wouldn't count the B787 out of this. If Boeing can extend the range, the operating economics will probably be much before for the B787 than for eit
100 Xkorpyoh : From that seatlepi.com article: "Expect the Singapore order to include a number of 777-200LRs. It's possible Boeing could help the airline sell those
101 PhilSquares : When SQ got rid of their 343 for the 777, Boeing took the aircraft and re-marketed them, much to the displeasure of Airbus. In fact, SQ had 340s they
102 N328KF : How did that occur? Did BCA pilots show up at Toulouse?
103 Clickhappy : Remember also that Airbus refused to provide service for these Boeing sold aircraft.
104 FriendlySkies : The resold SQ's old A343s as part of the original 777 order...I believe a few ended up with CX.
105 PhilSquares : The undelivered aircraft were delivered to the airline that purchased them through Boeing. That proved to be a hollow threat. Airbus did provide serv
106 Post contains images GARPD : It certainly does. Thank you Seasons greetings[Edited 2005-12-24 11:17:13]
107 Post contains images LifelinerOne : You know what's so funny. QF, EK and SQ were informed about the delays right from the beginning as all three companies have people in Toulouse workin
108 GARPD : Tosh. This time, the fault unequivocally lies with Airbus. Spin it how you like, but Airbus went public and blamed their customers (ie SQ etc) for de
109 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Ofcourse they were possible! But the subcontractors weren't ready to deliver them on time and Airbus isn't in the fitting-business and the airlines k
110 GARPD : The Airbus are at fault again for not making sure what they were offering their customers would not affect the weight of the aircraft. Airbus are pre
111 PhilSquares : I beg to differ. For the longest time Airbus didn't come clean with the problem. They, for the longest time assured all their customers they would me
112 AirFrnt : Yep. Boeing did it for SQ I believe and has offered to do it for AC.Airbus (as expected) objected greatly and then said they would not support the pl
113 Jacobin777 : I think to a certain extent, both Boeing and Airbus are in the "back pocket" of the their respective governments....both are "helped" by their govern
114 RedFlyer : What you failed to point out, Halibut, in that SeattlePI article is that it mentions SQ's interest in the 787-10. This is the first I've heard of the
115 Post contains images LifelinerOne : My family owns a large fitting company and is doing a lot of work for the A380... And I can assure you that mistakes have been made and that they wer
116 GARPD : The problem is, Airbus are on record with blaming their customers' (the airlines) choice of interiors. So essentialy Airbus are blaming the airlines f
117 Elvis777 : Hello Lifelinerone, While I am sure that what you say is true, that several suppliers were (are ) late in delivering stuff to Airbus, I do not believe
118 SunriseValley : Looking at one of Widebodyphotog's tables would suggest that the A380 west bound , -40k winds, LAX-MEL with QF seating version of 475 passengers, wou
119 Zvezda : It's possible that Boeing's claim that the new JumboJet will have a 6-7% CASM advantage over the WhaleJet is conservative. It wouldn't be the first t
120 RichardJF : Confirming what I had thought. They look like a highly unsuitable plane for Qantas who should have just waited for the 748.
121 N79969 : This would be a huge blow for Airbus if this comes true. There is no way around it or sugar coat. If Emirates also buys the 787, Airbus will have some
122 Zvezda : It's easy to say now that the B747-8 is a much better plane than the WhaleJet for QF. That's true, of course, but overlooks the fact that at the time
123 GARPD : If the Whalejet is really that unsuitable for QF. Is it reasonable to expect cancellations?
124 Zvezda : To expect cancellations would be to overstate the WhaleJet's limitations. It really depends on the price at which Boeing are willing to sell the B747
125 RichardJF : I doubt they would cancel. QF management I'm sure is very invested in that decision. The last thing they would do is admit such a mistake. QF has bee
126 Post contains images GARPD : Thank you gentlemen, very sensible answers
127 Aither : That's just unbelievable to read this. I won't waste my time to answer these kinds of statements....[Edited 2005-12-25 12:57:26]
128 GARPD : Yeah, please don't fill the forum full of your biased unfactual rubbish thanks. This thread has maintained a pretty calm and objective feel to it.
129 Aither : There is no airline representative office in Toulouse.
130 Aither : I agree with that. We should also add some secondary carriers starting to talk about long range operations. Some may ETOPS/LROPS restricted. I think
131 Zvezda : I wouldn't count on that. Geoff Dixon took over just after the WhaleJet order. He probably had a hand in that decision but, to the extent there would
132 RichardJF : I don't generally believe in bigger planes for QF. All the Aussies on a.net compare QF to EK,SQ,CX but they are all powerful single hub airlines. QF i
133 SunriseValley : In my view A380 operators will need premium revenue to offset the disadvantage of about 13% in OEW per passenger. Will the Y class passenger pay it ba
134 Zvezda : Most won't. Most economy passengers won't pay $5 more for an extra 4 inches of pitch. They just choose the lowest price. The WhaleJet is so large tha
135 N79969 : Not correct. Several airlines assign staff to Seattle and Tolouse to work with manufacturers.
136 BoomBoom : I think most frequent fliers would pay because they know what a difference an extra 4 inches of pitch makes. After all what's $5? They readily pay th
137 Aither : Yes but as you said they are "assigned". They do not have a kind of a permanent office you can contact directly. The fact some subcontractors could c
138 SNATH : Unfortunately, I totally agree with you. In the same way, I'm worried that a lot of B787s will end up with a 3-3-3 seat config. Tony
139 Egmcman : VS's hub at LHR is slot constrained and I can't see that being solved over night so the A380 makes lots of sense. Regarding SQ the key phrase in the
140 PhilSquares : If the separation criteria proposed for the 380is adopted, then the arrival rate will actually decrease! The argument the 380 will help slot constrai
141 Zvezda : Count on it. Except when fitted for ULH, I expect all B787s will be fitted either with 9 abreast or with part 8 abreast (premium economy) and part 9
142 N79969 : In Seattle at least, the airline reps have office space and desks.
143 Post contains images Singaporegirl : imho sq will end up with a fleet of a380, b777 and b787. i'm not sure if we're getting the b748i (although w/o a doubt that we will be purchasing the
144 GARPD : You bring up a pretty good point and imo one that kills off on of the biggest arguments for the A380. But will the current ICAO recommendations for t
145 MidnightMike : Lack of information for passengers, over the years, they have gotten used to the fact that the airlines offer the same service & seating lay out. Som
146 Econojetter : Thanks for highlighting this part of the blog. I suspected that SQ was scouting for a successor to their Boeing 777-200ER aircraft when I heard of th
147 Airtropolis : The more I think about it, the more I see the 787/A350s (more the 787s in my opinion), being a factor in the ULH requirement at SQ. Given that these a
148 Post contains links Halibut : http://atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=3565 Singapore Airlines not ready to pull trigger on Boeing order Monday December 26, 2005 Singapore Airl
149 Zvezda : The A350/B787 may be more economical than the A340/B777? We can write confidently that the A350/B787 will be more economical than the A340/B777. It's
150 GARPD : Taking a simplistic view on the situation, a 777/787/748 order would make sense in the fact that SQ have a large 777 fleet and the 787 and 748 will ha
151 Zvezda : That's a minor factor compared to the overall economic differences and pretty well balanced by A340-500s in the fleet now and WhaleJets on order. I t
152 GARPD : Yes, that much I do know. And if we look at the 772LR it seems it is more than capable of SQ's requirements. As I said, I was merely fielding a simpl
153 Zvezda : There is no question that the B777-200LR is capable of meeting SQ's ULH requirements. It is the most capable ULH aircraft currently available for ord
154 GARPD : You raise a valid argument
155 Post contains images Lightsaber : ??? I've worked in locations where the customer demands rights to talk directly with vendors who have a known impact on schedule/cost/significant wei
156 Post contains links MidnightMike : It all depends what mission they are after, there are some differences between the 777-200LR & the 787.... http://atwonline.com/news/story.html?story
157 DAYflyer : So much for the premature death cries about the LR without the Qantas order. Precisely Because perhaps at the moment they are not in the price game??
158 SunriseValley : In my view over selling a product such as a commercial aircraft that is so clearly measurable performance wise, is foolishness and inevitably will ba
159 Stitch : For curiosity's sake, how does it do for SIN-EWR/JFK?
160 Zvezda : The B787-8 would be payload limited for SIN-EWR/JFK. Still-air range with max fuel and payload to MTOW is 10,300nm, but that's only 75-80 passengers.
161 Stitch : So if SQ wants to retire the A345s, she needs 772LRs to handle SIN-EWR/JFK until the 787-9 comes around. So about a five year gap (2007 vs. 2012). Wou
162 Post contains images Zvezda : No, SQ would not what to buy B777-200LRs for only five years of operation. About 12 years is more typical for SQ. However, the B777-200LR could be co
163 Gigneil : I think so... and not just because of cargo, which is valid, but because of cabin width, floor density, and product weight. The first class product S
164 PhilSquares : The problem is measurements have been taken and the wake turbulence is much more than Airbus has predicted. So as a result of the tests, ICAO has com
165 Zvezda : The B777-200LR has a 231 inch cabin width vs the 217.5 inch cabin width of the B787. 13.5 inches certainly could make a difference in whether or not
166 Gigneil : I dunno if I'd expect 1-2-2-1 in the 380. VS only fits 1-2-1 on the 744 for what is ostensibly a business class product and the prediction is they'll
167 Zvezda : Then it should probably be possible to fit 1-1-1 in the B787 as well.
168 Gigneil : Yeah but I'm still thinking the extra weight of the seats will probably make them want to stick to the LR. That, and a seat that would fit 1-1-1 on a
169 PhilSquares : Not quite true, but close. I think you might see that change with the 773ER. However, SQ readily admits underestimating the market for premium seats
170 Gigneil : I totally concur... I was referring to the fact that the longhaul 777s don't have first today. I left out the part where I believed both the 773ER an
171 Zvezda : The B787 cabin is 9.5 inches wider than the A340 cabin. The B777 cabin is 23 inches wider than the A340 cabin, so I'm not quite sure what "stay the s
172 PhilSquares : From what I have seen, the 772LR will mirror the 340 except there will be an F cabin. the F cabin was suppoed to be 2 rows of 1-1-1. I don't know if
173 Stitch : If it is 2-3-2 on the A340 now, then it will go 2-4-2 on the 772LR. But I thought the seats were 20" wide? They must have much narrower armwrests and
174 Zvezda : Do Y seats have narrower armrests than F or C seats? Yes. Aisles are also typically narrower in Y.
175 Post contains links Danny : “We are still evaluating proposals from both manufacturers and we are not leaning one way or the other at this stage of the process,” Stephen Fors
176 Clickhappy : Funny, isnt that what Qantas said, too?
177 WINGS : Zvezda do you know what will be the difference in cabin width between the B787 and the A350? Airbus spoke that the A350 cabin would be wider in relat
178 Zvezda : Hmmm. I can't find anything definitive on that at hand. My recollection is that the change to a more spatially efficient (but more expensive) insulat
179 FlyingHippo : No way... I really do not see A380 (yes, I call it the WhaleJet with affection) being used regularly on PEK-PVG, or any short routes anywhere in the
180 Zvezda : I agree. As evidence, I'll point out that Japanese carriers have been giving up on domestic B747s. I think the largest aircraft that makes economic s
181 NW727251ADV : Just being picky but I don't think the 747 EVER had provisions for a 3-3-3 configuration. The original 9-abreast was 3-4-2 and the need for capacity
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