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Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft  
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12331 times:

I thought at one time Aeroflot was leaning towards the A350? Was this on somebody's radar screen?


MOSCOW, Dec 27 (Reuters) - Flagship Russian carrier Aeroflot, which tendered for long-haul aircraft in July, wants to buy 22 Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) planes worth more than $2.5 billion, business dailies Kommersant and Vedomosti reported on Tuesday.

Kommersant quoted sources at the airline as saying a contract could be signed in March. It said Aeroflot had recently amended the tender and could buy as many as 28 aircraft instead of 22.

Vedomosti quoted Aeroflot sources as saying the company had decided in favour of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-12-27_06-25-06_l27275701_newsml


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User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12294 times:
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That was kind of unexpected considering that Aeroflot has been taking up Airbus airplanes and getting rid of the Boeing airplanes, namely 777's. That would be great news for Boeing, if it really happens.

Is the 787 the only airplane considered for this round of orders?


User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12249 times:

If this pans out, I certainly did not expect this.
As with the thread starter, I thought Airbus had this in the bag.

I thought ther A350 fitted Aeroflot better than the 787.

Politics anyone?



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User currently offlineNASOCEANA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12204 times:

It seems that Boeing has taken a page from the 787 blueprints and shed its excess weight to become a seriously efficient sales machine. Their sales pace has undoubtedly been truly amazing!

Maybe Newsweek should have chosen "The Boeing Sales Team" as person of the Year, instead of Bill and Melinda Gates!!!!!



B777 greatest Airliner ever built!
User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12198 times:

Quoting GARPD (Reply 2):
If this pans out, I certainly did not expect this.
As with the thread starter, I thought Airbus had this in the bag.

I thought ther A350 fitted Aeroflot better than the 787.

Politics anyone?

I tend not to think so, GARPD.

My experience with Russians is that they appreciate the latest and greatest in any technology, which I think that the B787 clearly represents in commercial aviation.

Well, maybe it does help that Boeing has such a strong presence in Moscow and elsewhere throughout Russia now, but Aeroflot is independent of the government now.


User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12173 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
My experience with Russians is that they appreciate the latest and greatest in any technology, which I think that the B787 clearly represents in commercial aviation.

And my experience is that they'll invariably cave in to a good offer  Wink



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User currently offlineMOW From Israel, joined Dec 2005, 192 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12160 times:

As always with SU, you believe it when you see it (signed). At this stage we've got only rumors - insiders at Russian government say that B is more preferable because "they are offering a bolder and more break-through product". It would be ridiculous to make any conclusions based on such statements only. According to the Russian newspapers mentioned, sources at SU say that nothing is decided yet and the final decision is due in March.

User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12154 times:

I love how every sale is because of XY and Z but never because a good product was sold at a good price.


-AJR-
User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12130 times:

Quoting GARPD (Reply 5):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
My experience with Russians is that they appreciate the latest and greatest in any technology, which I think that the B787 clearly represents in commercial aviation.

And my experience is that they'll invariably cave in to a good offer

Well, yes, a good offer probably made the difference. I agree.


User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12064 times:

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 7):
I love how every sale is because of XY and Z but never because a good product was sold at a good price.

That's because in reality, it IS because of XY and Z.  Wink



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User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12040 times:

Quoting GARPD (Reply 9):
That's because in reality, it IS because of XY and Z.

Might be reality, but the other reality is that 99% of the time you don't know what XY&Z.



-AJR-
User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12008 times:

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 10):
Might be reality, but the other reality is that 99% of the time you don't know what XY&Z.

I beg to differ, 30% of the time I know or have a fair idea  Wink But that's just me.
Anyway back on topic: If this pans out, I'll be surprised, but not overly shocked.



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User currently offlineDeltaWings From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12000 times:

It could also be, that they want a direct 767-300 replacement and the A350 is a bit bigger. I can imagine, that SU will get both 788 and 789.


Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11968 times:

Quoting GARPD (Reply 11):
I beg to differ, 30% of the time I know or have a fair idea

that's what I mean, we all may have a fair idea but... A fair idea is not a confirmed rumor, so maybe you are telling me 30% of the time you know 30% of the time?

- Not trying to get technical, just want to make the point that we usually don't know the exact reason, but maybe just a good guess.



-AJR-
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11725 times:

Does anyone remember on another forum where sources from SU Management said that they had already chosen the A350 and were going to announce very soon?
It's very unstable, but I could see them getting the 787 to replace their 763s, but maybe not, as the 763s are still very young (especially comapred to the Tu-154s) Here's statistics on SUs 763 fleet (sorry if I omitted any new deliveries)

Act 25117 767-3T7(ER) VP-BWV Aeroflot 1994-08-11
Act 29618 767-38A(ER) VP-BDI Aeroflot 2003-08-15
Act 30107 767-36N(ER) VP-BAV Aeroflot 1999-08-20
Act 30109 767-36N(ER) VP-BAX Aeroflot 1999-10-01
Act 30110 767-36N(ER) VP-BAY Aeroflot 1999-12-15
Act 30111 767-36N(ER) VP-BAZ Aeroflot 1999-12-16
Act 30342 767-341(ER) VP-BWQ Aeroflot 2004-09-09



If they are going iwth Boeing however, I must say that The Boeing sales team is really amazing -- quite a comeback from about a year ago when I thought Airbus sales had it made (such as jetBlue, Northwest etc. etc.)



What now?
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11693 times:

Quoting GARPD (Reply 2):

I thought ther A350 fitted Aeroflot better than the 787.

Actually, given that they have given up on the 777 because of its size, the A350 would likely also be too big. The 788 is perfect.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11666 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Actually, given that they have given up on the 777 because of its size, the A350 would likely also be too big. The 788 is perfect.

hmm, good point.

I suppose part of me thought that due to Airbus' obvious tactics in Russia, that the A350 was garaunteed an order.



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User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11645 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):

Actually, given that they have given up on the 777 because of its size, the A350 would likely also be too big. The 788 is perfect.

This is the key point - Aeroflot dropped the 777 because of size, not because there was anything wrong with the aircraft. Aeroflot used its 777s on the JFK route, and there is simply not adequate demand during the low season winter period. No other route in the Aeroflot network really required the 777 - and the lease rates on the 777 were rather high.

It does seem that Boeing has correctly sized the 787 models - many airlines seem to prefer less seats per aircraft - this makes opening new routes less risky and cuts down on excess capacity killing yeilds. When Airbus "supersized" its A350 in order to make sure that the operating numbers were correct and to lock in the EK order (which has not yet happened), it may have made a mistake.......airlines seem to be looking for the next generation 767/A310, not a successor to the 772. Its gets more and more interesting......


User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11610 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 17):
It does seem that Boeing has correctly sized the 787 models - many airlines seem to prefer less seats per aircraft - this makes opening new routes less risky and cuts down on excess capacity killing yeilds. When Airbus "supersized" its A350 in order to make sure that the operating numbers were correct and to lock in the EK order (which has not yet happened), it may have made a mistake.......airlines seem to be looking for the next generation 767/A310, not a successor to the 772. Its gets more and more interesting...

This is precisely my belief also. I think Airbus focused so hard on winning EK with the A350 that they lost sight of the 787s real mission, an A300/767/A330 replacement.

Instead Airbus are focusing on higher seats to balance the economics better. This will be fine for some airlines, as we are seeing, but it is not the ultimate answer.



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User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 19, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day ago) and read 11519 times:

Quoting GARPD (Reply 16):
I suppose part of me thought that due to Airbus' obvious tactics in Russia, that the A350 was garaunteed an order.

Which "obvious tactics in Russia" would you be referring to here?

Quoting GARPD (Reply 18):
I think Airbus focused so hard on winning EK with the A350 that they lost sight of the 787s real mission, an A300/767/A330 replacement.

The A350 was not supposed to be a replacement for the A300, because it simply doesn't fit the mission requirements - the airlines were quite clear towards Airbus that they didn't like the A330-100 that Airbus had presented for that mission at one time (quite a number of airlines specifically pointing out the too-large wingspan); if anything, the A350 is even more geared towards longhauls than the A330 is, something the A300 clearly is not.

I do have to admit that ignoring the A300 and non-ER-B767 replacement market seems somewhat strange to me, because very few airlines will want to misuse longhaul planes for shorthaul missions like SQ with the B777s; maybe - let's make that hopefully - Airbus is working hard on the realization of that constant recurring rumor aka A305... because right now it really looks as if Airbus is ignoring the part of the market they started out with... and I seriously doubt that they expect all airlines to be wanting to fulfill all of their shorthaul-missions with the A320-series or B737-series in the future...

But as for Aeroflot - personally, I considered it more than likely from the start that they'd be going to Boeing for their longhaulers. I wouldn't mind being proved wrong with that, but I expect SU to be flying B787s in the future.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day ago) and read 11455 times:

note that Aeroflot will also lease 2 more 767's, ex-KL to be delivered in mid and end 2006....

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4217 posts, RR: 89
Reply 21, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day ago) and read 11449 times:
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COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
Which "obvious tactics in Russia" would you be referring to here?

Perhaps it is a reference to EADS recent purchase of 10% of Irkut.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
I wouldn't mind being proved wrong with that

It is early days yet and this report may be correct, maybe not. We just have to wait and see.  Smile

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day ago) and read 11425 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
the airlines were quite clear towards Airbus that they didn't like the A330-100 that Airbus had presented for that mission at one time (quite a number of airlines specifically pointing out the too-large wingspan)

Not to mention the fact that the A330 airframe is optimized for longer missions and has proved unable to cope with the pounding of short haul, quick turn ops

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
misuse longhaul planes for shorthaul missions like SQ with the B777s

Actually, using the 777 on short hops isn't really a misuse as the airframe was initially developed to perform well on short-medium haul missions.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 23, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day ago) and read 11413 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 21):
Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
Which "obvious tactics in Russia" would you be referring to here?

Perhaps it is a reference to EADS recent purchase of 10% of Irkut.

I guess that's what he was pointing at - but...

How would that get Airbus an advantage in comparison to Boeing's investments in Russia, which started several years back?

If at all, I'd say it might have evened out the scales tipping heavily in favor of Boeing (depending on how influence such things still have at SU)...

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineGARPD From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day ago) and read 11402 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
he A350 was not supposed to be a replacement for the A300, because it simply doesn't fit the mission requirements - the airlines were quite clear towards Airbus that they didn't like the A330-100 that Airbus had presented for that mission at one time (quite a number of airlines specifically pointing out the too-large wingspan); if anything, the A350 is even more geared towards longhauls than the A330 is, something the A300 clearly is not.

I do have to admit that ignoring the A300 and non-ER-B767 replacement market seems somewhat strange to me, because very few airlines will want to misuse longhaul planes for shorthaul missions like SQ with the B777s

This is entirely my point. The need for a direct 767/A300/A310 replacement was obvious. especialy for the widebody short/medium haul sector.
This is one reason why the 787 is the size it is. It can fullfill short, medium and long haul operations, replacing the A300/A310 and 767.
However, the A350 can only ecomonicaly operate long haul. Airbus focused the product too much on EK's needs. Airbus claim the A350 is a 787 competitor when ultimately it is not. Its bigger.

You mention an A330-100. I am not surprised it was not well received as I can see that as beeing too heavy and not economical to replace the A300/A310. Shrinking a plane like the A330, optimised for long haul is not going to work. Boeing tried it with the 777-100 and failed.
So it puzzles me why Airbus are leaving the 767/A310/A300 market solely to the 787.

Is EK really that important?



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25 PanAm_DC10 : True, it would have evened out the scales as you say. However, let's not forget that Airbus recently stated they wish to increase the amount of outso
26 FCKC : Personnaly i will be very careful , and will wait for the day the order will be signed.
27 GARPD : It was indeed. My bad for not naming EADS but Airbus. The way I read it, the purchase came at the same time SU was considering an Airbus or Boeing or
28 Post contains links Manni : http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=11717 This article points out a third possibility. According to the Russian newspaper the Kommersant, the orde
29 Post contains images BuyantUkhaa : If a Korean quotes a Dutch news source, I think it's only fair for a Mongolian to translate it: "Some months ago ago Aeroflot stated it wanted to ren
30 USAF336TFS : Then perhaps you can tell us why wasn't it politics when their single aisle choice was Airbus? But they chose the B787 (Maybe) over the A350 because
31 DIA : Correct. Enter the 777-200 (no ER or LR on these ships).
32 Atmx2000 : Increasing outsourcing to Russian aerospace companies. But Boeing had already signed various deals. That actually isn't so obvious with the rash of L
33 Stitch : Perhaps they don't feel the market is big enough to develop a specialized A350-700? I have no clue how many A300s and A310s are out there, and of tho
34 FCKC : In another article read that SU has chosen THE (not two) manufacturer (probably Boeing) and will sign their order in March next year.
35 MOW : Exactly!
36 Airbazar : To me personally, Aeroflot getting the A350 never made sense. They got rid of the 777's because they were too much capacity. The 787 makes more sense.
37 Atmx2000 : Given that the vast majority of sales to date for the 787 have been for the 788, and the large installed base of 767ERs, clearly there is a strong ma
38 BoomBoom : Rather short sighted, wouldn't you say? If Airbus will not provide the products airlines want, then Boeing will be only to happy to have the entire m
39 Atmx2000 : Remember, that this is only informed speculation. But I would also say that the first two reasons are far more important reasons for not offering a d
40 Glideslope : There actually was a small segment on CNN about a week ago on this line. The Boeing comeback is one if not the greatest comeback in the history of bu
41 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : I think what ever the outcome maybe it will not be a split of 787 ang A350's. Because of size I would the 787.
42 Post contains images AerospaceFan : Hmm. I don't get why Aeroflot is choosing a Western aircraft at all. Aren't the Russians eager to promote their Ilyushin 96? It's President Putin's ai
43 Lemurs : Not CO, unless something changes in the next 5-10 years. They don't operate any widebodies domestically except when repositioning aircraft for maint
44 Post contains links and images Halibut : Not sure ? But it might have pissed off Putin when a 96-300 aircraft broke down ! http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-12-27_06-25-06_l27275701_
45 ChiGB1973 : The Ilyushin Il-96-300, designed in 1978 for 11,000-km flights and currently manufactured by the Voronezh Aviation-Construction Holding, has been in r
46 Zkojh : A Russian newspaper (Vedomosti) reports that the national airline Aeroflot plans to lease 22 Boeing 787s.
47 RedChili : They also got rid of Airbuses (A310) at the same time as they got rid of the B777. And some A310s were replaced by B763s. This is a typical a.net myt
48 Post contains images MD90fan : Maybe they can take a pageo from MS and TK and also order 738/9 for higher density routes.
49 Post contains images MD90fan : Maybe they can take a page from MS and TK and also order 738/9 for higher density routes.
50 BoeingBus : Comgrats SU!!! This just makes me wonder what the EADS shareholders are thinking right now. There is something fundamentally wrong with the A350. I'm
51 AerospaceFan : Thanks for the replies, Halibut and ChiGB1973. The Il-96 looks like a nice plane. I've also read that it's up to 30% cheaper than Western planes of co
52 Blsbls99 : I thought part of Aeroflot's needs were also to obtain suitable replacements for their DC-10 freighter fleet, and that they were searching for MD-11F'
53 UN_B732 : If they lease 22 787s this is a huge increase over their current fleet (I believe they ave something like 7 767s now) I see service to ORD and YUL ret
54 Beaucaire : French radio has broadcasted a report regarding a statement from Aeroflot that the announced order for 787 is not true.... Aeroflot has not taken any
55 RedChili : Correction: UN took SIN after SU abandoned it.
56 Lumberton : No disrespect intended, Beaucaire, but this is just another media report. Who knows what SU will do?
57 Post contains links Jacobin777 : from today's Flight International... "Aeroflot leans towards Boeing 787 selection Russia�s Aeroflot has selected the Boeing 787 over the Airbus A
58 Hjulicher : I think that with the 22 to 28 new aircraft, SU will use them not just on international routes, but also domestic ones, as Russia is a huge country. M
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