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Finnair Leasing An Extra A340  
User currently offlineOHLBU From Finland, joined Jan 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6244 times:

Instead of leasing an 8th MD-11 next year Finnair is planning to introduce it´s first A340 in for next summer, a year ahead of getting it's first factory-new airframe. This would be a second-hand example, no news yet where it would come from. Sorry, can not post the link as it is on Finnair's intranet-paged and in Finnish.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6105 times:

I heard here on Anet a while ago that AY couldn't use the A340 on routes to Asia because they use high speed Airways and the A340 isn't fast enough.
Can anyone confirm/correct that?
Thanks
Dominic



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6075 times:

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 1):
I heard here on Anet a while ago that AY couldn't use the A340 on routes to Asia because they use high speed Airways and the A340 isn't fast enough.

Sounds like absolute B.S. to me - the speed-difference betwen an A 340 and an MD 11 is not significant when it comes to block airpace. The thread must have come form an Boeing supporter...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2258 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5924 times:

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 1):
heard here on Anet a while ago that AY couldn't use the A340 on routes to Asia because they use high speed Airways and the A340 isn't fast enough.
Can anyone confirm/correct that?
Thanks
Dominic

Rubbish. The cruise speed on all of them (the widebodies) is about the same. Where it's an issue for ATC, speeds are assigned.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8602 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5906 times:
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Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 3):
The cruise speed on all of them (the widebodies) is about the same.

if that's the case perhaps you could explain why , as an example , a 744 flying SIN-AKL takes about half an hour less than a 767 flying the same route ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5883 times:

The max. cruising speed for the MD-11 is M.0.87 whereas the max. cruising speed for the A 340-300 is about M.0.86...
So the difference is insignificant !



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5776 times:

Thanks for the replies guys.
Is the A340 wet or dry leased?
Thanks
Dominic



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
User currently offlineOHLBU From Finland, joined Jan 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5698 times:

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 6):
Is the A340 wet or dry leased?

Most probably dry, as AY will be getting their own A340s soon enough so the project will just be started earlier.


User currently offlineBlsbls99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5692 times:

Looking forward to seeing the Finnair colors on an A340! Good news for Finnair!


319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5657 times:
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Quoting OHLBU (Reply 7):
Most probably dry, as AY will be getting their own A340s soon enough so the project will just be started earlier.

An leased from who?? Maybe Iberia?? IB and LA are the only users in the Oneworld alliance of the 340 and it sound logical to lease from them, no?



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5580 times:

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 1):
I heard here on Anet a while ago that AY couldn't use the A340 on routes to Asia because they use high speed Airways and the A340 isn't fast enough.

It was me who told that and my source was a MD-11 pilot who was flying these routes regulary. Those routes were located in Russia. This was the situation at least approx. one year ago but situation might have changed after that. However, at least earlier there were some routes, which had a minimum cruise speed limit of M0.82. Like said, I'm not familiar with the current situation there.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
The max. cruising speed for the MD-11 is M.0.87 whereas the max. cruising speed for the A 340-300 is about M.0.86...
So the difference is insignificant !

And Max cruising speed does not have anything to do with ECONOMICAL cruising speed. With max cruise speed you'll have severe payload penalties and reduced range.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 3):
Rubbish. The cruise speed on all of them (the widebodies) is about the same.

Well, in cruise altitudes 6kts difference is only M0.01...

Best Regards,
FinnWings

[Edited 2005-12-23 18:02:12]

User currently offlineTom_EDDF From Germany, joined Apr 2000, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5234 times:

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 10):
It was me who told that and my source was a MD-11 pilot who was flying these routes regulary. Those routes were located in Russia. This was the situation at least approx. one year ago but situation might have changed after that. However, at least earlier there were some routes, which had a minimum cruise speed limit of M0.82.

... which is the typical cruise speed for the A340-300, and most airlines, like LH who's a large A343 operator, fly theirs at M.82. You won't get max. range out of the aircraft at M.82, but it's most economical from a TCO perspective in most situations.

IIRC, there was an issue with the 257t / -311 version which had to operate @ LRC of M.79 or less on certain missions, but I bet they are getting the -313X 271t or 275t MTOW.


User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Do you think they might ramp JFK-HEL to daily?


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5043 times:

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 12):
Do you think they might ramp JFK-HEL to daily?

It's interesting to see how the new planes will change AY's strategy in US & Canada.
The competition there is harder, perhaps the growing markets in Eastern Europe bring more customers to AY.

AY starts Helsinki - Delhi next year, perhaps NYC-HEL-DEL could be reality in future, makes sense on the map atleast.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2184 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4647 times:

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 9):
An leased from who?? Maybe Iberia?? IB and LA are the only users in the Oneworld alliance of the 340 and it sound logical to lease from them, no?

CX has 340s in One World too. Would it reallt make more sense to lease from a OneWorld member than anybody else? They will take whichever they can, IMO. The A340 is such a crappy airplane Big grin that virtually none are available in the second-hand market.

One answer to turn the thread into one more anti340 crap, unbelievable.

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 1):
I heard here on Anet a while ago

Sorcerer. don't trust everything on Anet (especially when it comes to widebodies!)



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineFlying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2397 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4354 times:
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Air France is slowly disposing of its A343s. So who knows...

The first A343 that left AF's fleet is in the hands of Air Madrid.

FB.



Life is great at 41.000 feet...
User currently offlineOHLBU From Finland, joined Jan 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4101 times:

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 12):
Do you think they might ramp JFK-HEL to daily?

HEL-JFK runs daily during summer months when flights are heavily booked, but for winter Finnair has even considered terminating the whole JFK-route as the loads consist mostly of cargo. They are selling HEL-JFK for €299/return at the moment, which is very cheap for a Finnish customer.


User currently offlineRottamo From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3917 times:

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 16):
HEL-JFK runs daily during summer months when flights are heavily booked, but for winter Finnair has even considered terminating the whole JFK-route as the loads consist mostly of cargo. They are selling HEL-JFK for €299/return at the moment, which is very cheap for a Finnish customer.

Source?
You can check their monthly foad factors from DOT (www.dot.gov) web pages (query tool) and these numbers does not support your statement.
Of course, yields can be a lot worse during winter time.

Yours,

Rottamo

P.S. I think that load factor data can be found here:
http://www.transtats.bts.gov/Fields.asp?Table_ID=260

[Edited 2005-12-24 11:10:33]

User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2972 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

This means that DEL might not see the M11 after all? Dang!
:-(



A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineDrakey From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 4):
if that's the case perhaps you could explain why , as an example , a 744 flying SIN-AKL takes about half an hour less than a 767 flying the same route ?

If the 767 is cruising at M.81 and the 744 at M.84, the 744 will fly 18 miles further during each hour of the flight. Therefore after 12 hours flying the 744 will be 216 miles ahead of the 767, which would require roughly 30 minutes to fly that distance (depending on the wind).

These would be typical cruising mach numbers for the heavies I see at work every day:

M.84 / 85 B744
M.83 / 84 B777 / MD11 / DC10
M.82 / 83 A340 / A330
M.81 / 82 B767 / A300

Drakey


User currently offlineOHLBU From Finland, joined Jan 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3139 times:

Quoting Rottamo (Reply 17):
Source?

Well, we see bookings of less than 100 pax per flight on HEL-JFK vv. for January, which is less than good for an aircraft the size of MD-11. This has been the case for years and the yields on Trans-Atlantic have also been low for a long time, because of the intense competition.


User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1626 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

VS are due to dispose of 3 x A343 over the next 12 months. I would guess that some are headed for Virgin Nigeria, however its not impossible that a frame could end up on the market and go to Finnair....

User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2776 times:

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 21):

Are these being replaced by A346?

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 15):
Air France is slowly disposing of its A343s

They are being replaced by T7s?

Thanks
Dominic



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2647 times:

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 15):
Air France is slowly disposing of its A343s. So who knows...

Remember they lost one in YYZ, that might slow the process as I suppose they had one less earlier than they thought.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4464 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 15):
Air France is slowly disposing of its A343s. So who knows...

Anyone knows how TK's 343 are doing? Instead of getting more they opted for the 330-200. Since TK 343' average age is around 10 years old, what do you thing they are planning?
(hint: my username?)


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

I will be sad when the A340 starts to muscle its way in on Finnairs routes. I love the MD11 so much, I was hoping Finnair would stick to aquiring more of those rather than adding other long haul types.

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