Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
EOS October Loads For STN-JFK  
User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4318 times:

It seems EOS had a difficult month in October!


UK AIRPORT:
STANSTED
FOREIGN AIRPORT:
NEW YORK (JF KENNEDY)
THIS MONTH TOTAL SCHEDULED PAX:
255


Taken from:
International Air Pax Traffic Route Analysis Table 12
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...=80&pagetype=88&sglid=3&fld=200510



With 48 seats offered on its daily STN-JFK route, EOS carried on average 8 passengers every day for the whole of October....ouch!

The CAA doesn't have the stats on JFK-STN - maybe EOS are doing better there than STN-JFK.
The stats for November have not been published yet on the CAA website - it would be interesting to see what the loads are like considering Maxjet started JFK-STN on 1st Nov!

Slightly off topic, but it seems BA did very well in October on its MAN-JFK flight, which is incidently wholly reliant upon O&D traffic:
UK AIRPORT:
MANCHESTER
FOREIGN AIRPORT:
NEW YORK (JF KENNEDY)
THIS MONTH TOTAL SCHEDULED PAX:
11,425


31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBBJII From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 850 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4309 times:

October stats are worthless. The hadn't been running very long at all.

Wait for November and December.


  

[Edited 2005-12-24 14:22:46]


Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
User currently offlineScottieDog From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4305 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Thread starter):
Slightly off topic, but it seems BA did very well in October on its MAN-JFK flight, which is incidently wholly reliant upon O&D traffic:
UK AIRPORT:
MANCHESTER
FOREIGN AIRPORT:
NEW YORK (JF KENNEDY)
THIS MONTH TOTAL SCHEDULED PAX:
11,425

Unfortunately that gives an average load of 368 - which is a bit big for a 767. Did you by any chance forget that PIA operate the route as well?

Oh well - Happy Christmas everybody.  veryhappy 


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4296 times:

Quoting BBJII (Reply 1):
October stats are worthless. The hadn't been running very long at all.

What for November and December

You are right - just realised they started the route on 25th October. So, if they carried 255 passengers for the remaining six days of October, they carried on average 42.5 passengers on every flight! Pretty impressive!

Quoting ScottieDog (Reply 2):
Unfortunately that gives an average load of 368 - which is a bit big for a 767. Did you by any chance forget that PIA operate the route as well?

Sorry - totally forgot about PIA! But considering PIA operate MAN-JFK 3 times a week, most of the passengers must be BA's!

Merry Christmas everyone!  Wink


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7083 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4288 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 3):
You are right - just realised they started the route on 25th October. So, if they carried 255 passengers for the remaining six days of October, they carried on average 42.5 passengers on every flight!

These figures are return, not single. Average 21 per flight (which included the inagural flight).



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2860 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4267 times:

Mark my word, both EOS and maxjet will be tits up within a year and a half.

User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2915 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 4159 times:

Quoting Mika (Reply 5):
Mark my word, both EOS and maxjet will be tits up within a year and a half.

I haven't heard this expression before and it totally made my morning!  rotfl 


User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4115 times:

Quoting Mika (Reply 5):
Mark my word, both EOS and maxjet will be tits up within a year and a half.

Do you have any further argumentation of this? The market segment that they are in is very lucrative indeed and although they might not survive together, maybe one will. EOS has been the best funded startup airline ever, so they have quite a long breath.

I know the figures add up for BBJs and A319CJs, a 757 is a bit more risky but a 767 cuts right into your margins if you have a quiet month. I wonder why they didn't start off with a BBJ and grow as the load factors increased, using the BBJ to explore new city pairs at relatively low costs.

Grbld


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4097 times:

Slightly off-topic, but do MaxJet and/or EOS also carry cargo?

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2860 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4036 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 7):
Do you have any further argumentation of this? The market segment that they are in is very lucrative indeed and although they might not survive together, maybe one will. EOS has been the best funded startup airline ever, so they have quite a long breath.

I don't have much else to base this on than my gut feeling and what i've seen happen in the airline industry in the past. That's enough for me. I add to that the inate tendency that most people have to both feel and show themselves off in a as high social class as possible. I for one would rather be for example a HON or Senator with an all-class carrier like LH where i can feel special among people who have not chosen or had the direct ability to pay for the fare in my class (be it business or first or whatever class). It does sound sad and abit tragic but i do believe that this kind of thinking and acting is very common, regardless if most of us want to admit it or not, and an all business/first carrier like EOS or Maxjet don't give any room for it.

Again, 1,5 years from now i am very certain that you will see both these carriers tits up and out of operation.


User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1311 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 7):
I wonder why they didn't start off with a BBJ and grow as the load factors increased, using the BBJ to explore new city pairs at relatively low costs.

Using a BBJ with the current seat configuration that they have on the 757s would afford them far less seats than the 48 they have on the 757. With that few seats it is all dependent on the yield and not worth taking the risk. If they did put the 48 seats in a BBJ or a 319CJ, then how are they different from PrivatAir and Lufthansa's all business class service.

Also, they are going for a tried and tested route, where we know for a fact that business travel between the two cities is very very lucrative. Don't see a reason to explore other city pairs in such an infancy stage.

cheers



I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4008 times:

Quoting Mika (Reply 5):
Mark my word, both EOS and maxjet will be tits up within a year and a half.

My money is on Maxjet, if they can sign up a Frequent Flyer program with a partner, that would be the final piece to the puzzle.

The price is right for a biz class airline, hell, this year I went to the UK twice for business on United, if I have to do that again, I am going to have my company fly me from LAX to New York so that I can catch Maxjet, looks like they have a better product!



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Thread starter):
Slightly off topic, but it seems BA did very well in October on its MAN-JFK flight, which is incidently wholly reliant upon O&D traffic

Check your facts.... British Airways sells plenty of connections via Manchester!

KAHALA777


User currently offlineIndio66 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

I think that EOS will fail because (i) its too expensive compared to AA, VS, BA business class, (ii) business travelers want to go to LHR for London business and connections, (iii) business travelers like a variety of flights to choose from, especially late departures (in each direction), and (iv) many of the large purchasers (i-banks, law firms and so on) have good corporate deals (again, on VS, AA, BA).

MaxJet may do a little better because the rates are much cheaper.

Just my two cents.


User currently offlineConcorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1230 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3874 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 12):
Check your facts.... British Airways sells plenty of connections via Manchester!

They may sell connections, but I doubt that is the primary purpose of the flight. BA's MAN-JFK flight is primarily concerned with O&D traffic - I remember looking at 2004 statistics which showed approx 90% of traffic on the route as point to point. BA use LHR as their primary hub with Gatwick second.


User currently offlineSamL From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3828 times:

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 14):
They may sell connections, but I doubt that is the primary purpose of the flight. BA's MAN-JFK flight is primarily concerned with O&D traffic -

Perhaps connections offered at the US end rather than through MAN are more significant


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 13):
I think that EOS will fail because (i) its too expensive compared to AA, VS, BA business class

From what I've seen, EOS really seems to target F class passengers.

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineBBJII From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 850 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 8):
Slightly off-topic, but do MaxJet and/or EOS also carry cargo?

EOS...yes...
Not sure of all the facts...but @ STN there's a truck that goes from the Inbound to the Cargo centre (not Fedex) after every flight.
It Returns with 2-3 pallets for the outbound.

MAXJET....I heard something about a possible link up with UPS, for NYC-LON-NYC urgent packages.

 wave 



Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
User currently offlineDavidT From Switzerland, joined Oct 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3745 times:

Glad to see MAN-JFK is doing well. I was one of those 11,425 pax  Smile The flights were chock-a-block full.

I hope both Maxjet and Eos survive. Although my gut instinct tells me that won't happen.

Maxjet offer a really good product for the money, and Eos has a simply superb seat. It's what Club World should be  Smile


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3717 times:

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 13):
I think that EOS will fail because (i) its too expensive compared to AA, VS, BA business class, (ii) business travelers want to go to LHR for London business and connections, (iii) business travelers like a variety of flights to choose from, especially late departures (in each direction), and (iv) many of the large purchasers (i-banks, law firms and so on) have good corporate deals (again, on VS, AA, BA).

EOS provides First Class service, so, you need to compare EOS to the airlines first class service......



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineStanstedFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2001, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3182 times:

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 13):
(ii) business travelers want to go to LHR for London business and connections, (iii) business travelers like a variety of flights to choose from,

Interesting points, but it can be quicker to the city from Stansted - Rail Express, change to DLR. Heathrow relies mainly on the Tube and getting accross London that way sometimes isn't much fun.

Also plenty of Euro connections via EasyJet & Ryanair. Ok, so the service isn't as good, but if it goes where you want, jump on.


View the photos by C Newman on Airliners.net!
User currently offlineLegendDC9 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3133 times:

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 13):
MaxJet may do a little better because the rates are much cheaper.

How do you figure? Their rates make no sense. The 767 is so expensive to operate that they need 150% load factor to break even on a $1000 RT and they sell seats for far less. If they are in the business of losing money, they are doing one hell of a hell of a job. They did not start out with that much money, they can't be doing all that great. There is a reason business class costs more money, it's because service costs money. If you just give it away you will not be in business for long. As former Legend... I have seen that before.


User currently offlineLuvflng From Costa Rica, joined Nov 2000, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3036 times:

I agree with LegendDC9 that right now use of B767 is not making sense.

Doing a little bit of research on Airline Monitor, I found that on average it cost an airline operating B767 $4606.04 per block hour. Also the aforementioned source used 449 miles per block hour as the average speed of the aircraft.

The distance between JFK and STN is 3471 mile as reported by the great circle mapper service (http://gc.kls2.com)

Hence it takes on average 7.73 hours for B767 to fly this distance at 449 mpbh resulting in one way trip cost of $35,607.04.

Now, taking into consideration a 65% load factor, it results in 30 seats out of 46 being occupied. $35,607.04/30 = $1,186.90 cost per sold seat. I went to Max Jet's website and priced a O/W trip to Stansted at $679.00;

Surely at these prices they will not be able to cover their operating expenses let alone overhead expenses such as administration and selling.

I certainly hope that these carriers survive because they are innovative and push the envelope in the aviation industry. It will take however, some tweaking in their strategy to induce loyalty and demand for this product.

luvflng



Radar Contact Terminated, Squawk VFR
User currently offlineFCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

Y'all are getting the two airlines confused.

EOS has the 48-seat B757s. MaxJet has 102 seats in their B767s.



USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
User currently offlineKubus From Poland, joined Dec 2005, 181 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

I just had to sign up to post here, long time lurker, about 4 years I think.

Luvflng,
You forgot one very major difference between EOS and MaxJet. MaxJet configured their 762's with 102 seats.
So with 65% load factor it comes out to about $540. Also keep in mind that those $679 seats are limited, for example Jan 3rd return flight has them sold out already, next one up is $979.
Another thing about MaxJet is that yes they have Cargo operation, and also 757 in charter service as well as 2nd and 3rd 762 coming online to make JFL-STN flight daily, open Dulles-STN daily I think end of Feb or beg March. The 3rd 762 is for spares and for charter operation as well.
So their business is expending and also is not focused or more like dependent on one source of income.
I would like to see what MaxJet's real load factors are. From what I've seen and read, they are higher then 65%, hence going to daily flight and 2nd route.


25 B707Stu : Someone beat me to it, but you left out PK flights, whether they were daily or 3x a week, they're all wide-bodied either 777 or 743. True. I witnesse
26 SNATH : (Kubus, welcome!) So it looks as if both airlines are carrying some cargo for extra revenue. A great plan if you ask me! There was alslo some indicat
27 MidnightMike : I am guessing that your numbers are from a 767, equipped with 3 class service. Since MaxJet, has less seats and a standard Business Class service, it
28 Brido : You mean: Like saying things like this? High social class indeed.
29 Kubus : I really hope MaxJet and EOS will survive and find the niche with services they offer. MaxJet especially is not only hitting the business market but a
30 David_itl : PK's MAN-JFK service attracts very little traffic - a lot less than 10,000 passengers a year. BA may well offer connections out of MAN but, it does se
31 MaverickM11 : Uh huh...they wish...it's not going to get better unless they're going for Independence Air's breakeven load factors.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
EOS Takes Off, Inaugural Flight JFK-STN posted Wed Oct 19 2005 03:01:45 by Markdirk
How's JetBlue's Advance Bookings For ORD-JFK/LGB? posted Tue Dec 5 2006 21:36:03 by FWAERJ
Loads For My BA Flight Friday (Nov 24th) posted Tue Nov 21 2006 03:11:06 by SpeedBird203
'Bond Girls' For DL JFK-LGW Service posted Wed Nov 8 2006 05:34:50 by Delta4eva
Loads For LH On Dec 13th! posted Sun Nov 5 2006 17:02:54 by Thepilot730
WN Loads For OCT 6th In BNA posted Thu Oct 5 2006 18:41:20 by Tys777
Help With WN Loads For Fri Oct 6 posted Thu Oct 5 2006 18:39:01 by Tys777
Loads For The Evening BWI-LAX On UA posted Fri Sep 29 2006 21:38:46 by Malaysia
How Much Longer For AA JFK-ZRH posted Mon Jul 17 2006 03:23:57 by ContinentalEWR
SK Loads For Non-rev Travel posted Wed Jul 12 2006 23:29:14 by Beowulf