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Singapore Air Selects Boeing?  
User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 789 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8152 times:

G´day

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/markets_s...u=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

Per this article Boeing seems to have the edge to also win this order.

Is there anyone out there to substantiate this claim/rumor? Any hints on types to be bought for the $ 10 gigagrand? 787-3 / 787-8 / 787-9 / 787-10 / 777LR or even 747-8?

Any validated input is appreciated

Cheers

Peter


"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1637 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8087 times:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2508572/

Looks promising for Boeing


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7850 times:

The WSJ is reporting it:
Boeing Co. looks set to beat rival Airbus in a contest for a deal valued at more than US$10 billion to supply Singapore Airlines with new long-range passenger planes, according to people familiar with the airline's plans.

Singapore Airlines, the world's second-biggest airline by market capitalization, is considering a firm order for 66 to 80 Boeing aircraft, with an option for up to 30 more, these people said.

"The indication is an order made up mostly of the 777-200LRs and a significant number of the 787 Dreamliners. A few -- five or six -- of the 747-Advance freighters may also be part of the order," one of the people familiar with the situation said.

At this point, the airline isn't considering including any Airbus planes in the order, he and two other people said.

The airline received formal sales pitches from the rival plane makers last month and has been evaluating the bids based on price, fuel efficiency and operating costs.

"The announcement [from Singapore Airlines] could be made anytime between now and the lunar new year [on Jan. 29] and then formalized during the [Asian Aerospace] air show in February," another person familiar with the matter said.

Singapore Airlines' response so far, however, has been noncommittal.

Boeing spokesman Raymond Francis and Airbus spokesman Anthony Philips would only say that they are waiting for Singapore Airlines' decision.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1135...830436.html?mod=home_whats_news_us


User currently offlineKalakaua From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1516 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7181 times:

Then again... It was the WSJ that said Boeing was sure to get the order for 150? 737s from the Chinese awhile back.


Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
User currently offlinePyroGX41487 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6304 times:

Oh my freaking god, is every time an article even BREATHS somthing about an SQ order enough to get the rabble rousers from all ends of the globe on their toes?

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6154 times:

Quoting Kalakaua (Reply 7):
Then again... It was the WSJ that said Boeing was sure to get the order for 150? 737s from the Chinese awhile back.

We don't know that they were wrong. All other sources reported the same thing. It's possible that circumstances may have changed for some reason, or that all of the initial reports were wrong.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2470 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4513 times:

Though it looks promising for BCA, we all know it's not necessarily in the bag, even if a respectable Wall Street analysts postulate that it is. Both airframers have so often been within reach of indisputable victory only to have it snached away by their competitor's last ditch pitch. So, until Singapore itself makes the announcement, it's not a done deal, obviously. All we can truly be certain of is that BCA likely has the inside track toward getting this order.

"At this point, the airline isn't considering including any Airbus planes in the order, he and two other people said."

That's what was publicly said but the airline could still be in secret negotiations with Airbus for a comparable order. Though I'm personally pulling for BCA to win this; it's entirely possible Airbus could do a last-minute end-run around them with a sweetheart contract offering. Given some recent campaign losses, Airbus just might want to go all-out to win this one, assuming SIA isn't adamant about specific aircraft choices. So, Boeing fans, don't be counting your chickens just yet, regardless how good chances seem.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8190 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4448 times:

The original leak was probably just to get Airbus to significantly improve their deal - then we'll see a rumor that will get Boeing dropping their price.  Big grin

User currently offlineCHANGYOU From Singapore, joined Nov 2003, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4260 times:
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Heard some news from the mgt...There will be a split order between Boeing and Airbus. The 5 A345s SQ currently flying will be here to stay and more will be leased to join the fleet soon. SQ is only looking for 10 frames of the ultra long haul fleet including the 5 A345s currently in the system. Therefore a very high chance that no 777LR will be ordered unless Boeing gives SQ a very good deal. Anyway also being mentioned was Airbus had decided to buy back the 5 A345s from SQ and lease them out again with another 5 more. Most probably the ones from AC.

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Quoting CHANGYOU (Reply 14):
Therefore a very high chance that no 777LR will be ordered unless Boeing gives SQ a very good deal. Anyway also being mentioned was Airbus had decided to buy back the 5 A345s from SQ and lease them out again with another 5 more. Most probably the ones from AC.

If Boeing demand a high price for the B777-200LR and Airbus offer a good deal along these lines, then it would be very reasonable for SQ to lease 10 A340-500 from Airbus until the B787 is ready for EWR-SIN nonstop with a good payload.


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

Quoting CHANGYOU (Reply 14):
Heard some news from the mgt...There will be a split order between Boeing and Airbus. The 5 A345s SQ currently flying will be here to stay and more will be leased to join the fleet soon. SQ is only looking for 10 frames of the ultra long haul fleet including the 5 A345s currently in the system. Therefore a very high chance that no 777LR will be ordered unless Boeing gives SQ a very good deal. Anyway also being mentioned was Airbus had decided to buy back the 5 A345s from SQ and lease them out again with another 5 more. Most probably the ones from AC.

Despite what you have heard I doubt the above and would believe it when I see it.

Given SQs dissatisfaction with A345 and was ordered only because of its market headstart of 777LR, coupled with A380 delays and issues and the fact that SQ likes to have the best equipment available almost rules AB out.

A 127 v 15 in orders this year for 777 v A340 would confirm the above. Anything else you hear about A at Singapore in this round is designed purely to obtain a 'better price' from Boeing.

I for one would be stunned if SQ gets more A345 but I guess it depends on exactly how desperate A has become to 'buy' some widebody share!!!!


User currently offlineCHANGYOU From Singapore, joined Nov 2003, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4139 times:
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SQ is very happy with the A345s performance. As long as the oil $ is below $75 a barrel it won't feel much difference from the 777LR. This was according to a captain from the A345 fleet. I really have no idea where the idea of SQ is not happy with the A345s came from. Wonder when did SQ express out their disatisfaction. Both the ULH flights are generating good money. SQ will not just change the equiptment without the 777LR proving it's capabilities on a revenue flight first.

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 16):

Given SQs dissatisfaction with A345



Quoting CHANGYOU (Reply 17):
. I really have no idea where the idea of SQ is not happy with the A345s came from. Wonder when did SQ express out their disatisfaction


Good question. Similar rumours, predicting doomsday for Airbus appear on here often. However more than once they've been proved wrong. A good example was EK's 'imminent' cancelation of the A346 after they ordered the 777 at the DXB airshow.

However even if SQ decides to keep the A345 and adds 5 more, as you suggested, a new scenario will overshadow that deal. Such as...

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 16):
how desperate A has become to 'buy' some widebody share!!!!

Tiresome, really...



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User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

Quoting CHANGYOU (Reply 17):
SQ is very happy with the A345s performance. As long as the oil $ is below $75 a barrel it won't feel much difference from the 777LR. This was according to a captain from the A345 fleet.

Changyou, I don't think your Pilot friend is paying for the Fuel and if he was then he would no doubt go the way of 777 with its better fuel efficiency, lighter OEW and larger payload. (Where are Widebodyphotog graphs and tables when you need them.) But you could try CX switching to 777 as an example of superior operating costs and Emirates for 42 recent orders. Somehow I think your A345 capt is not in 'sync' with the bean counters.

I may well be wrong but I am still convinced SIA want 777/787 but at a good price. Airbus only role in this will be to lower Boeings price at best and at worst supplying SQ Widebodys at a loss.


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4020 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 18):
Tiresome, really...

Tiresome is an interesting word Manni and you are certainly that in your defence of Airbus and always biting the bait... biting 

However given the slaughtering of A340 by 777 your wingeing about posts stating exactly that is 'tiresome'

Accept the fact that unfortunately for you 777 is superior to A340. I don't argue 767 is superior to A330. If I did I to would seem 'tiresome'

Build a bridge Manni and get over it... bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4002 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 21):
Tiresome is an interesting word Manni and you are certainly that in your defence of Airbus and always biting the bait...

Hahaha, and this from the man who recently posted, ...

"Don't get me wrong I love the A330 but if QF don't get 787 then it will be Air New Zealand from PER to AKL for me thats for sure"



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User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3963 times:

Quoting CHANGYOU (Reply 17):
This was according to a captain from the A345 fleet. I really have no idea where the idea of SQ is not happy with the A345s came from. Wonder when did SQ express out their disatisfaction. Both the ULH flights are generating good money. SQ will not just change the equiptment without the 777LR proving it's capabilities on a revenue flight first.

OK, out comes the BS flag!!! The 345 was sold to SQ as being able to do a lot more than it is. The biggest problem with the 345 is it can't lift what Airbus said it could in terms of payload. The 777 can.

I don't know who you talked to on the 345 fleet, but next time, get their name. I can point you to several people at STC on the 4th floor who aren't too happy at all. In fact, they're just waiting until the 772LR is here.

You are correct, the ULH are generating good money, but with the 772LR they would generate more and the costs would be less!!!!


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 22):
Hahaha, and this from the man who recently posted, ...

"Don't get me wrong I love the A330 but if QF don't get 787 then it will be Air New Zealand from PER to AKL for me thats for sure"

So Manni so whats wrong with posting the above. I admit A330 is a nice aircraft but myself along with obviously Qantas acknowledge that the 787 is better so the A330 days at QF are numbered.

What is your point Manni??


User currently offlineHb88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 814 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

I wonder if the production of the A340-500/600 HMTOW variant might affect Singapores future plans? The first a/c flew the other week and it seems that this version might cure the claimed faults (payload etc) of the original A340. There may be some motivation for SQ to continue with this a/c line as they seem to be well-liked by pax. Personally as a passenger, I prefer the A340 (or the 747 for that matter) for long haul as I've always found the 777 quite noisy - which in a LH aircraft is not ideal.

User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3714 times:

With regard to the HMTOW 500/600 I believe the horse has well and truly bolted. It is a big call for Airbus as to wether they will recoup even more developement money on A345/6 so soon after initial development.

It is true to say that this 345/346 NG so to speak has only occurred because of the superior operating efficiencies of the 777 over the A340. This has not been lost on the Airlines either to which the turnaround of 127 777s to 15 A340s reflects this accurately.
The HMOTW will allow more fuel maybe some more payload but it won't do a hell of a lot to improve efficiency. Given the amount its costing it will be too little too late and who knows how much difference it will make in A340 sales in the next two years.

I don't believe SQ are interested in A346 or more A345. The 345 cannot carry sufficient payload and thats part of the problem. SQ have already ordered a large number of 773ER (like nearly everyone else) and it would seem more likely given SQs already large 777 fleet that 777LR will make an appearence and that Boeing will progress from being a 343 dealer to a 345 dealer.

Time will tell thats for sure


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4119 posts, RR: 90
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3689 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 16):
A 127 v 15 in orders this year for 777 v A340

For your clarification sir

777 Firm orders booked 131 not 127 whilst A340 orders stand at 15, whilst 3 A343E for Finnair have yet to be firmed, which should take their total to 18

Regards, PanAm_DC10   

[Edit: spelling]

[Edited 2005-12-25 14:13:05]


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineUALMMFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

Speaking from my own experience based on flying the 777s with UA, SQ CZ and CA, and the A340s with SQ, MU. CX and TG, I'd like to share some of the following:

1. Noise of the aircraft/Engine: I have found PW engines appear to be louder than RR and GE on the 777. GE engines appear to be less Loud than RR. I am not sure the types of engines were/are fitted on the A340 with SQ, CX, MU or TG.... I have found the noise level varies between the the them with MU the loudest.

2. I like the A340, but I prefer the higher ceiling and wider body of the 777. I have found the A340 interior to rattle each time the plane take off and land. 777 seem to be more well built, although the A340 is a fine aircraft

3. Pending on the configurations, I like the standard A340 layout with no middle C seats, and the 2-4-2 layout in Y vs the 3-3-3/2-5-2 in the 777. Just a personal preference, and I do understand this relates to the width of the aircraft.

5. I don't have the in-depth knowledge of the fuel burn rate or the cargo/passenger weight capacity for either aircraft therefore I cannot comment which is better to operate for the airlines, but as a passenger, I have found both aircraft to be excellent planes. I do find the 777 to be better built than the A340. It will be interesting to see the average useful life of the 777 vs 340. I have flown enough A300/A310 and 757/767 in my life, and I have found the 757/767 seem to age better... of course this all depend on the maintenance program of each airlines.

6. Still love the A330... there is really no better aircraft in this category until the 787/A350 roll out.


As regard to whether SQ is satisfied or not satisfied with the A345, I just want to point out a few factors to consider:

1. SQ did not exercise the 5 options on the A345
2. SQ is the proud with its innovative first class cabin for the last 20 years, and there is no F in the A345
3. The number of delays and cancellation due to aircraft issues on the SIN-LAX/EWR routes versus other long-haul routes on other aircrafts in the SQ system.
4. Cost to maintain and operate an 777 (already the world's largest) and 744 fleet vs having an additional 5 to 10 A345 in the mix.
5. 19 773ER (developed jointly with the 772LR) are on the way.



Treat others like you'd like to be treated!
User currently offlineHb88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 814 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3545 times:

Interesting points. We'll see I guess.

I'm not sure how much development money was sunk in the further development of the HMTOW A340 given that the first aircraft has flown and the changes are more related to the engine equipping and construction technology which were spun off the A380 program.

I have to agree on the A330 though. I think it's one of the nicest and most comfortable aircraft I've flown in, even in cattle class - and it is a beautiful a/c too.


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 34):
You should visit that and notify the Moderators, immediately.

Been done already.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9979 posts, RR: 96
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2629 times:
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Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 26):
The HMOTW will allow more fuel maybe some more payload but it won't do a hell of a lot to improve efficiency



Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 26):
The 345 cannot carry sufficient payload and thats part of the problem.

The HGW A345/6's have about 400nm range advantage over existing A345/6.

I'm pretty sure you're right that they won't do a hell of a lot to improve efficiency, but that extra 400nm might make a substantial difference to the payload that it can carry on routes that are currently at (or even somewhat beyond) the extreme limits of the base A345's capability (eg SIN - LAX/EWR).

Whether it's enough to make it worthwhile for SQ?
We'll find out fairly soon, I guess.
A


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8872 posts, RR: 75
Reply 25, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

Spoke to a very senior management pilot of SQ over the festive season, he went to an SQ outstation to buy the crew lunch, apparently they send managers out to all outposts and buy crews a nice lunch. Its a nice touch.

He was cagy, was leaning to a 80+ 787/777/747 "decision" in early feb, subject to a few "issues" to be sorted out. Would not comment further.

Sorry this may offend some US based readers who think talking to people over a drink is not a reliable source.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
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